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I still have 159pts for this list that I am taking to a tourney next week.
Aegis Defense Line w/Quad gun- 100

HQ
Librarian- 100 (attaches to scouts if i dont combat squad a tactical squad)

ELITES
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125

FAST ATTACK
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100

TROOPS
Tactical Squad w/ML, Flamer, Rhino - 205
Tactical Squad w/ML, Flamer, Rhino - 205
9 Scout Snipers w/Telion, Heavy Bolter, Camo Cloaks- 211

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Predator w/Auto- las- 120

I am thinking to get another squad of attack bikes, give the Libby TDA and a SS, and decking out the Tacs some.

Or, get 1 more attack bike and another libby to.

If you plan of combat squadding one of the tacs, some gear for the sarge and a razorback might be nice.

Stormtalon would fit in your points.

You look to be a little light on long range Anti tank fire. The TLAC dreads are good for popping light armor, but will struggle against anything tough. All the MM bikes should help, but I like a little more long range support in my lists.

I thought about a Starmtalon, but every game i have played with one, or against, it has done absolutely nothing. It has only ever made its points back once in like 5 games.

And what would you suggest for more long range anti-heavy tank? Maybe a dread with Las and Missiles? Or maybe a dread in drop pod with MM?

You can change the scout HB to ML, far more useful for me.
I am not certain you need the aegis line.
Pretty much you are set on ignoring flyers and a sole quad gun is not efficient imho.

You could use the remaining points for a Stenguard Squad.

How does this look?

Aegis Defense Line w/Quad gun- 100

HQ
Librarian w/TDA and SS- 140

ELITES
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125

FAST ATTACK
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100

TROOPS
Tactical Squad w/ML, Flamer, Rhino - 205
Tactical Squad w/PC, PG, Rhino - 220
9 Scout Snipers w/Telion, Heavy Bolter, Camo Cloaks- 211

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Predator w/Auto- las- 120

Marshall Ragnar wrote:
How does this look?

Aegis Defense Line w/Quad gun- 100

HQ
Librarian w/TDA and SS- 140

ELITES
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125

FAST ATTACK
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100

TROOPS
Tactical Squad w/ML, Flamer, Rhino - 205
Tactical Squad w/PC, PG, Rhino - 220
9 Scout Snipers w/Telion, Heavy Bolter, Camo Cloaks- 211

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Predator w/Auto- las- 120

I'm not sure you'll need two thunderfires at 1750. Maybe combat squad the tacticals and use the points to put them in razorbacks. Just my two cents.

This is pretty good... but id say do attack bikes in groups of 3, not 2. In the end resilience is a touch more important than splitting fire. Especially since they will be your primary source of quick contesting and WILL end up being charged.

If you are going to use telion, then dont do a quad gun, use an icarus instead and have him man it and save 15 points. That way you get a bs6 lascannon with precision shot, pretty powerful stuff. Furthermore putting them being the ADL with his stealth and camo gives them 2+ cover, so they wont be dying due to shooting.

2 TFCs is a little much, get a vindicator to round yourself out instead. It spreads your threats around and gives your opponent another really big gun to worry about (that and you dont have a lot of str 10 which can be key against av14 and MCs and the like).

mm, So I would also upgrade on your rhinos to a razorback and potentially lose the other one. Might as well get the HB and you're going to typically combat squad at least one of your squads (likely the ML flamer one). This advice is iffier though, could go either way. It sort of depends on hwo you load up on your libby. I tend to have him go gate for the mobility, so therefore I have him port around a 10 man tac squad and save myself a rhino in the process.

Now if you allow FW things get more.. interesting with advice, but for now your list seems pretty solid.

Where do the points for the vindicator come from? At 1750, it's perfectly fine to have only two heavy support options.

For me.. Thunder fire cannons.. Gone! Camo cloaks.. Gone! and Quad gun... Switched out for lascannon! that gives you enough for two vindi's with dozer blades, I'm telling you man, they are the saviour of those tanks.. I use them enough to know

Don't underestimate the thunderfire's ability to ignore cover. I think that at 1750, two vindicators are overkill. It's personal style, though.

Oh woah no no, TFCs are amazing, always have 1. Sorry I guess I wasnt clear

Lose 1 TFC + the 15 points from the downgrade to Icarus for telion to rget a vindicator.

So the HS slots become:

TFC
Vindi
Predator with Auto-las



You should ALWAYS have a TFC somewhere (even pod armies tend to be using it now), it's just too useful not to be in there because of the difficult terrain || anti-cover || str 6 wound generation. It's just that 2 of them is a bit much, so it's better to have a touch more variety in ytour threats is all.

