Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1. Why isn't Baroque architecture being so common despite several parts of the USA has been ruled over by European empires in the Renaissance and Enlightened Era? Baroque buildings only found common in the southwest where it was once belonged to Spain and Mexico.
2. Typical architecture for 'State Capitol buildings' had been built as Neoclassic. modelled after the Congress. (Louisana's capiton building, located in Baton Rouge, used (Imperial) Gothic instead) Does Neochassic architecture has anything to do with 'American Nationalism' psyche? if it does. do they associate 'Baroque' with European Imperialism so the federal government buildings or any state-elvel bureau offices weren't built that way? of course older Spanish Baroque buildings (especially churches) are preserved by american inheritors. but it appears that no new baroque buildings has been built in the U.S. after the Mexican war.
3. Is there any Baroque Vegas casino out there?
4. Is Alamo also (ruined) Baroque building?

Well according to the reading I just did Baroque architecture never really caught on in England, which was our primary influence across most of the country as time went on. What Baroque architecture did catch on in England had Classicalist tones to it.

Extrapolating from that I'd say it makes sense that outside of areas that saw extensive Spanish colonization when under Spanish control that the style didn't make it over.

Not sure what I'd call the Alamo architecturally speaking. It's a fortress and seems to have put function over form.

^ Alamo was originally Spanish monastery+mission (or maybe.. castle!), being built as fortress is due to the proximity to the natives who might be hostile to foreigners at that time. I don't know when was it been built. in 17th century or 18th century and did it associated with Franciscan Fraiar's trek of the late 18thc. (few decades before the Revolutionary war broke out in the New England), in a movie starring Dennis Quaid, Alamo appeared to have Baroque architecture but not so elaborate.

Oklahoma wasn't settled until 1889, so most our stuff is fake-old.

No it was definitely a mission, wee bit small for a castle. 18th Century build date, the chapel (which is the bit you see if you goggle the Alamo) was baroque-ish... in that it was very decorated but like most surviving architecture of the day, supplies were limited and master builders even more scarce then the supplies and tools.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Well according to the reading I just did Baroque architecture never really caught on in England, which was our primary influence across most of the country as time went on. What Baroque architecture did catch on in England had Classicalist tones to it.

This. There's bugger all Baroque architecture in the UK and the USA is basically an off-shoot of Britain.

Lone Cat wrote:1. Why isn't Baroque architecture being so common despite several parts of the USA has been ruled over by European empires in the Renaissance and Enlightened Era? Baroque buildings only found common in the southwest where it was once belonged to Spain and Mexico.
2. Typical architecture for 'State Capitol buildings' had been built as Neoclassic. modelled after the Congress. (Louisana's capiton building, located in Baton Rouge, used (Imperial) Gothic instead) Does Neochassic architecture has anything to do with 'American Nationalism' psyche? if it does. do they associate 'Baroque' with European Imperialism so the federal government buildings or any state-elvel bureau offices weren't built that way? of course older Spanish Baroque buildings (especially churches) are preserved by american inheritors. but it appears that no new baroque buildings has been built in the U.S. after the Mexican war.
3. Is there any Baroque Vegas casino out there?
4. Is Alamo also (ruined) Baroque building?

There are a few points that I should make here:

1. The Renaissance was 15th century through to the 17th century. The USA didn't exist then, and any European settlements were barely more than log cabins and frontier outposts. They had many more important things to worry about than ornate architecture, such as simply not dying. Further, most American colonies at the time were English, and in England the Baroque style was never quite as populat as it was elsewhere, such as in Italy or France.

2. The Age of Enlightenment ran from 1687 to 1789, and was strictly a European thing. In fact, the Puritans travelled to the New World to escape from the Age of Reason. Being Bible literalists, their beliefs were almost the polar opposite of the Age of Enlightenment.

3. The Venetian Hotel & Casino is probably the closest thing to a truly Baroque-styled casino in Las Vegas.

4. I don't think "Baroque" means what you think it means. The Alamo is an Adobe building, which is the style common to the American Southwest. Is Adobe what you are thinking of?

 Testify wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Well according to the reading I just did Baroque architecture never really caught on in England, which was our primary influence across most of the country as time went on. What Baroque architecture did catch on in England had Classicalist tones to it.

This. There's bugger all Baroque architecture in the UK and the USA is basically an off-shoot of Britain.

Except y'know the large swaths of our country that were once Spanish or French...

I'd say most U.S. colonies were wood not stone and didn't last, and by the time we were building permanent structures tastes had changed.

The Neo-Classical architecture is a deliberate homage to Greece, the home of democracy.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Lone Cat wrote:1. Why isn't Baroque architecture being so common despite several parts of the USA has been ruled over by European empires in the Renaissance and Enlightened Era? Baroque buildings only found common in the southwest where it was once belonged to Spain and Mexico.
2. Typical architecture for 'State Capitol buildings' had been built as Neoclassic. modelled after the Congress. (Louisana's capiton building, located in Baton Rouge, used (Imperial) Gothic instead) Does Neochassic architecture has anything to do with 'American Nationalism' psyche? if it does. do they associate 'Baroque' with European Imperialism so the federal government buildings or any state-elvel bureau offices weren't built that way? of course older Spanish Baroque buildings (especially churches) are preserved by american inheritors. but it appears that no new baroque buildings has been built in the U.S. after the Mexican war.
3. Is there any Baroque Vegas casino out there?
4. Is Alamo also (ruined) Baroque building?

