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So we all know that shard of Khaine resides within each craftworld as an Avatar of Khaine. And IIRC correctly, when Avatars are defeated in battle they crumble to ash?

If so, or just in general, how does the avatar's remains or essence get back to the craftworld? I'd assume it can't just be his spirit because you'd still need some physical matter or form to summon the avatar into. Any ideas?

They end up being puzzles for the Eldar Farseers, just like you might go for a 500.000 piece puzzle.

The Avatar's body is just a hunk of Iron. I assume they could simply make a new one. And the Spirit thing just goes back to the shrine on its own or something.

They go to the pile, and it's a big pile as of 5th edition.

 Lord Rogukiel wrote:


If so, or just in general, how does the avatar's remains or essence get back to the craftworld? I'd assume it can't just be his spirit because you'd still need some physical matter or form to summon the avatar into. Any ideas?

Space Elf magicks... Tricksy and false...

I don't think it is ever covered, the shards just appeared on the Craftworlds, when the Avatar goes down, the shard transports back to the Craftworld. A new Young King needs to be crowned, etc, etc and then the Avatar can be reawakened again. Although I guess its possible that the shard never leaves the Craftworld, that the young king who becomes the Avatar is just united with the sleeping Avatar through the shard via transference. Sort of like the body is immolated and the shard draws the soul through and places it into the sleeping Avatar body.

Hard to explain... But like in this vid. Blade enters Pegas and comes out Tekkaman/Teknoman. Blade is the Young King, Pegas is the Shard of Khaine, Tekkaman is the woken Avatar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk9w3ChokA0

I do often wonder if the Avatars existence points to Vaul having both survived and escaped Slaneesh, etc as I can't imagine there being too many smiths capable of creating such a thing as the Avatars.

Thanks for the answer and vid. I thought that the avatars where shard of khaine's body though? I don't recall seeing any fluff saying that they were crafted by Vaul.

 Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Thanks for the answer and vid. I thought that the avatars where shard of khaine's body though? I don't recall seeing any fluff saying that they were crafted by Vaul.

I don't think there is. I think all that was ever written is Khaine gets flung into the real world, shatters and those shards scatter to the craftworlds where an Avatar 'appears'. I'm not aware of any fluff that states the statues were there, were made, etc. Just that the shards scatter and the sleeping Avatar 'appears' where the shard lands.

But just in my thoughts, I can't imagine there being many that could craft a statue that comes alive as molten/living metal. Pretty sure Atlas Infernal makes mention of an Avatar sitting in his throne asleep in a crashed Craftworld. So to me, it would indicate someone with great crafting skill, so most likely Vaul. Otherwise each Craftworld would have needed a craftsman who could make the exact same thing, unless of course the Avatar statues were already on the Craftworlds and the shards introduced later brings about their living ability. But that wouldn't answer the Wailing Doom, which can change into different hand held weapons, so again, I'd fall to Vaul being the one behind them.

Chances are its just an idea they wrote down and published because it was cool but never intended it to be thought out. Much like many other things 40k.

Hmm, that's an interesting theory, I've never thought of it that way. The way I pictured it is that the statues appeard there as likenesses of Khaine's appearance, though I never thought about the what the Wailing Doom's ability to take on different forms ever meant.

But then this begs the question how did Vaul make those statues? IIRC, Khaine was one of the last Eldar gods to fall, with Cegorach hiding in the webway and Isha being imprisoned in Nurgle's garden. As such, Vaul would be already consumed by Slaanesh by the time Khaine was fractured in the avatar shards. So how could he have forged the avatars?

Vaul was crippled and chained to his anvil. Thats pretty much where his story ends, crippled, chained to his anvil. Cegorach was in the webway, Khaine fronted to do battle, Isha is believed by a single craftworld to have ended up being saved by Nurgle and now tastes the creations from his cauldron. He's still worshipped on Craftworld Kaelor which seems to take little to no part in the events in the 40k galaxy since it spends most of its time on the outskirts of the galaxy (Likely outside the reach of the Astronomicon) and is virtually forgotten by the rest of the Eldar and Harlequins, other than it passes through an area normally avoided by Eldar, every thousand years.

So it could be possible, if Khaine chained him up, Khaine kept him close by. Khaine emerged to do battle, leaving Vaul sitting at his anvil. Slaneesh battled Khaine and kept him til Khorne came knocking and Khaine was 'freed'. Its a rude thing to say but how many people would view a cripple as a threat? Vaul could have been left to "rot", or if Khaine left him and no one came by him Vaul made the Avatars out of a continued part of Lileath's prophecy of Khaine's 'death'.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
They end up being puzzles for the Eldar Farseers, just like you might go for a 500.000 piece puzzle.