That seems reasonable, certainly for an all comers list. The vanilla marines can more easily afford three heavies at 1750. As BA, I tend to bring only two.

mm yeah for vanilla marines we need our toys to really stay competative at all. Our boys remain solid just... I would argue a touch overcosted (i would love 15 point marines, but that likely wont happen, and our scouts with camo shouldnt be 16 either, or at least give them bs4)

Thus we usually fill our HS slots up pretty quick, and for me at least my FA slot pretty fast too (even faster than elite), but that's mainly because i love bikes so much, and ive been having fun experimenting with a dual HF speeder.

It's a 60 point suicide with dual HF with deepstrike, definitely... interesting. Can do some serious dmg (i dont do MM speeders because I have my bikes for that), orr... get glanced to death by bolters lol. *shrug*.

Putting flamers on units that get overwatch is now much better than putting them on things like speeders. For the BA, I don't see using too many speeders in 6th. Not when my attack bikes get FNP. For the vanilla dex, the attack bikes still have advantages, like fighting back in HTH.

It's true, w ejust cant give flamers to our attack bikes (i dont believe) just MMs. There arnt a lot of ways for vanilla marines to get HFs on bodies. There was a rumour that tacticals would be able to get them which would change my list a bit (probably some pods added), but for now it's a HF speeder.

Sternguard can for sure buuut they're 125 base without anything which is a wee bit more than my speeder.

Okay, deep striking flaming death is definitely something the BA do better than vanilla. The shotgun furioso in a pod is certainly more effective than the poor suicide speeder.

However, vanilla can still drop pod a dreadnought with a single heavy flamer, or drop pod sternguard with combi flamers. But for them, I prefer combi melta, since they have no cover save ammo.

Its true, though we do get the seige dread from FW which.. evens things a bit in the flaming death department.

I agree it's more effective than the speeder, but then the speeder likely wont be deepstriking all thatttt often because of ADLs, but it's certainly worth trying, and the scatter ususally isnt that costly because if you do scatter you can always just go all out and get that 4+ cover save.

More likely he will either be in reserve or otherwise behind cover and moving 12 to fire off ze flamers.

*shrug*, it's cheap and something to do with 60 points right now. sternguard/dreadnoughts are obviously loads better but then.. they are costlier too.

5 sternguard with pod and 5 combi is 185. That's 3x my speeder and a LOT costlier a suicide.

Similarly even a seige dread with pod is something like 160-170. As is the furisio around that range too.


I just have the speeder for lulz right now and because its just a little bit of the unexpected. I didnt think my list needed a 4th bike and rhinos (which are about as fragile as my speeder anyways, and dont have always cover) didnt seem necessary for a gating libby. Thus speeder it is!

NOTE: to be clear, it's for a 1500 point list! thus i cant otherwise get more bikes or other more durable deep striking things. to replace the speeder. I just realize that might explain my reasoning a bit more too. My list changes a bit when we get to 1750-1850.

It's all good. As a marine player, I try not to suicide anything, including my drop pod troops. Clever placement utilizing terran and the pod itself for cover can help.

Also, I can be useful to use 3 drop pods and drop maybe a dreadnought and a squad on one far flank. This can be followed by the 3rd pod in subsequent turns.

You can also add cheap locator beacons to bring in more reserves.

I'm gonna be a jerk and TL;DR here.

There are three, huge problems with this list:
1. You have scouts
2. You have no sustainable anti-armour
3. you have no anti-flyer

Firstly. Get rid of the scouts. Please. Another squad of tactical marines as you've made 'em here. Upgrade the Rhinos to Razorbacks. (sure, you can't shoot your flamer, but a razorback is just as survivable and you get an extra anti-infantry weapon for only 5 points. You're going to have to combat squad anyway).

Reasoning:
Scouts, suck.

There's no two ways about it. I'm sorry. You're thinking "but cover saves!" but no. Cover saves aren't that useful in a SM army and scout marines of that squad size shouldn't even try. Sniper rifles on scout marines suck.

2.
One Predator will not last you in a combat. get rid of the attack bikes, save for maybe one squad (at most of 2 with multi-meltas)
Now if you get rid of a TFC (with razorbacks and tactical marines, you do not need that much anti-infantry, even in an infantry metagame.) and replace it with a predator and suddenly you have a working option for your army's anti-armour. (ACLC actually also works well against monsters and heavy infantry.)

3.

Flyers...