There are a few points that I should make here:

1. The Renaissance was 15th century through to the 17th century. The USA didn't exist then, and any European settlements were barely more than log cabins and frontier outposts. They had many more important things to worry about than ornate architecture, such as simply not dying. Further, most American colonies at the time were English, and in England the Baroque style was never quite as populat as it was elsewhere, such as in Italy or France.

1. Only the Eastern Seaboard and Ohio valley was originally colonized by 'British' (not just Englishmen), and has better access to timbers. the colony exists just BEFORE the first caribbean pirates shown up.

2. The Age of Enlightenment ran from 1687 to 1789, and was strictly a European thing. In fact, the Puritans travelled to the New World to escape from the Age of Reason. Being Bible literalists, their beliefs were almost the polar opposite of the Age of Enlightenment.

2.1 Didn't the Puritan 'Pilgrims' left Britain BEFORE Thirty-Years war? , They escape the Anglicanism (and instability of British politics of that time)
2.2 Age of Enlightenment also characterized by the following
- Baroque architecture was common.
- an overtly elegant outfit in Europe, Tricorne hat was common (and eventually replaced Morrion helmets worn by common troops)
- Firearms became standard infantry weapon, also soldiers stop wearing any kind of armor.
- Bigger wooden sailships,
- Caribbean piracy
(and some more!)

3. The Venetian Hotel & Casino is probably the closest thing to a truly Baroque-styled casino in Las Vegas.

4. I don't think "Baroque" means what you think it means. The Alamo is an Adobe building, which is the style common to the American Southwest. Is Adobe what you are thinking of?

Alamo and the Lone Star flag

Alamo is clearly masonry building, what will you say about its Fac,ade? If it is architecturally NOT baroque then what it is?

5. And don't forget French - ruled Louisiana colony. By the time Napoleon sold the colony to the US. The city of Nouveau Orleans is already heavily urbanized, and also heavily 'Europeanized' too!
had they introduce Baroque architecture elsewhere in that colony by the 1777?

 Lone Cat wrote:
1. Why isn't Baroque architecture being so common despite several parts of the USA has been ruled over by European empires in the Renaissance and Enlightened Era? Baroque buildings only found common in the southwest where it was once belonged to Spain and Mexico.
2. Typical architecture for 'State Capitol buildings' had been built as Neoclassic. modelled after the Congress. (Louisana's capiton building, located in Baton Rouge, used (Imperial) Gothic instead) Does Neochassic architecture has anything to do with 'American Nationalism' psyche? if it does. do they associate 'Baroque' with European Imperialism so the federal government buildings or any state-elvel bureau offices weren't built that way? of course older Spanish Baroque buildings (especially churches) are preserved by american inheritors. but it appears that no new baroque buildings has been built in the U.S. after the Mexican war.
3. Is there any Baroque Vegas casino out there?
4. Is Alamo also (ruined) Baroque building?

Spanish and French architecture in the US is NOT baroque, thanks.
The Alamo and the other four San Antonio missions, while cool, definitely aren't baroque. They are "mission" style, which is the form of a church, and walls with buildings on against the walls. Besides the church, everythinhg is generally square, as befitting what are essantially outpost fortresses on the frontier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Oklahoma wasn't settled until 1889, so most our stuff is fake-old.

Yes, but everything is very horizontal and vertical.

This is not baroque. Up close they are definitely not that ornate. Other than these pictures everything is square.
http://www.nps.gov/saan/index.htm

This is baroque

http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Chateau_de_Versailles.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Well according to the reading I just did Baroque architecture never really caught on in England, which was our primary influence across most of the country as time went on. What Baroque architecture did catch on in England had Classicalist tones to it.

This. There's bugger all Baroque architecture in the UK and the USA is basically an off-shoot of Britain.

Except y'know the large swaths of our country that were once Spanish or French...

I'd say most U.S. colonies were wood not stone and didn't last, and by the time we were building permanent structures tastes had changed.

The Neo-Classical architecture is a deliberate homage to Greece, the home of democracy.

Spanish style buildings in the US generally weren't baroque though. The US areas were the frontier. Now the big cathedrals and government buildings in Mexico were ornate and could more fit that style. However the areas now contained in Texas, California, New Mexico, and Arizona, were tenuous sparsely controlled regions. Baroque architecture requires a lot of effort. You don't put effort into buildings designed to protect your very small population from Comanche raiders.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Well according to the reading I just did Baroque architecture never really caught on in England, which was our primary influence across most of the country as time went on. What Baroque architecture did catch on in England had Classicalist tones to it.

Extrapolating from that I'd say it makes sense that outside of areas that saw extensive Spanish colonization when under Spanish control that the style didn't make it over.

Not sure what I'd call the Alamo architecturally speaking. It's a fortress and seems to have put function over form.

Good point about England.