Lol...or UM assemble it, so that Calgar has a playing toy.....

SkyD wrote:
Vaul was crippled and chained to his anvil. Thats pretty much where his story ends, crippled, chained to his anvil. Cegorach was in the webway, Khaine fronted to do battle, Isha is believed by a single craftworld to have ended up being saved by Nurgle and now tastes the creations from his cauldron. He's still worshipped on Craftworld Kaelor which seems to take little to no part in the events in the 40k galaxy since it spends most of its time on the outskirts of the galaxy (Likely outside the reach of the Astronomicon) and is virtually forgotten by the rest of the Eldar and Harlequins, other than it passes through an area normally avoided by Eldar, every thousand years.

So it could be possible, if Khaine chained him up, Khaine kept him close by. Khaine emerged to do battle, leaving Vaul sitting at his anvil. Slaneesh battled Khaine and kept him til Khorne came knocking and Khaine was 'freed'. Its a rude thing to say but how many people would view a cripple as a threat? Vaul could have been left to "rot", or if Khaine left him and no one came by him Vaul made the Avatars out of a continued part of Lileath's prophecy of Khaine's 'death'.

So you think that Vaul is still alive? Or at least remained alive long enough to forge the Avatars? The eldar codex states on page 6 that "Two Eldar gods survive the Fall", Cegorach and Khaine.

Though one craftworld believes Isha may have survived, I think that Vaul would still have been consumed by Slaanesh. After all, he is still a god, and though crippled is some source of power to the every hungry Slaanesh.

It's possible that when an Avatar is "killed" the pieces of the body somehow remove themselves back to the throne on the Craftworld, to be reawakened again by another Young King's sacrifice.

Or that somehow inside the throne room the Young King is physically transformed into an incarnation of the Avatar, but not the actual thing. Er, I guess you could call it the "Avatar of the Avatar".

Or maybe the iron statue doesn't actually have anything to do with the Avatar except for being a convenient vessel, and the Avatar itself just goes back to the shrine to await a new statue and Young King when it's destroyed?

I think thats how it is. The actual body is just a hunk of Iron, easily replaced. The actual Avatar itself isn't a physical object, its a spirit that posesses the Iron body. And if its destroyed it just goes back to the craftworld.

 Lord Rogukiel wrote:


So you think that Vaul is still alive? Or at least remained alive long enough to forge the Avatars? The eldar codex states on page 6 that "Two Eldar gods survive the Fall", Cegorach and Khaine.

Though one craftworld believes Isha may have survived, I think that Vaul would still have been consumed by Slaanesh. After all, he is still a god, and though crippled is some source of power to the every hungry Slaanesh.

I'm merely expressing that it is not impossible. Codex Eldar was published in 2006, at that time like you quoted 2 Eldar Gods get the survival status, the 3rd edition Codex makes mention of only Khaine if I remember right and tells nothing of the Gods being Eaten. Between 3rd and 4th several characters and/or units and upgrades also disappear. No further information, just gone.
It was in 2008 that the idea of Isha surviving was published in Codex Chaos Daemons. So with how things change between codex books and over the years, it is possible that Vaul survived. But its yet to be written, or its left up to players to think out like the missing Astartes Legions. Some codex books make hints towards certain ideas but GW doesn't confirm them. The Gauntlets of Ultramar go from being the weapons of a Daemon Prince taken and used by Roboute Guilliman after he defeated the DP in their original writing to relics of Ultramar stolen by a Daemon Prince and won back by Guilliman. But a hint to their original status as Chaos weapons is put in a picture in the Inquisitor rulebook, same gauntlets in design, but without the imperial embellishment. (The Gauntlets are meant to be the only pair of weapons of that sort, but it also explains why the Ultramarines are quite anti them being studied, depending on the source of that information. Some say they won't allow it, others say that they can't be studied as they can't be opened up).

Ultimately the codex books are set to make an army, the fluff comes second, or in some cases not at all. Even if it contradicts things or is later contradicted.

My understanding of how the Avatar is created is that one of the craftworld/exodite world Exarchs is sacrificed as the Young Prince and he is transformed into the Avatar, the shard remains where it always stays. So when the Avatar dies I would imagine the body crumbles to dust as the essense of Khaine returns to the Warp/shard