Avoiding a Challenge

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**paidinfull**

This came up in one of my games and I'd seen it mentioned in my group so I figured I'd bring it up here.

My opponent was under the impression he could avoid a challenge by placing his character in the rear of his unit outside of engaged models at the start of combat. Sounded legit so I agreed. When it cam up today, I looked it up in the rules and this is what I found:

p64
To Issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in combat to be the challenger.

p20
The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23)

p23
At the start of each Initiative step, you must work out whether or not a model locked in combat is also engaged, as described below

You will note that right there it distinguishes between being "locked in close combat" and "engaged". So my interpretation is that while the character might not be "engaged" he/she, along with the unit, is definitely locked in combat. That to me means a character is always viable for challenging or accepting challenges. While the not "engaged" makes some sense, unfortunately since the first step of accepting a challenge (or alternatively not fighting in the combat) is moving the two characters into BTB, they definitely become "engaged" prior to initiative steps for attacking.

Bottom line.
It seems that challenges cannot be avoided.

Am I reading that right?

**rigeld2**

You're right that you can issue a challenge regardless of the models physical position in the combat.

Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.

Under the accepting a challenge section. If he's not engaged (as you said, different from locked in combat) he cannot accept a challenge.

**Lord Yayula**

Yup challenges consist of issuing and accepting by being locked you can issue it, accepting it depends on the engaged models.

**paidinfull**

rigeld2 wrote:
You're right that you can issue a challenge regardless of the models physical position in the combat.

Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.

Under the accepting a challenge section. If he's not engaged (as you said, different from locked in combat) he cannot accept a challenge.

Ah, I see it now.
So a Chaos player, for example, cannot get away with keeping his player in the rear for issuing a challenge, but any player can avoid it by not being eligible to "accept".

Got it.
Thanks.

**40k-noob**

paidinfull wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
You're right that you can issue a challenge regardless of the models physical position in the combat.

Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.

Under the accepting a challenge section. If he's not engaged (as you said, different from locked in combat) he cannot accept a challenge.

Ah, I see it now.
So a Chaos player, for example, cannot get away with keeping his player in the rear for issuing a challenge, but any player can avoid it by not being eligible to "accept".

Got it.
Thanks.

No that is not correct either.

BRB wrote:
Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.

Challenges are issued/accepted at the start of the Combat Subphase, so after Charge moves have been made but before Pile Ins, if the Chaos Character is not engaged, i.e. not within 2" of a friendly model in his unit in btb with the enemy, then that Character cannot issue a challenge.

**Pyrian**

It's kind of a weird piece of text. Due to the way that 6th edition differs from 5th edition, a character that is not engaged is quite likely to be able to fight. So, it basically reads "Characters that can't fight, including many that can..."

**40k-noob**

I think the rule should be amended to say if the enemy Character is not engaged at the time of Challenges then it counts as an automatic refusal.

That will keep people from trying to hide characters.

**paidinfull**

Got it.

Seems like it's actually very easy to avoid issuing and accepting a challenge.

**Praxiss**

I suppose. but if you're playing Chaos you kind of want to issue those challenges to get your rolls on the Boon table.

**Lordhat**

Praxiss wrote:
I suppose. but if you're playing Chaos you kind of want to issue those challenges to get your rolls on the Boon table.

Unless you don't like rolling on the boon table.

**Pyrian**

paidinfull wrote:
Seems like it's actually very easy to avoid issuing and accepting a challenge.

It's pretty easy to setup a situation where it's very difficult for your character to be challenged when you're charged. Random charge distance makes it a bit trickier when you're charging - "oops I rolled a 10, now he's in!" And if the combat continues another round, you will most likely all be engaged!

**AresX8**

Your opponent is correct. He can avoid challenges by model placement, I originally covered this here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/600/456724.page#4506193

AresX8 wrote:Here's the breakdown of how he can't accept the challenge or be picked out by Precision Strikes:

1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.