I may be wrong but the reason that Baroque didn't catch on in England is because of its association with the Catholic church (it was seen as part of the counter-reformation)

and obviously, Papism would not have been popular in England.

We have lots of swastikas on our Capitol building though, does that count for anything?

All I know is that most artists, being poor and starving, are generally baroque.

d-usa wrote:We have lots of swastikas on our Capitol building though, does that count for anything?

Uh, it likely means your capitol building was constructed prior to the Nazi's appropriation of the swastika?

 azazel the cat wrote:

d-usa wrote:We have lots of swastikas on our Capitol building though, does that count for anything?

Uh, it likely means your capitol building was constructed prior to the Nazi's appropriation of the swastika?

1919, with the swastika being a homage to the native american history of the state.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Lone Cat wrote:
2. The Age of Enlightenment ran from 1687 to 1789, and was strictly a European thing. In fact, the Puritans travelled to the New World to escape from the Age of Reason. Being Bible literalists, their beliefs were almost the polar opposite of the Age of Enlightenment.

2.1 Didn't the Puritan 'Pilgrims' left Britain BEFORE Thirty-Years war? , They escape the Anglicanism (and instability of British politics of that time)
2.2 Age of Enlightenment also characterized by the following
- Baroque architecture was common.
- an overtly elegant outfit in Europe, Tricorne hat was common (and eventually replaced Morrion helmets worn by common troops)
- Firearms became standard infantry weapon, also soldiers stop wearing any kind of armor.

Exactly. The Puritans fled Europe before/during/because of the Age of Enlightenment, therefore they would not have been influenced by it. Ergo, no Baroque architecture in the New World.

...also, soldiers continued to wear cuirass or chestplate armour in the late 17th century. It really wasn't until the French Revolution where it all but completely disappeared from the battlefield.

Baroque Architecture was basically a chest beating exercise by the Catholic church to show off their wealth. There wasn't much wealth in North America until the 20th century. Hence why Modernist Architecture is hugely prominent in the USA.

When you think about cities (the centers of a countries wealth) you can roughly determine the periods in which they prospered most by looking at the architecture of their grandest buildings. For example in Rome you see the clasical archtecture of ancient Rome, in Florence and Venice the renaissance architecture of the enlightenment period, in London the gothic revival of the nineteenth century and in the majority of US cities: dominating skylines of modernist skyscrapers.

Therefore the fact you don't see much of the incredibly elaborate architectural style of seventeenth century Baroque in North America shouldn't be surprising.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
1. Why isn't Baroque architecture being so common despite several parts of the USA has been ruled over by European empires in the Renaissance and Enlightened Era? Baroque buildings only found common in the southwest where it was once belonged to Spain and Mexico.
2. Typical architecture for 'State Capitol buildings' had been built as Neoclassic. modelled after the Congress. (Louisana's capiton building, located in Baton Rouge, used (Imperial) Gothic instead) Does Neochassic architecture has anything to do with 'American Nationalism' psyche? if it does. do they associate 'Baroque' with European Imperialism so the federal government buildings or any state-elvel bureau offices weren't built that way? of course older Spanish Baroque buildings (especially churches) are preserved by american inheritors. but it appears that no new baroque buildings has been built in the U.S. after the Mexican war.
3. Is there any Baroque Vegas casino out there?
4. Is Alamo also (ruined) Baroque building?

Spanish and French architecture in the US is NOT baroque, thanks.
The Alamo and the other four San Antonio missions, while cool, definitely aren't baroque. They are "mission" style, which is the form of a church, and walls with buildings on against the walls. Besides the church, everythinhg is generally square, as befitting what are essantially outpost fortresses on the frontier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Oklahoma wasn't settled until 1889, so most our stuff is fake-old.

Yes, but everything is very horizontal and vertical.

This is not baroque. Up close they are definitely not that ornate. Other than these pictures everything is square.
http://www.nps.gov/saan/index.htm

This is baroque

http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Chateau_de_Versailles.html

So real baroque buildings NEEDS a dedicated effort of deco sculptures, any buildings (especially in what is now the USA) that LOOKS ALIKE Old World original baroque building but ignores several sculpture details aren't considered ones. right?

And even when the USA became independent. (and many eastcoast cities are no longer frontier ones, even in the times that 'frontierlands' shifted to Ohio and Tennesse valleys). Did federal / state govts actually identified Baroque architecture with 'Old World ties'? (European Imperialism, European Monarchy, Roman Catholic church) while american 'nationalism' psyche believed that Neoclassic following the purest identity of Greco Roman architecture should be adopted for federal and state administration buildings instead (while someone said that Neoclassic is actually homage to (Athenian) Greeks, (Pioneer of Democracy,) round dome seems to be Roman creations (Romans also the early civilizations to adopt 'Republic' government style, Republic of Rome was quite different to modern ones however).

Also In Europe. What was the new architect that 'replacing' the Baroque by 1810. if anyone said that by then the Baroque 'is on the way out'?

Having been to the Louisiana State Capitol, I would certainly not call it "Imperial" Gothic (whatever that may be, I assume you meant Neo-Gothic) in any way, shape, or form. It is most definitely a fine example of Art Deco.