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Dear Readers,
Having read widely on both sides of the argument, I have a few questions and observations to make about FW. First and foremost, why would GW go to the trouble of making books and products for what is probably their most popular game if they weren't supposed to be used as such? Is there a game called ForgeWorld? Is it supposed to be an expansion like Apocalypse or Planetstrike? Or is it extra models and the rules that govern them, designed to played in regular games of 40k?

Why are people so stubborn and mule-headed in their insistence and vehemence that the BGB in its paper form is the be-all and end-all? Games Workshop stores are obliged to play the most up-to-date rules, if your LGW doesn't allow FW or says it's 'unofficial', they're breaking their own company's rules. That is straight from the horses mouth btw, I'm not just spouting crap. But, for the sake of argument, let's say I am. Disregard the previous few sentences and we'll get back to the question. "The BGB says codices only blah blah blah", which it doesn't although it does mention that codices are sourcebooks with background and rules for that armys models. People, we on this site all have one thing in common; we play a game that is being constantly updated. Short of coming into each and every home to update the paper rulebooks or having mass recalls every few months, GW publishes FAQs and Errata free of charge on their official website which supersede all previous material to which they relate. I pose this question: Does not the fact that the IA books, an OFFICIAL GW PRODUCT, state that FW products are intended and legally allowed for use in general/standard/whatever 40k games suggest that this is true?

Some people choose not to use FW products. Everyone one of us is free to decide such things for ourselves, praise be to the mysterious thing that is free will. Some people choose not to play against people who use FW products. Again, personal choice. Other people rant and rave about FW-inclusive players forcing their 'house-rules' upon an innocent and unsuspecting player or group. This is incompetence. Incompetent because it shows a lack of interested research in the game you play and spend so much time, effort and money on. Stupidity I could live with, an idiot is an idiot and can probably do nothing about it. I'm certainly not out to insult the idiots, they don't know any better. Incompetence though, I find impossible to abide. Do us all a favour and read what needs to be read, realise if you haven't already that the paper-bound BGB is only ONE source of rules and information for 40k and, please, be a big enough person to admit to yourself that maybe you just don't want to use or play against FW products and that it's fine to feel that way as long as you allow others their valid and game-legal right to do otherwise.

From an IG player who has no FW products nor really intends to purchase any.

Ok.

Should be in 40k General.

This discussion has been hashed out ad infinitum. It's not worth discussing as no ones mind is going to change.

More about getting the rant off my chest than actually changing minds. Be great if it did but if I'm just as stubborn as everyone else, chances are high it won't. Apologies for posting in the wrong section, I thought this would come heavily under rules interpretation.

rigeld2 wrote:
Should be in 40k General.

This discussion has been hashed out ad infinitum. It's not worth discussing as no ones mind is going to change.

This. This thread is going to become two sides. One saying "No, it says right there that's it's official!" and the other says, "It's not in the Rulebook, so it's not true!" until either a mod locks it down or they just stop posting. Just play your Forgeworld, OP, they are awesome models and unique rules. Let the nay sayers say nay, it's ultimately their choice in the matter since it's their toys.

+1 good sir. I hate hypocrites, and this just proves my point. Heh.

Anyway, yeah, a mod will lock this down eventually... I just say, if someone has an issue, pull out every book that will prove your point and show it is a GW product,

Pretty much what's been said.

-On one side are people who think Forgeworld stuff is a neat addition to the game.

-On the other side are people who will rail against them and tell them how they will outright refuse to play against any and all players who even have a single tank or FW-only unit in their list, because such players are obviously win-at-all-costs gamers who can't win with the normal Codex units, so they turn to the "outrageously overpowered" Forge World units.


I'm on the record as being one of the former group. I would absolutely love some day to have a Hornet, Wraithseer, or Warp Hunter in my Eldar collection. They are sexy models! Unfortunately, while I can occasionally splurge on something as expensive as FW, I outright refuse to buy the rulebook that will let me use either of those units, as it would cost as friggin' much (or more) than the unit!!

 Guardsman Bane wrote:
Is there a game called ForgeWorld?

Is there a game called Games Workshop? Is there a game called Codex? Why are we using Games Workshop miniatures and codexes in a game not called either?

Sorry, but that argument comes up all the time and always sounds dumb.

I agree with the OP, but I'm also sensitive to the arguement that its more books for your opponent to know and understand, and that FW players have a long and distinguished history of not knowing their own rules/cheating.

