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I'm not sure if this goes into the background forum because of the reason behind my question, but whatever.

I'm thinking of how to do an SM army from fluffy view and decided that I will name all of my models and only rename them if they get insta-killed, or beaten down by a weapon that there is just no way he would not get incapacitated (like monstrous creatures).

Which brings me to my question,

What weapons instant kill Space Marines?

Melta. Krak Missiles. Both instakill even muli wound TT SMs, and a solid hit from either in the fluff does the same.

You could probably do the same when one gets munched in CC. By a Dread, Power-anything, MC, etc.

Of course a lucky lasgun shot can always blow off a SM's head, so its really up to you!

4TheG8erGood wrote:
Melta. Krak Missiles. Both instakill even muli wound TT SMs, and a solid hit from either in the fluff does the same.

You could probably do the same when one gets munched in CC. By a Dread, Power-anything, MC, etc.

Of course a lucky lasgun shot can always blow off a SM's head, so its really up to you!

True. But are there any others?

Power/Force weapons are in there too, I know that... But what else? I want Xeno weapons too!

What weapons instant kill Space Marines? The ones with Strength double their toughness, plus a few special items.

Game-wise? Anything S8+ and AP3- or Force.

Realistically? A direct hit from just about anything the game would equate to S6 or higher would probably do it. An Autocannon shell impacting against a marine's chestplate would shatter every bone in his body and turn his organs to jelly even without penetrating the armor (whereas a near miss might incapacitate a guardsmen with shrapnel from 8 feet away but do nothing to an SM).

That said, marine's aren't invincible, small arms can kill them, you shoot one in the head with a rifle and he doesn't have a helmet on, he's dead.

Kingsley gave me an idea. Go through the index of weapons at the back of the BRB. Look for S8. There ya go!

Do you mean insta kill like in the game (instant death)?
Or instant kill as in "has a really high chance of killing Marines"?

Here's a short list of weapons that inflict ID on marines

- Force Weapons
- Krak Missiles
- Melta
- Dark and Bright Lances
- Heat Ray
- Particle Whip
- Doomsday cannon
- Tachyon Arrow
- Demolisher Cannon
- Battle Cannon
- Rail Gun
- Kustom Mega Blaster
- Any walker with a DCCW
- Carnifex
- Bloodthirster
- Boomgun
- Heavy Gauss Cannon
- Lascannon
- Shokk attack gun (sometimes)
- Power fist (if on a S4+ model)
- Power Klaws
- Psibolt autocannon (have to fail save first)
- Hades Autocannon (have to fail save first)
- Wraithlord in close combat
- D-Cannons
- Those mini D-cannons that Wraithguard have
- Blaster

That's all that comes to mind right now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Do you mean insta kill like in the game (instant death)?
Or instant kill as in "has a really high chance of killing Marines"?

Here's a short list of weapons that inflict ID on marines

- Force Weapons
- Krak Missiles
- Melta
- Dark and Bright Lances
- Heat Ray
- Particle Whip
- Doomsday cannon
- Tachyon Arrow
- Demolisher Cannon
- Battle Cannon
- Rail Gun
- Kustom Mega Blaster
- Any walker with a DCCW
- Carnifex
- Bloodthirster
- Boomgun
- Heavy Gauss Cannon
- Lascannon
- Shokk attack gun (sometimes)
- Power fist (if on a S4+ model)
- Power Klaws
- Psibolt autocannon (have to fail save first)
- Hades Autocannon (have to fail save first)
- Wraithlord in close combat
- D-Cannons
- Those mini D-cannons that Wraithguard have
- Blaster

That's all that comes to mind right now.

Ah there we go, thanks. That's what I wanted. Heh.


Thanks everyone.

EDIT: now, what weapons have a high chance of fatally wounding a marine, even without being S8? Auto cannon was mentioned, and I know bolsters could if they hit the right spot (BOOM! Headshot!), but what else?

Neutralista wrote:
EDIT: now, what weapons have a high chance of fatally wounding a marine, even without being S8? Auto cannon was mentioned, and I know bolsters could if they hit the right spot (BOOM! Headshot!), but what else?

