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2012/12/09 15:36:52
Subject: Do the primarchs represent an aspect of the Emporer?
ie
Angron would be Rage
Dorn would be Doubt
Mortarian Endurance
Perteraburo Arrogance
Vulkan Compassion
Magnus Curiosity
Sanguinus Charm
What would the rest be if they each represent a part of the Emporer?
2012/12/09 15:41:08
Subject: Re:Do the primarchs represent an aspect of the Emporer?
You are all facets of the Emperor,’ Kor Phaeron amended. ‘You are aspects pulled from a genetic primer. The Lion is your father’s rationality – his analytical skill – unburdened by conscience. Magnus is his psychic potential and eager mind, unrestrained by patience. Russ is his ferocity, untempered by reason. Even Horus…’
‘Go on,’ Lorgar said, looking up now. ‘What of Horus?’
‘The Emperor’s ambition, unshaped by humility. Think of all the worlds where our Legion waged war alongside the Luna Wolves. You’ve seen it as well as I have. Horus hides his arrogance, but it is there – a layer beneath his skin, a shroud around his soul. Pride beats through his body like blood.’
‘And Guilliman?’ Lorgar let his hands rest on his knees again. A smile inched across his features.
‘Guilliman.’ Kor Phaeron’s narrow lips moulded into a grimace, opposing his primarch’s smirk. ‘Guilliman is your father’s echo, heart and soul. If all else went wrong, he would be heir to the empire. Horus is the brightest star and you carry your father’s face, but Guilliman’s heart and soul are cast in the Emperor’s image.’
Lorgar nodded, still smiling to see his advisor’s bitterness. ‘My Macraggian brother is as easy to read as an open book,’ he said. ‘But what of me, Kor Phaeron? Surely I bear more than my father’s features. What aspect of the Imperial avatar have I inherited?’
‘Sire?’ interrupted Erebus. ‘If I may?’
Lorgar granted permission with a tilt of his head. Ever the statesman, Erebus needed no time to compose himself, or his answer.
‘You embody the Emperor’s hope. You are his belief in a greater way of life, and his desire to raise humanity to achieve its greatest potential. You devote yourself to these ends, forever selfless, utterly faithful, striving for the betterment of all.’
So - Horus -ambition
- Russ - ferocity
- Guiliman - Emps echo
- Fulgrim - his libido
do continue...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/09 15:50:12
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/12/09 15:54:33
Subject: Do the primarchs represent an aspect of the Emporer?
I think rather than each representing a rigid aspect of the Emperor's personality, it's better to look at it as each Primarch being created to do a specific job (which is how its been addressed in other HH books)
e.g.
Russ is the executioner, there to police other legions if they get too big for their boots.
Dorn and his legion specialise in defensive siegecraft
Peturabo & the Iron Warriors offensive siegecraft
Deathguard, relentlessness and hostile environment warfare
On the idea of Mortarion as endurance, Deliverance Lost actually suggest Perturabo as having an increased pain threshold, rather than Mortarion specifically, although this seems to be contradicted by the FWHH book:
Here's a small bit of information on Perturabo gleamed from Deliverance Lost (no real spoiler, don't worry), at the bottom of page 292:
It appears that Perturabo has a greater pain/damage threshold than ordinary Primarchs (so, a lot); it appears that in his genetics Perturabo can resist greater levels of harm and is more aware/in control of his body movements/limbs.
He also appears to either be more aware of pain, or less aware of pain, I'm not entirely sure which...
Either way he possesses "unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others."
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2012/12/10 16:35:09
Subject: Do the primarchs represent an aspect of the Emporer?
This is a kitchy little theory, and has been done dozens of different ways, from comparing them to constellations, to tarot cards, to aspects of personality, to whatever else.
None of the Primarchs' personalities are so cut and dry as to be pidgeonholed into a single emotion (plus miniscule distinctions like wrath vs. rage).
At the end of the day, they are all humans, with the full gamut of flaws we are subject to.
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2012/12/10 17:20:44
Subject: Do the primarchs represent an aspect of the Emporer?
somecallmeJack wrote: I think rather than each representing a rigid aspect of the Emperor's personality, it's better to look at it as each Primarch being created to do a specific job (which is how its been addressed in other HH books)
e.g.
Russ is the executioner, there to police other legions if they get too big for their boots.
Dorn and his legion specialise in defensive siegecraft
Peturabo & the Iron Warriors offensive siegecraft
Deathguard, relentlessness and hostile environment warfare
etc etc
Which doesn't really work, as most Primarch picked up their "style" of fighting at the planet they got warped to as infants. Not something the Emperor planned.
And the Russ-as-executioner was voiced by a TS-adviser specifically out to disparage the Emperor's motives and actions. So besides being "in-character" and all, motives are questionable at best (not to mention that character's (lack of) insights into the Emperor's motives during the Primarch-project).
None of the Primarchs' personalities are so cut and dry as to be pidgeonholed into a single emotion (plus miniscule distinctions like wrath vs. rage).
QFT. It seems grossly adolescent to try to sum up charectors' personalities with just one word, or aspect. People are more complex than that.
Having said that, showing the primarch's personalities as espects' of the emperor can be interesting, if it's done in a mature way.
QFT - but this is 40k - primarchs aren't fleshed out enough, wouldn't you agree? They are pretty shallow IMHO + everyone has one feat which domitnates through the storyline... (which only shows emotional depth of 40k :-)...
Now, I like that in the 40k simply because it's simple grimdark WAR ...
If I want emotionaly deep characters I'll read Tolstoj...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/12/10 18:49:20
Subject: Do the primarchs represent an aspect of the Emporer?
The Primarchs can be but are not always rendered with emotional depth. Dembski-Bowden's Lorgar is a great example of depth via direct characterization. Abnett's approach to Russ, depth via indirect characterization (we learn about Russ by learning about his Legion), is also very effective.
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