If they stayed up to date on their own rules, and didn't have a reputation for min/maxxing, then all of us who want to allow it, or want to use FW stuff for added fun, could.

BTW, my club treats FW stuff as LoW. You can only use two units from FW stuff... or run an all FW list (Armored Corps or HH stuff is fine). So far the FW stuff isn't any better than the "GW" stuff at the same cost. And that includes primarchs and such.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Guardsman Bane wrote:
Is there a game called ForgeWorld?

Is there a game called Games Workshop? Is there a game called Codex? Why are we using Games Workshop miniatures and codexes in a game not called either?

Sorry, but that argument comes up all the time and always sounds dumb.

I thought we were using Citadel Miniatures

 Lobukia wrote:
I agree with the OP, but I'm also sensitive to the arguement that its more books for your opponent to know and understand, and that 40k players have a long and distinguished history of not knowing their own rules/cheating.

Fixed that for you. Cheating and lack of rules knowledge is hardly exclusive to people who use FW rules, there are plenty of people using pure codex armies that get rules wrong out of ignorance or cheat. The solution isn't to ban specific rules, instead you just ask to see your opponent's rules before starting the game, whether it's an unfamiliar codex or a FW book.

Why are Forge World rules published as 'Forge World' if there's not meant to be any difference to those not published as 'Forge World'?

Seems counter-intuitive.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Why are Forge World rules published as 'Forge World' if there's not meant to be any difference to those not published as 'Forge World'?

Why are White Dwarf rules published in White Dwarf? Why are your Citadel miniatures and paints sold as Citadel miniatures and paints? The answer is very simple: brand recognition. The Forge World brand name immediately tells you that we're talking about GW's line of expensive high-quality resin models and expensive awesome books that focus on some of the less-typical units and conflicts. However, the brand name the product is sold under is irrelevant because GW has made it perfectly clear that they consider products sold under their Forge World brand to be official, and divided between additional official units for the Apocalypse expansion and additional official units for standard 40k. And in the end, that's all that matters, you can speculate all you want about why GW uses certain brand names, but they've told you what the rules for the game are.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
-On one side are people who think Forgeworld stuff is a neat addition to the game.

-On the other side are people who will rail against them and tell them how they will outright refuse to play against any and all players who even have a single tank or FW-only unit in their list, because such players are obviously win-at-all-costs gamers who can't win with the normal Codex units, so they turn to the "outrageously overpowered" Forge World units.

You missed out at least three groups I can think of:

- Those that use Forge World simply to power game, as they certainly do exist,

- People who don't like them due to genuine accessability and affordability concerns,

- The many people who really don't care either way on this topic, who are probably the largest group.

There are a lot of good motives and bad motives on both sides of this debate. At least for now, all game groups and players really need to discuss this kind of thing between themselves and come to a consensus. This seems more productive than the back and forth over a stupid "legality" question.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Unfortunately, while I can occasionally splurge on something as expensive as FW, I outright refuse to buy the rulebook that will let me use either of those units, as it would cost as friggin' much (or more) than the unit!!

I completely agree with you, buying the books for just the rules is ludicrously expensive. However, after buying and handling my first IA book I have come to the conclusion that they are less rule books and more "coffee table" books for geeks. They are the kind of book you can browse quite happily when having a break or as a guest at someone's house.They have a very decent production and design value, as well as good writing and painting standards. It is just unfortunate that they let the odd proof reading mistake slip through. When putting a price on them, you have to take these aspects into account, as they increase the value of the product. Compare them to a codex. You can buy a codex for the rules and (debatably I suppose) get your money's worth, ignoring the fluff and art almost completely. You may flick through or read them through but the quality is a fair bit less than the Forge World books. Forge World are premium, niche-within-a-niche products, and you have to pay for it.

It is sort of unfortunate that you can't just buy some kind of rules compilation book from them every year or so. I suppose if they did offer a budget product like this it would hurt demand for the larger books a fair bit though.

True, true.

But I find it a huge bummer that if i want to spend $54US on a Hornet, or $60 US on a Warp Hunter for my Eldar army, I also have to spend $72US(!!!) for the rules that let me field it!

Other than some of the outrageous unit from Forgeworld, I have no issue facing them across the table, as they nearly always enhance the fluff of the game. But the almost $130 dollars that it would take for me to get a single Hornet on the table is too much for me to ever be interested in Forgeworld, other than to peruse the site as eye-candy.