Probably anything that's described as particularly gruesome in the fluff? Like the description of what an Eldar Harlequin's Kiss does to you - if it hits the guy a huge length of monofilament thread shoots right into the target and liquifies his insides before he even has time to register what happened. Harlequins are only S3 (4 on the charge) but with a description like that I'd imagine any target wounded is a target not in need of medical attention after the battle.

It depends on how durable the Marine should be for the plot. Lufgt Huron took a melta gun to the face and lived, while other times a Marine will be fatally shot dead by just getting shot with a lucky lasgun shot or bolter round. There's no consistency to it; I wouldn't worry about it.

Reaper Launchers are also very effective against marines, it's STR 5 AP 3 with 2 shots at 4' range.

Yeah.

As for things that ID space marines from the guard codex, I count 18.

With only 2 exceptions, all of them are S8+. The two exceptions are the primaris psyker (force weapon) and al'rahem (awesomness).

I'd be careful about implementing your rule, though, as every unit I bring to the table contains at least one weapon that can ID marines (almost always two or three). You're a sing;e run-in with a basilisk from having to come up with a BUNCH of new names.

Brother SRM wrote:It depends on how durable the Marine should be for the plot. Lufgt Huron took a melta gun to the face and lived, while other times a Marine will be fatally shot dead by just getting shot with a lucky lasgun shot or bolter round. There's no consistency to it; I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm doing it for the lulz, mostly. XD

Ailaros wrote:Yeah.

As for things that ID space marines from the guard codex, I count 18.

With only 2 exceptions, all of them are S8+. The two exceptions are the primaris psyker (force weapon) and al'rahem (awesomness).

I'd be careful about implementing your rule, though, as every unit I bring to the table contains at least one weapon that can ID marines (almost always two or three). You're a sing;e run-in with a basilisk from having to come up with a BUNCH of new names.

Good thing I'm good at coming up with names!

Spetulhu wrote:

Neutralista wrote:
EDIT: now, what weapons have a high chance of fatally wounding a marine, even without being S8? Auto cannon was mentioned, and I know bolsters could if they hit the right spot (BOOM! Headshot!), but what else?

Probably anything that's described as particularly gruesome in the fluff? Like the description of what an Eldar Harlequin's Kiss does to you - if it hits the guy a huge length of monofilament thread shoots right into the target and liquifies his insides before he even has time to register what happened. Harlequins are only S3 (4 on the charge) but with a description like that I'd imagine any target wounded is a target not in need of medical attention after the battle.

Huh. I'll need to read all the codices

Well when you say insta kill, what kind of time span are we talking here? According to the FFG tabletop RPG, a sufficiently tall flights of stairs can kill a space marine in a matter of seconds.

 Necroshea wrote:
Well when you say insta kill, what kind of time span are we talking here? According to the FFG tabletop RPG, a sufficiently tall flights of stairs can kill a space marine in a matter of seconds.

Well, now I'm looking at commonly enough fatal wounds by weapons. I know bolters and las guns, oh and now thinking, plasma (it could if enough damage is done) can. So yeah.

After the game, take all the casualties and roll on a d6 table for them. You can come up with the results table details and just go from that. Maybe on a roll of a 6 they are down a game, but make a full recovery for future games? Just throwing out the idea.

On the other hand, the description on Wounds in the BRB says it represents how long you can fight before you die or get so hurt you can't carry on.

A marine is supposed to be insanely tough, and his armor carries an automated drug dispenser full of stuff that keeps him ticking far beyond where a normal man would die or black out. The more advanced PA suits supposedly even amputate compromised limbs by closing off the first joint that's not compromised. A marine who loses his last wound might be crippled, needing cybernetic limbs to get him up again. He might just be trapped in a frizzled PA that won't move. He might have lost the suit's machine spirit so he's unable to target or shoot. A terminator that fails a Dangerous Terrain check isn't necessarily dead, he might be trapped under 20 feet of mud and unable to dig himself out without help.

Garukadon wrote:After the game, take all the casualties and roll on a d6 table for them. You can come up with the results table details and just go from that. Maybe on a roll of a 6 they are down a game, but make a full recovery for future games? Just throwing out the idea.

