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Greetings;

I had a conflict with a fellow gamer earlier today about the hammerhead's main gun.

Situation

A unit of striking scorpions clumped up behind a wall when a hammerhead comes up around the corner a bit and shoots.

Hammerhads main gun shoots it's large blast at my striking scorpions seeing only 2 of them yet clipping many scorpions with it's hit.

One burst cannon sees all of the scorpions and shoots normally. The other burst cannon sees nothing and doesn't shoot.

At this point i debated that the main gun can only kill 2 of my guys when my friend debated the opposite opinion. I know that the rulebook says look from each weapon for cover saves as they are different units, but that doesn't cover LoS issues like this.

What is the correct answer here? And if you could reference a page that would swell.

Thanks in advance

If a model is in Line of Sight from any of the weapons on the vehicle, then those guys can die.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If a model is in Line of Sight from any of the weapons on the vehicle, then those guys can die.

Blast weapons fire at a squad of ten, which the weapon can only see 2, blast scatters and hits 5 and wounds 5, so your saying it can only wound 2 out of those 5 models?

 Diezel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If a model is in Line of Sight from any of the weapons on the vehicle, then those guys can die.

Blast weapons fire at a squad of ten, which the weapon can only see 2, blast scatters and hits 5 and wounds 5, so your saying it can only wound 2 out of those 5 models?

Blasts are kind of flawed in the BGB. They don't seem to be allowed to work as they intended them to.

LOS is determined from each of the weapon mounts. If there is no LOS to a model from that mount, then the weapon cannot wound that model. In this scenario, 2 models would die to the blast.

""When firing a vehicle's weapons point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons' rnounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or model" pg 72

 Diezel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If a model is in Line of Sight from any of the weapons on the vehicle, then those guys can die.

Blast weapons fire at a squad of ten, which the weapon can only see 2, blast scatters and hits 5 and wounds 5, so your saying it can only wound 2 out of those 5 models?

It depends. The Blast Marker rules are really flawed.

Fragile wrote:
LOS is determined from each of the weapon mounts. If there is no LOS to a model from that mount, then the weapon cannot wound that model. In this scenario, 2 models would die to the blast.

""When firing a vehicle's weapons point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or model" pg 72

Not true, all models that are in Line of Sight of any model in the unit that is firing can die. (The vehicle rules determine per gun instead of per model).

However in the OP's situation the "main gun shoots it's large blast at my striking scorpions seeing only 2 of them yet clipping many scorpions with it's hit."

Also "One burst cannon sees all of the scorpions and shoots normally"

So since all of the scorpions are in line of sight to at least one weapon in the unit, then all of the scorpions can die.

To be clear, the blast did not scatter. The center of the blast was on a model the hammerheads weapon saw. The striking scorpions were clumped up so it clipped a lot of guys (yet seeing only 2)

The burst cannon can only kill what it can see, but as for blast weapons... it's up in the air honestly.

Going with blast can kill regardless of sight though.

There seems to be some confusion.
First regarding the blast, although only two models are in LOS from the weapon, it still hits (and can generate wounds) regardless of models outside of LOS.
Second, since one weapon can draw LOS on every model, the vehicle can draw LOS on every model and every model can be wounded.
If the burst cannon that could draw LOS on all of the models could not have drawn LOS (having been destroyed earlier for example) only the two models in LOS would have been able to have Wounds allocated to them.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
LOS is determined from each of the weapon mounts. If there is no LOS to a model from that mount, then the weapon cannot wound that model. In this scenario, 2 models would die to the blast.

""When firing a vehicle's weapons point them at the target and then trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or model" pg 72

Not true, all models that are in Line of Sight of any model in the unit that is firing can die. (The vehicle rules determine per gun instead of per model).

However in the OP's situation the "main gun shoots it's large blast at my striking scorpions seeing only 2 of them yet clipping many scorpions with it's hit."

Also "One burst cannon sees all of the scorpions and shoots normally"

So since all of the scorpions are in line of sight to at least one weapon in the unit, then all of the scorpions can die.

 Happyjew wrote:
There seems to be some confusion.
First regarding the blast, although only two models are in LOS from the weapon, it still hits (and can generate wounds) regardless of models outside of LOS.
Second, since one weapon can draw LOS on every model, the vehicle can draw LOS on every model and every model can be wounded.
If the burst cannon that could draw LOS on all of the models could not have drawn LOS (having been destroyed earlier for example) only the two models in LOS would have been able to have Wounds allocated to them.