So my theory is that they are very cool models to see on the table, but I sigh at the fact that I will never be rich enough to have the disposable income to join that part of the hobby, other than the two Wave Serpent turrets that are on the gravtanks I bought from my buddy.

Hell I would love to get the Apocalypse book that would allow me to kitbash a Dark Eldar Razorwing so i can field a Nightwing Interceptor, but as far as I can tell even that book is nearly the cost of a Nightwing kit!

Might as well just lock this thread now. Speaking of failing to do research.. This has been brought up hundreds of times already.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
But I find it a huge bummer that if i want to spend $54US on a Hornet, or $60 US on a Warp Hunter for my Eldar army, I also have to spend $72US(!!!) for the rules that let me field it!

$50, you mean, and less if you can combine your orders with some other people and get free shipping. The Hornet, like most units, has been reprinted in one of the cheap rules-only books (IA:Apocalypse in this case). Compare that price to the price of a lower-quality codex and it's not a bad deal.

$50, you mean, and less if you can combine your orders with some other people and get free shipping. The Hornet, like most units, has been reprinted in one of the cheap rules-only books (IA:Apocalypse in this case). Compare that price to the price of a lower-quality codex and it's not a bad deal.

Unfortunately, I'm in a 40K dead-zone that's existed for a pretty long time (mostly I can game with my long time buddy, or another friend who doesn't do the hobby aspect, so I will loan an army of mine to) There is no one in my area that I could combine an order with, so it's all on my dime, lol.

As for the reprinted rules, thanks for the info, though! I find it hard to figure out which books have which rules, as no stores in my area carry them to leaf through. I thought the latest Eldar stuff was Volume 11-only. Does IA: Apocalypse have Wraithseers and Warp Hunters, too? I have heard that it has Nightwing rules, at least, which is a unit I have always liked.

 Trickstick wrote:
You missed out at least three groups I can think of:

- Those that use Forge World simply to power game, as they certainly do exist,

Necrons, Grey Knights, counts-as Space Wolves.

 Trickstick wrote:
- People who don't like them due to genuine accessability and affordability concerns,

Imperial Guard.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As for the reprinted rules, thanks for the info, though! I find it hard to figure out which books have which rules, as no stores in my area carry them to leaf through. I thought the latest Eldar stuff was Volume 11-only. Does IA: Apocalypse have Wraithseers and Warp Hunters, too? I have heard that it has Nightwing rules, at least, which is a unit I have always liked.

If you look at the book on FW's website they have the table of contents shown for most, if not all, books they sell. In the case of the units you're asking about, the Warp Hunter and Wraithseer are in IA:Apocalypse, while the Nightwing is in IA:Aeronautica. Most units from the expensive campaign books end up being reprinted in the next of the cheaper "rules only" books.

I think that playing FW is fine especially if the person has the actual model, and as it is official by GW aswell.

and you could just download the rules from FW (well from the internet not necesarily FW) and therefore get the rules for free or atleast for a small print out fee...

RayND wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
You missed out at least three groups I can think of:

- Those that use Forge World simply to power game, as they certainly do exist,

Necrons, Grey Knights, counts-as Space Wolves.

 Trickstick wrote:
- People who don't like them due to genuine accessability and affordability concerns,

Imperial Guard.

Exactly. There are many types of people and they are on all sides of this argument.

 cvtuttle wrote:
Might as well just lock this thread now. Speaking of failing to do research.. This has been brought up hundreds of times already.

Just because something has been discussed before doesn't mean that other people wouldn't also like to discuss it. Maybe people didn't get to contribute previously, or were not available. Threads like this are like conversations, they run their course until the conversation ends or becomes pointless.

Might as well just lock this thread now. Speaking of failing to do research.. This has been brought up hundreds of times already.

Refer to my initial response.

The only thing the op does in this I think is anger people, maybe I would suggest at re reading some of the recent threads and looking at the discussions.
I guess reading it made me a bit disappointed.

To be honest I have found other threads on this to change my mind to be more open to FW as long as people understand and are willing to compromise for my enjoyment at times I'm happy to compromise for them where it is both possible for us both.

Also I'm perfectly happy with the models, just not the rules at this time outside of a expantion or addon.

Realy I think so much anger is pushed towards players, it's GW that handles the game in such a way and the FW discussion I think is more a symptom than something just on its own.