You need at least one Stormtalon. The lovely thing about stormtalons is that even if the opponent brings no aerial support, you suddenly have this unit that can put out an insane amount of hurt on medium armour and infantry of all sorts. (Autocannon and missile launcher is possible THE best combination in the game, if you ask me. It can fill out anti-infantry and anti-armour roles very well.) TBH, I'd look at two. That way, you can always get aerial superiority over your opponent.
(a storm talon can knock out most enemy flyers very effectively, though sometimes it struggles against ork flyers that are just too willing to evade.)

Trust me, once you've got aerial superiority with two or three of these bad boys, you'll never have a reason to complain.

I guess I can't really tell you what to do here, but this list will struggle. SM isn't what it used to be, but it does have a few outstanding choices and an answer to everything.

Edit: My suggestions weren't all allowed by force organisation. Apologies.

Is this better? And i still have 25pts.

Aegis Defense Line w/Quad gun- 100

HQ
Librarian - 100

ELITES
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon w/TML- 155
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100

TROOPS
Tactical Squad w/Lascannon, Flamer, Rhino - 215
Tactical Squad w/PC, PG, Rhino - 220
Tactical Squad w/Las/Plas Razorback- 165

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Predator w/Auto- las- 120

Marshall Ragnar wrote:
Is this better? And i still have 25pts.

Aegis Defense Line w/Quad gun- 100

HQ
Librarian - 100

ELITES
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon w/TML- 155
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100

TROOPS
Tactical Squad w/Lascannon, Flamer, Rhino - 215
Tactical Squad w/PC, PG, Rhino - 220
Tactical Squad w/Las/Plas Razorback- 165

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Predator w/Auto- las- 120

I think that looks pretty good to me. You just have to play it a few times now and find out if something is not working. The *only* thing I'll point out is las/plas is not too efficient for vanilla dex marines. You might want an assault cannon razor back instead.

Give the libby terminator armour and there is ur 25 points. Makes him/his squad a bit more resilient.

That would also pretty much remove the need for 1 rhino (you want a libby termi to be with a full 10 man if you can). So what I would do with those 35 extra points is still get a vindi and lose 1 TFC for it, which still leaves you with 20 points, enough to convert the other rhino to a razorback to give ytou some more heavy weapon options orr dozer blades or something of that nature.

I notice you but the lascannon and flamer in the same squad.. i would actuall make that a MM or ML instead, as that would be the squad you want your temi-libby with and potentially gating around or otherwise getting close to the enemy (and the flamer then being anti charge. Ideally in the future if we ever get HFs for our tactical marines it would be HF as the heavy weapon and MG as the light, be more ideal) I would then convert your PC squad to have the lascannon instead, which saves you 5 points to help with that heavy weapon option in the second razorback.

But otherwise seems likke a good balanced list, should serve you well.

Yeah, you can put one tac squad on foot behind the aegis line. They can man the quad gun, and the libby can support. Only problem is that vanilla dex libbies don't get divination........... a quad gun and heavy from the tactical with divination would be hot. I'll have to keep that in mind for my lists.

Marshall Ragnar wrote:
Is this better? And i still have 25pts.

Aegis Defense Line w/Quad gun- 100

HQ
Librarian - 100

ELITES
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon w/TML- 155
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100

TROOPS
Tactical Squad w/Lascannon, Flamer, Rhino - 215
Tactical Squad w/PC, PG, Rhino - 220
Tactical Squad w/Las/Plas Razorback- 165

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Predator w/Auto- las- 120

No. Your first list above is better. Chuck the stormtalon. You do have anti flyer. It's Telion own the quad gun and 2 twin linked dreads. The talon has little resiliency and is to costly.

Now take your very first list up top and add in the following.

HQ's - Captain, bike, artificer armor, powerfist - 175.

Take out the camo cloaks to save points. Telion gives the whole unit stealth already.

Now attach the Captain to a unit of mm attack bikes and let him tank for the unit. Take incoming fire on his 2+ save to save the attack bikes. You really only have to survive one turn of fire and then you are in the enemy lines with mm attack bikes. Break the Captain off if needed to go punch another tank and you have all the antitank you could ever want.

Leave the Libby in there because null zone is to powerful against wraiths.

Telion gives the whole unit stealth, but camo-cloaks stack with this to grant +2 to cover. Combined with an Aegis Defense Line, the Scouts will have 2+ cover saves without having to go to ground-- just something to consider.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Marshall Ragnar wrote:
Is this better? And i still have 25pts.

Aegis Defense Line w/Quad gun- 100

HQ
Librarian - 100

ELITES
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125
Dreadnought w/2 Twin-linked Autocannons- 125

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon w/TML- 155
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100
2 Attack Bikes w/MM - 100

TROOPS
Tactical Squad w/Lascannon, Flamer, Rhino - 215
Tactical Squad w/PC, PG, Rhino - 220
Tactical Squad w/Las/Plas Razorback- 165

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Predator w/Auto- las- 120

No. Your first list above is better. Chuck the stormtalon. You do have anti flyer. It's Telion own the quad gun and 2 twin linked dreads. The talon has little resiliency and is to costly.