Spetulhu wrote:On the other hand, the description on Wounds in the BRB says it represents how long you can fight before you die or get so hurt you can't carry on.

A marine is supposed to be insanely tough, and his armor carries an automated drug dispenser full of stuff that keeps him ticking far beyond where a normal man would die or black out. The more advanced PA suits supposedly even amputate compromised limbs by closing off the first joint that's not compromised. A marine who loses his last wound might be crippled, needing cybernetic limbs to get him up again. He might just be trapped in a frizzled PA that won't move. He might have lost the suit's machine spirit so he's unable to target or shoot. A terminator that fails a Dangerous Terrain check isn't necessarily dead, he might be trapped under 20 feet of mud and unable to dig himself out without help.

Outside of weapons that will obviously kill no matter what (I may roll to see where the weapon hit and determine if be will die or just lose a limb or two ). I think I'll roll the d6 to determine how exactly they're injured, incapped, or dead. That's an idea... Thanks guys.

As others have said, it depends on if it's an important character or not . Lord Commander of Such and Such Chapter? He will live through a nuclear blast. Standard SM grunt? One stray round from small-arms and they're collecting his geneseed.

Most anything below Str7 has a decent chance of just wounding them enough to have them thrown into a dreadnought.

So buy a dreadnought for every guy that dies to Str6 and lower then keep the names

The Eldar Shadow weaver and warp spider guns (the name escapes me at the moment) seem like they would kill a guy. They shoot basically nets of razor wire over guys that gradually tighten and constrict, eventually cutting the victim into tiny bloody chunks. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that you would be merely wounded by, unless you managed to escape somehow.

Depending on the roll, an Ork Shokk Attack Gun also has the potential to vaporize its enemy, or even suck them into the warp. So if your troopers get hit by it, pay attention to what he rolled and then decide as appropriate.

Many of the Tyranid weapons have some pretty nasty descriptions. Worth looking into as well.

I feel like you're gonna be renaming ALOT of marines. Everyone who goes down to a meltagun, a squad hit by a battle cannon, thats alot of casualties. Even if you're only renaming one of every 10 marines, that can be a lot in a single army each match. Lucky for you you're not playing Guard.

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
The Eldar Shadow weaver and warp spider guns (the name escapes me at the moment) seem like they would kill a guy. They shoot basically nets of razor wire over guys that gradually tighten and constrict, eventually cutting the victim into tiny bloody chunks. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that you would be merely wounded by, unless you managed to escape somehow.

Depending on the roll, an Ork Shokk Attack Gun also has the potential to vaporize its enemy, or even suck them into the warp. So if your troopers get hit by it, pay attention to what he rolled and then decide as appropriate.

Many of the Tyranid weapons have some pretty nasty descriptions. Worth looking into as well.

I feel like you're gonna be renaming ALOT of marines. Everyone who goes down to a meltagun, a squad hit by a battle cannon, thats alot of casualties. Even if you're only renaming one of every 10 marines, that can be a lot in a single army each match. Lucky for you you're not playing Guard.

Lol, yeah. But, if you think about it, with a d6 table (which blatantly obvious weapons will ignore), a melta could only take off an arm or a leg, or even both. Tyranids could certainly end up only taking off a limb or two before distracted by combat or orders from Synapse. Can't argue anything about lances or the Harlequin weapon. Lol

A weapon that can instant kill a Space Marine?

LOVE!

EDIT:

Sorry... forgot to add...

CAREBEAR STARE!

 djphranq wrote:
A weapon that can instant kill a Space Marine?

LOVE!

EDIT:

Sorry... forgot to add...

CAREBEAR STARE!

That made me lol. +1 to you, good sir!

Don't forget Huskblades, Hexrifles, and Shattershards from the DE armoury.

I thought it all depended on their status as a primary or secondary character who's death would cause a moral conflict/villain justification/plot device to move the story forward.

I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. A random private sprains an ankle and dies offscreen while Rambo blocks tank rounds with his stubble.

There's also the fact that everything is written "X-TREME 2-D MAXX!!1!" So depending on perspective you have guns that decimate even the thickest armor and the thickest armor able to deflect even the most devistating weapons. I can't remember what the book was, but there was a SoB book where a regular sister was able to take a pyschic lascannon shot to the face because she thought she'd be protected without a scratch. Being dumb isn't armor!