This: "If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out the target's cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing unit." Pg 72, Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight.

Seems to contradict what you're saying. You do treat the guns as different units. Though I don't know if cover saves would be incorporated into which models can and can't die. I would personally say that it does.

That only works for cover saves - not for determining if the models are in LOS of the unit at all, which is a different rule on page 16

Weapons are treated as different units only for the purposes of determining cover. Per Out of Sight (BRB, pg 16) "If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it...". Can a model in the firing unit see the model(s)?

This is pretty cut and dry. If it helps you understand invision the hammerhead as a squad of guys. As long as all the models can be seen by any model in the unit and they can all see the unit then they can kill every model in the enemy unit.

 Tomb King wrote:
This is pretty cut and dry. If it helps you understand invision the hammerhead as a squad of guys. As long as all the models can be seen by any model in the unit and they can all see the unit then they can kill every model in the enemy unit.

This is not pretty cut and dry. The confusion comes from p. 72 second paragraph where it says specifically in some situations to treat the weapons as different units.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
This is pretty cut and dry. If it helps you understand invision the hammerhead as a squad of guys. As long as all the models can be seen by any model in the unit and they can all see the unit then they can kill every model in the enemy unit.

This is not pretty cut and dry. The confusion comes from p. 72 second paragraph where it says specifically in some situations to treat the weapons as different units.

p. 72 is for Cover saves, not for Wounds.

So the fact it's called the "Vehicles and Line of Sight" section doesn't mean anything. Got it.

Thats an interesting question.
RAW - the weapons are treated as separate firing units when los issues come up.

I am inclined to agree that the main gun could only kill those it could draw los to. In this case I would, as the owner of the Hammerhead, state that the wounds from the maingun be resolved before the other weapon to avoid loss of wounds.

Not seeing where the problem is. The main gun has LOS on 2 members of the enemy unit. According to blast rules on pg 33 of the BRB blast weapons can hit and wound units out of LOS. There is no issue. The striking scorpions could all be killed.

@ Backlash, I do not think wounding is the issue, its the wound allocation and casualty remove rules in question. specifically the out of sight rule on pg 16.

 Prophet40k wrote:
@ Backlash, I do not think wounding is the issue, its the wound allocation and casualty remove rules in question. specifically the out of sight rule on pg 16.

that's exactly the issue, if memory serves from a previous thread.

 Kevin949 wrote:
So the fact it's called the "Vehicles and Line of Sight" section doesn't mean anything. Got it.

The vehicle is only "a separate firing unit" when working out cover saves.

The section Talks about how to trace Line of Sight, then the next sentence deals with how to treat models in cover from only some of the vehicles weapons.

That section has nothing to do with the out of sight rules. and we are only given permission to treat each firing weapon on the vehicle as a separate firing unit, when working out cover saves.

"If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out the target's cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing unit." P. 72

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
So the fact it's called the "Vehicles and Line of Sight" section doesn't mean anything. Got it.

The vehicle is only "a separate firing unit" when working out cover saves.

The section Talks about how to trace Line of Sight, then the next sentence deals with how to treat models in cover from only some of the vehicles weapons.

That section has nothing to do with the out of sight rules. and we are only given permission to treat each firing weapon on the vehicle as a separate firing unit, when working out cover saves.

"If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out the target's cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing unit." P. 72

If you break the sentences apart, then you are correct. If you read the paragraph as a whole then you are incorrect.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
So the fact it's called the "Vehicles and Line of Sight" section doesn't mean anything. Got it.

The vehicle is only "a separate firing unit" when working out cover saves.

The section Talks about how to trace Line of Sight, then the next sentence deals with how to treat models in cover from only some of the vehicles weapons.

That section has nothing to do with the out of sight rules. and we are only given permission to treat each firing weapon on the vehicle as a separate firing unit, when working out cover saves.

"If the target unit is in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out the target's cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing unit." P. 72

If you break the sentences apart, then you are correct. If you read the paragraph as a whole then you are incorrect.

In close combat I am allowed to hit models that I am in b2b with. However, if I apply that to shooting who knows maybe my powerfist would get more kills.

Both sentences pertain to vehicle weapons and Line of Sight.

The Period at the end of the first sentence means that the next sentence is a different thought, albeit still pertaining to the overall Line of Sight concept laid out in the title of the section.

The period breaks two different sentences apart for us.