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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Had a situation tonight where my scarab swarm attempted to charge a LR; my opponent referenced the rule that states that you can't charge a unit that you can't at least glance, to which I replied my entropic strike fulfills that requirement. We couldn't agree, so we rolled off and I lost.

Just wondering for the future what the consensus is on this. To me it's pretty clear, but I'm willing to accept it if I'm missing something.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

It does appear to be a nerf to the scarabs.

At the time they could charge, the cannot hurt the vehicle.

Can't remember which way the FAQ gos though.

   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Entropic Strike does indeed allow them to hurt vehicles they normally wouldn't, thus they can charge anything you want.

Because it is resolved before any hits roll for damage, it is definitly possable for Str3 scarabs to hurt a Landraider on the first turn they charge it.

Thus they are allowed to charge anything they want to.



The order of operations for Scarabs is as follows.

1) Roll to Hit as normal for a vehicle.

2) Before rolling to penetrate the vehicle, roll a dice per hit the Scarabs managed. For each 4+ that is rolled, you reduce the vehicles armor value as per the Entropic Strike rule.

3) Now you roll to damage the vehicle, assuming you manage to reduce it enough to make it a possability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/16 04:53:55


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The entropic strike does not fulfill that requirement as entropic strike can never cause a glance, as it only reduced the AV of the vehicle.

However: The rule states "a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt - it must have some possibility, no matter how small, of being able to inflict at least a glancing hit." P. 76 BRB

Can the scarabs Glance the vehicle?

Well lets check it out.

1 scarab base has 4 base attacks and 1 bonus attack for charging. IIRC. (If a single base does not have 5 attacks on the charge then a single base can not charge, but multiple bases could).

So 5 attacks. If they all hit, and all entropic strikes are a 4+ that brings the AV down to 9. The scarabs have a Str of 3, so on a 6 they can glance the LR.

So they can charge any AV 14 vehicle as long as nothing changes (I.E. if something reduces their attacks by 1 then a single scarab base would not be able to charge a AV 14 vehicle).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/16 04:53:28


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Sounds like the LR player reallllly wants to win. Hope the game was at least fun, if not a learning experience.
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






I'm confused. Wouldn't that mean scarabs couldn't charge at all since they have S3 and all vehicles are A10? It sounds like this guy was really trying to screw you over.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

So long as there are enough scarabs for Entropic Strike to have a chance of lowering the armour enough for them to hurt it, they're fine.

If there are not enough scarabs for that to happen, then yes, they would be unable to charge the LR.

 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

Looks like I had misremembered the rule ...

My bad, thought it was a simple str/glance/pen thing.

Sums it up nicely than.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Thanks all; it made sense to me that it worked that way; I had 5 Scarab bases that I wanted to pop the LR with and try to tie up the Terminators inside. I'll know for next time.
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




London, UK

Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.

- 40 Rulebook FAQ 1.0a
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 XT-1984 wrote:
Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.

- 40 Rulebook FAQ 1.0a
Except there is a more specific rule that states:

"a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt - it must have some possibility, no matter how small, of being able to inflict at least a glancing hit." P. 76 BRB

So if you have no way of inflicting at least a glancing hit on a vehicle, you can not charge said vehicle.

For example a Space Marine assault terminator Squad all with LC's can never charge a vehicle with AV 12+ in the rear (Unless they had access to something that gave them +2 Strength).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in im
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

 XT-1984 wrote:
Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.

- 40 Rulebook FAQ 1.0a

That's a unit in general, there's then a further rule that you can't charge a vehicle you can't hurt.

 insaniak wrote:
So long as there are enough scarabs for Entropic Strike to have a chance of lowering the armour enough for them to hurt it, they're fine.

If there are not enough scarabs for that to happen, then yes, they would be unable to charge the LR.

Hmmm... Makes sense but there's no time restraint placed in the rule. A single scarab swarm could reduce the armour sufficiently given enough time, if you get my meaning.
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





A swarm of Scarabs can charge whatever they want, then eat it.