Just remember that 40k significantly scales down the lethality of ranged weapons to make infantry relevant. In reality even a lot of things that don't inflict instant death rules-wise would be an immediate one-shot kill. If you want a fluff explanation:

Small arms fire (bolters, lasguns, etc) or blast/frag AOE damage from missiles/explosive autocannon rounds/etc cause severe wounds. Power armor will protect against them pretty effectively and can stop quite a few shots as long as they don't hit a vulnerable spot, but anything that does get through armor without the armor taking most of the impact energy is going to cause pretty nasty wounds. A space marine with their redundant organs and pain control could probably take a wound or two and keep fighting for the rest of the battle or at least reach proper medical attention, but any lesser infantry will probably out of the fight at minimum.

Heavy bolters and similar weapons are usually lethal. Again, power armor provides good protection, but can take fewer hits before it fails, and any hit that gets through is probably going to take even a marine out of the fight, if not kill them. It doesn't matter how much pain tolerance you have, if you get a leg blown off you aren't going to be fighting very effectively. And of course anything less than a marine is going to be killed by any shot that gets through their armor, and that armor won't be very effective.

Autocannons and similar weapons are always lethal. Power armor provides limited protection since even shots that don't penetrate the plates will rip the joints/mounting points/etc apart through impact shock, and anything the armor doesn't stop will inflict such massive damage that even a marine will be reduced to a pile of bloody meat. At absolute best a marine wounded by a weapon like that might survive long enough to get help (though probably end up in a dreadnought) if he gets immediate medical attention, but will certainly be out of the fight and require a long recovery period before he can fight again.

Anything above that is instantly fatal and power armor provides no protection at all. Even terminator armor is worthless, as mass artillery fire, direct hits from railguns, etc, will impose such extreme forces on the marine himself that it will be fatal even if the armor somehow stays intact. The best a marine under attack by heavy weapons can hope for is that the shot misses by enough of a margin that the damage drops to survivable levels. Of course given the effectiveness of guided missiles, lascannons that hit instantly exactly where they're aimed, etc, the marine's only real hope is to avoid getting caught in the open.

And needless to say, all of the biggest weapons are instantly fatal with no hope of surviving. Concentrated artillery fire, air strikes, nuclear weapons, orbital bombardment, etc, will all kill every marine in a wide area. The only way to survive that kind of attack is to be miles away when it arrives.

Peregrine wrote:Small arms fire (bolters, lasguns, etc) or blast/frag AOE damage from missiles/explosive autocannon rounds/etc cause severe wounds. Power armor will protect against them pretty effectively and can stop quite a few shots as long as they don't hit a vulnerable spot, but anything that does get through armor without the armor taking most of the impact energy is going to cause pretty nasty wounds. A space marine with their redundant organs and pain control could probably take a wound or two and keep fighting for the rest of the battle or at least reach proper medical attention, but any lesser infantry will probably out of the fight at minimum.

Seems reasonable.

Peregrine wrote:Heavy bolters and similar weapons are usually lethal. Again, power armor provides good protection, but can take fewer hits before it fails, and any hit that gets through is probably going to take even a marine out of the fight, if not kill them. It doesn't matter how much pain tolerance you have, if you get a leg blown off you aren't going to be fighting very effectively. And of course anything less than a marine is going to be killed by any shot that gets through their armor, and that armor won't be very effective.

There are actually a lot of fluff examples in 40k of Marines, Orks, and Tyranids fighting on even with missing limbs, but most of those are "heroic" figures that have multiple wounds in the game anyway, so this seems more or less accurate.

Peregrine wrote:Autocannons and similar weapons are always lethal. Power armor provides limited protection since even shots that don't penetrate the plates will rip the joints/mounting points/etc apart through impact shock, and anything the armor doesn't stop will inflict such massive damage that even a marine will be reduced to a pile of bloody meat. At absolute best a marine wounded by a weapon like that might survive long enough to get help (though probably end up in a dreadnought) if he gets immediate medical attention, but will certainly be out of the fight and require a long recovery period before he can fight again.