Now take your very first list up top and add in the following.

HQ's - Captain, bike, artificer armor, powerfist - 175.

Take out the camo cloaks to save points. Telion gives the whole unit stealth already.

Now attach the Captain to a unit of mm attack bikes and let him tank for the unit. Take incoming fire on his 2+ save to save the attack bikes. You really only have to survive one turn of fire and then you are in the enemy lines with mm attack bikes. Break the Captain off if needed to go punch another tank and you have all the antitank you could ever want.

Leave the Libby in there because null zone is to powerful against wraiths.

First, this is assuming he has a captain bike model. Which is a big if. But I do like the idea.

I'm not sure I'd so easily dismiss the stormtalon. The BA at 1750 are forced to choose between aegis line and stormraven, but the vanilla marines have the luxury of being able to bring both. You can't rely on the quad gun necessarily because opponents can put terrain in front of it or just shoot it off the table with their heavy support. Opponents are just as likely to prioritize the quad gun over your dreads or the predator with their antitank fire.

Looking at this list, I'm not sure that in practice you can afford to spend the rifleman shots on flyers. There is only one non-fast auto/las pred. The vanilla auto/las pred lays down far less consistent fire than its BA counterpart because on turns where it has to reposition, it's getting either one good shot or all snap shots. You will need to be firing at your opponents transports/ground monstrous creatures with the dreads I think. Shooting them at flyers in some ways defeats the main strength of rifleman dreads because you go from (1-(.333*.333)) 89% accuracy to (1-(.8333*.8333)) 31% accuracy. That's worse than BS 2. I've seen games lost by people taking too many low percentage shots against flyers. It's not like the stormtalon can kill some ground targets, either.

The Telion scheme is nice, but you are just one deep striking heavy flamer away from a disaster if you lean on that squad too heavily. Cover is great, but people are figuring this out and compensating appropriately. I would strongly advise against two HQ at 1750. Marines HQs are very costly and hurt your model count very quickly. Go with the captain he described or bring the libby. Don't do both at 1750.

So I think we're starting to get a bit confusing for the poor guy, annd more than a bit pedantic.

We're throwing it too many things to try without necessarily focusing on what a list needs, and what it's weaknesses are.

For example, the captain on the bike. A pretty good idewa at 175 points to protect the bikes. But then... you're spending 175 points to protect 3 meltas and allow them to get in close. You could, instead, just get 3 more bikes to get 3 more meltas (and 3 more t5 wounds) and save 25 points. Or you could free up 5 more points to get a 5 man combi-melta sterguard in a pod and just put them wherever the hell you want even better.

But all of that misses the point, which is to say, is more melta/more protected melta really what he needs? What is in the OP's meta? He already has a Las/plas razorback, a man-las, and 4 MM bikes, and a predator with auto-las. Thus it seems to me he has his AT covered pretty well. Furthermore the TFC covers anti-infantry. Finally my (still suggested) Vindicator again covers both AT, anti meq, and more anti-infantry, so there is a lot of overlap in his list in those 2 areas, which is great! Therefore a captain on a bike, which a good idea, seems to be a bit of "win-more" instead of filling in a hole in his army.

So, then, what are the weaknesses? Deep striking could be a problem, which does hurt a telion based unit, and Air is always a problem. Therefore I still agree with the above that the stormtalon is still a decent use of points. The rifleman are good at popping transports and flyers, and the gun and talon give you nice backup in the area. Furthermore the talon helps with mobility, you just have to be careful it doesnt get one shotted by an ADL.


In the end we need to stop throwing toys at him and focus on the balance of the list and what armies/army types it doesnt have covered, which is why i still think list 2 is pretty solid. He is correct a libby is good due to null zone, and getting gate as your second power provides critical mobility, so i still also suggest you give him termi armour to make him a touch more survivable (and make the 10 man squad he is with more survivable as a result), but my adjustments are minor and cheap hehe.

I was just trying to demonstrate the vastly reduced utility of riflemen dreads for AA.

I neglected to mention the fact that OP does have a decent amount of distributed anti tank, and that even unprotected attack bikes can be frustrating to kill, especially for their points.

I don't see the Telion squad in the lists with the distributed anti-tank fire, though. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong list. Also, most of the anti-tank weapons in this list are also anti 2+ armor, which is always a plus.

Don't forget he can use his attack bikes and lascannons to kill quad guns before the storm talon arrives perhaps.