Experience is something you get just after you need it
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k
The Shadewatch - 3k
Cadmus Outriders - 4k
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k  
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




DR has calculated it in a previous post. 1 scarab base on the charge has the potential to glance a Land Raider. So there isn't any vehicle scarabs cannot charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/16 14:30:15


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

Cannot charge what they cannot hurt... Right? So lowering the armor of a vehicle is hurting it. So charge away.

In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Lungpickle wrote:
Cannot charge what they cannot hurt... Right? So lowering the armor of a vehicle is hurting it. So charge away.

The underlined is false.

The rule defines hurting a vehicle as scoring at least a glancing hit.

This has nothing to do with lowering the AV of a Vehicle.

The scarabs can charge because there is a possibility of them inflicting a glancing hit, because they have a chance to lower the AV of a LR to 9 and then roll a 6 to score a glancing hit.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

 DeathReaper wrote:
Lungpickle wrote:
Cannot charge what they cannot hurt... Right? So lowering the armor of a vehicle is hurting it. So charge away.

The underlined is false.

The rule defines hurting a vehicle as scoring at least a glancing hit.

This has nothing to do with lowering the AV of a Vehicle.

The scarabs can charge because there is a possibility of them inflicting a glancing hit, because they have a chance to lower the AV of a LR to 9 and then roll a 6 to score a glancing hit.


Is lowering a vehicles armor more than a glancing hit?
What if the unit cannot glance?
Is it impossible for dreadnought to charge Ork Trukks? After all, the S10 dreadnought cannot glance.

The only way I see this coming up is a combined charged, can a lone scarab go into the raider? He'd only have 4 attacks and couldn't reduce armor enough to glance.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I believe its at least glance.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Is lowering a vehicles armor more than a glancing hit?

Lowering a vehicles armor has nothing to do with glancing/Penetrating hits.
HawaiiMatt wrote:
What if the unit cannot glance?
Is it impossible for dreadnought to charge Ork Trukks? After all, the S10 dreadnought cannot glance.

The only way I see this coming up is a combined charged, can a lone scarab go into the raider? He'd only have 4 attacks and couldn't reduce armor enough to glance.

-Matt

You must have missed the "At least" part of the rule:

"a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt - it must have some possibility, no matter how small, of being able to inflict at least a glancing hit." P. 76 BRB

If they can at least inflicting hit, then they can charge. This means if they can inflict a glance or a pen they can charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/16 22:31:40


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





But Scrabs usually come in groups of ten bases, and last time I chucked them at a land raider, it escaped on AV2. (TO was being a bit of a dick saying that the scarabs lowered armnour and that was their attack)

Experience is something you get just after you need it
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k
The Shadewatch - 3k
Cadmus Outriders - 4k
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k  
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 IHateNids wrote:
But Scrabs usually come in groups of ten bases, and last time I chucked them at a land raider, it escaped on AV2. (TO was being a bit of a dick saying that the scarabs lowered armnour and that was their attack)
It varies, and they usually never cross the field fully intact.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Thats why I love Spyders now...

Experience is something you get just after you need it
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k
The Shadewatch - 3k
Cadmus Outriders - 4k
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k  
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Scarabs make their normal attacks after they lower the vehicle's AV. So the AV2 LR shouldn't have a chance of surving...
   
Made in gb
Proud Triarch Praetorian





i know that, but it was a caser of bad TO ruling. I beleive that one of my mate did tell him he was a t fault, but my game had already ended at that point.

Experience is something you get just after you need it
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k
The Shadewatch - 3k
Cadmus Outriders - 4k
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

Or lowering the AV to zero which wrecks it. HMM quandry here since entropic strike cant HURT it right deathreaper.

You still can charge it.

I myself have charges a Land raider with enough scarabs t lower the AV to minus 2, 16 entropic strike hit but I failed to hurt it ? Sometimes the logic here baffles me.

Though you are cvorrect in the fact hurting is described as a glancing hit. BOGGLE pg 76

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 19:21:12


In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Lungpickle wrote:
Though you are cvorrect in the fact hurting is described as a glancing hit. BOGGLE pg 76

Hurting it is described as being able to inflict at least a glancing hit.

Lowering the armour doesn't count... but lowering the armour enough to be able to inflict at least a glancing hit does.

 
   
 
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