This definitely goes against the fluff. Many novels have Marines taking hits from autocannons and continuing to fight. Though some of these appear to be based on the common Black Library error of referring to a heavy machine gun as an "autocannon," not all are. A Marine certainly can't take sustained fire from an autocannon, but could potentially survive a hit, especially a glancing one.

Peregrine wrote:Anything above that is instantly fatal and power armor provides no protection at all. Even terminator armor is worthless, as mass artillery fire, direct hits from railguns, etc, will impose such extreme forces on the marine himself that it will be fatal even if the armor somehow stays intact. The best a marine under attack by heavy weapons can hope for is that the shot misses by enough of a margin that the damage drops to survivable levels. Of course given the effectiveness of guided missiles, lascannons that hit instantly exactly where they're aimed, etc, the marine's only real hope is to avoid getting caught in the open.

This is right for Marines but wrong for Terminators. Terminator armor can withstand ridiculous amounts of force and still protect the guy inside-- in fact Terminators are substantially weaker in the tabletop game than they are in the fluff. In the fluff, Terminators can be stepped on by Titans and remain combat-effective. Similarly, there are fluff examples of Terminators being hit directly in the chest with krak missiles to no effect, and the old fluff about the origins of Terminator armor says it's tested by being dropped from orbit and that Terminators can walk around inside active plasma reactors unharmed.

 Kingsley wrote:
There are actually a lot of fluff examples in 40k of Marines, Orks, and Tyranids fighting on even with missing limbs, but most of those are "heroic" figures that have multiple wounds in the game anyway, so this seems more or less accurate.

Yeah, that's just silly. If you lose a leg you aren't going to be fighting effectively, simply because you aren't going to be able to walk or stand up anymore. You might be able to lean up against a wall and fight your last stand against the incoming horde, but outside of "stupid hero being heroic just for the sake of showing off" if you take that kind of damage you're out of the fight.

This definitely goes against the fluff. Many novels have Marines taking hits from autocannons and continuing to fight. Though some of these appear to be based on the common Black Library error of referring to a heavy machine gun as an "autocannon," not all are. A Marine certainly can't take sustained fire from an autocannon, but could potentially survive a hit, especially a glancing one.

When I say wound, I mean a shot that goes through the armor. A shot that the armor stops won't be fatal (though it can still cause crippling injuries, by hitting an arm and snapping it backwards with enough force to break the bones, for example), but an autocannon shot that isn't stopped by armor is going to blow limbs off, or inflict instantly fatal injuries with a chest hit.

This is right for Marines but wrong for Terminators. Terminator armor can withstand ridiculous amounts of force and still protect the guy inside-- in fact Terminators are substantially weaker in the tabletop game than they are in the fluff. In the fluff, Terminators can be stepped on by Titans and remain combat-effective. Similarly, there are fluff examples of Terminators being hit directly in the chest with krak missiles to no effect, and the old fluff about the origins of Terminator armor says it's tested by being dropped from orbit and that Terminators can walk around inside active plasma reactors unharmed.

It doesn't matter how well the armor survives, it's just a question of momentum. The energy of the impact has to go somewhere, and if a terminator takes a direct hit from a tank shell they're going to be flung backwards so hard that anyone inside the armor will be instantly killed. For a real-world comparison, just look at car design. We used to make cars out of heavy rigid frames for durability, which was good for preventing damage to the car from bumping someone in the parking lot, but in a high-speed crash all of the energy went into the passengers and you'd have a dead driver sitting in a mostly intact car. And then we realized that the best protection is to let the structure fail and absorb energy to protect the people inside. Armor is no different, at some point impact shock is fatal even if somehow the armor itself isn't damaged.

All of you make valid points, and I actually have to agree with Peregrine on this one. That's why, as I was thinking, I'll make a few d6 tables. One to determine if the marine is incapped or killed and one for how the marine is incapped, and one for how severe the incap is.

Example: Joe Sanders is removed as a casualty because he got killed by a las cannon shot. I roll a d6 and he is only incapacitated. I roll again and his arm is disabled. I roll the third d6 and his arm is totally destroyed, requiring bionics. See?