2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:

- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.

3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.

4. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.

5. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of his PK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.

6. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.

**Fragile**

Lordhat wrote:
Praxiss wrote:
I suppose. but if you're playing Chaos you kind of want to issue those challenges to get your rolls on the Boon table.

Unless you don't like rolling on the boon table.

Or know you'll get eaten by that big nasty MC.

**Happyjew**

Well, except for Necrons, my Trygon Prime, does enjoy the fleshy meat inside.

On a side note, the last game I played as Nids (vs DA), Mawloc charged a Land Raider, Smash'd and blew it up, got charged by a Walker so he Smash'd and blew it up. Then Regenerated the 1 Wound lost from a bop on the nose.

**WolvesForTheWolfGod**

Don't have my BRB with me, but I remember this coming up the other week, and I am pretty sure I remember the BRB saying you can only make challenges if you are engaged at the start of the fight sub phase, but anyone is eligible to accept a challenge. I don't think there is anyway possible to get out of being challenged other then to refuse it.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

WolvesForTheWolfGod wrote:
Don't have my BRB with me, but I remember this coming up the other week, and I am pretty sure I remember the BRB saying you can only make challenges if you are engaged at the start of the fight sub phase, but anyone is eligible to accept a challenge. I don't think there is anyway possible to get out of being challenged other then to refuse it.

You can, it feels a bit cheesy sometimes though. Could've done it today, but it was a game for pure fun. Regardless My Warboss/Bike managed to snip Kharne somehow.

**Kharrak**

This is exactly how I've used my ork Nobs to avoid being challenged, and then having them move in in their initiative phase and strike. It's handy, but it can be tricky to pull off at times. Having lots of bodies in your unit helps to pull this off tremendously.

**Tarrasq**

WolvesForTheWolfGod wrote:
Don't have my BRB with me, but I remember this coming up the other week, and I am pretty sure I remember the BRB saying you can only make challenges if you are engaged at the start of the fight sub phase, but anyone is eligible to accept a challenge. I don't think there is anyway possible to get out of being challenged other then to refuse it.

You dont need your rulebook to read the thread do you? If a character is not engaged at the start of the fight subphase that character can neither issue nor accept challenges. Being unengaged is like your model doesnt exist. It cant attack, challenge, be struck or shot at. Its just a slow little speed bump that enemy models have to go around or charge at.

This is just another example of the pile in at initiative watering down start of the fight abilities or rules. Others include whip coils, MSS, etc.

**paidinfull**

Praxiss wrote:
I suppose. but if you're playing Chaos you kind of want to issue those challenges to get your rolls on the Boon table.

You actually don't need to be in a challenge to get a Boon roll. Not sure if you knew that or not. With Precision Strike and even simple AP value you can distinguish your characters attacks. Just as long as he "kills an enemy character" he gets that roll. 6s To Hit lets you allocate and Wound Allocation offers you some control over when AP attacks are applied. It's not as hard to get that roll as you might have first thought...

**Rift**

Both Characters need to be engaged to issue or accept a challenge, pg 64 BRB….

“Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.”

Further down under accepting a challenge….

“Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.”

Pretty straight forward, I think.

**don_mondo**

Rift wrote:
Both Characters need to be engaged to issue or accept a challenge, pg 64 BRB….

“Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges.”

Further down under accepting a challenge….

“Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges.”

Pretty straight forward, I think.

Yep, all it requires is reading the entire rule.........................

**UrsoerTheSquid**

I thought that if you didn't want a certain model to fight a challenge you simply pick a different model in that unit to fight, the opponent can only nominate a model to fight from his unit and the defending player picks his, if you don't want someone fighting in a challenge pick a peon to do it for them " Nominate one of the characters in your unit to be the challengee".... "your opponent has probably decided which of your characters he wants to fight... but the final choice is yours"

**rigeld2**

Sure - but if you only have one character in a unit (extremely common) you'd like a way to avoid it if possible.