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Although I don't own it, I am very interessted in Dota and other MOBAs like Awesomenauts and Legue of Legends. I got round to thinking if they would translate effectivly into a miniatures game.

The focus would be on speedy and mathematical game play without any random modifiers. This would keep the game competetive but sacrifice realism, much like Dota itself. But the real question is would the speed and stratagy of Dota work as a wargame?

Do Discuss.

I feel Super Dungeon Explore is pretty well done as a 'mobs vs heroes' system with quick easy gameplay.

I feel like you would simply need a 'hero + hero led mobs' vs 'hero + hero led mobs' with simple combat rules. As for gameplay, I think square or hex boards would be required for movement as I think it is faster and simpler.

I would love to see a a DOTA boardgame or wargame system. Some of the SDE hero vs hero custom rules may be the closest thing out there to a good gameplay system.

Guardians of Middle-Earth?

The main problem I see with it is this: why would you spend all that money collecting and painting miniatures for a tabletop version of LoL when you could just download LoL and play it for free?

 Sidstyler wrote:
The main problem I see with it is this: why would you spend all that money collecting and painting miniatures for a tabletop version of LoL when you could just download LoL and play it for free?

So should I quit 40K because there are RTS games? Should I stop paintballing because there are FPS games? Should I never drive a go-kart again because there are racing games?

I mean obviously you only do those activities because there's no video game for them. It's not like pen and paper RPGs aren't popular at all.

What game gives you the exact same experience that tabletop 40k does but on a computer screen? Even the Dawn of War series is far, far from it, introducing concepts that aren't in the tabletop version like base-building and resource management, they drastically changed things to make it work as a computer game. The rest of your comparisons are even more asinine...Call of Duty is not literally the computer game equivalent of paintball, and paintball is not the real-life version of Call of Duty, by far. "If there's a video game version then it's not worth playing anything else" is entirely something that you said, and wasn't my original point at all.

Also, funny you should mention pen-and-paper RPGs, because IIRC that's one of the reasons 4th edition D&D was considered a failure, why many D&D fans either stuck with older editions or abandoned the game for Pathfinder instead: they tried to turn D&D into a "tabletop MMO" and players didn't like that, for pretty much the same exact reason: "If I wanted to play WoW then why wouldn't I just play WoW?" Wizards alienated fans in other ways, too, but I'd care to wager this is probably what bothers people the most, that they ruined the feel of D&D and took away things that truly set it apart in order to make it more like a video game and draw in that crowd, and from what I understand they not only failed to bring those people in (because Wizards failed to realize "It's not WoW!" isn't the main reason why these people don't like pen-and-paper RPGs) but pissed off the fans they had so much they all went elsewhere to get their RPG fix. Hence why a lot of planned 4th edition products got canned and WotC is currently working on trying to get 5th edition done as soon as possible.

You can't always take a successful video game and turn it into a successful board game, and vice versa. League of Legends is more than just a "heroes vs. mobs" game (for anyone who's actually played LoL that's a pretty gross oversimplification), and in an attempt to turn that into a tabletop game you will inevitably end up changing or leaving things out entirely that make the video game experience what it is. How do you incorporate "skill shots" into the tabletop game, for example? Or how skills work in general, are you just going to turn them all into dice rolls so that players will randomly hit or miss with no control over the result? What makes you think that LoL fans will like that, who are mostly used to attacks failing simply because they activated them too soon/late or the opponent avoided them/ran away. How do you incorporate the "fog of war", which is a pretty important aspect of the video game because being able to see where your opponents are and what they're doing at all times would remove a lot of the strategy, without completely missing the point? Are you going to put a big ugly screen in the middle of the board so you can't see the other team? How does the other team coordinate and make plans anyway when you're all sitting at the same table within earshot of each other? What about the idea of hiding in bushes to escape enemies or "stealth" characters in general? There's a lot more than that, but you kinda get the idea. The OP asked if the speed and strategy of a MOBA game would translate effectively into a tabletop wargame, and I don't think it would, I think you will inevitably end up cutting a lot of things out that simply can't be ported over, and in the end you'll end up with a game that could be genuinely fun to play, but would kinda miss the point of the MOBA games that it's trying to emulate.

And I also think what I said originally still has merit: LoL is free to play, you literally don't have to spend a dime on it in order to experience the game the way it's meant to be. All spending money does is help you level up quicker with boosts, buy champs (which you can still unlock without money but it takes longer), or buy completely cosmetic changes like skins. I think it's pretty obvious that the same people who play LoL because of that F2P aspect probably wouldn't be interested in an $80+ board game, especially if they have no interest in miniatures or tabletop gaming in the first place.

Let's say the opposite happened and 40k the tabletop game was released as a computer game, complete with army building, army painting, and it even uses the same, current game rules that the actual game does (I don't know how exactly that would work, since GW's rules are so fething stupid and poorly written no computer program would be able to understand them...perhaps whoever makes said game manages to successfully incorporate a "dice off" mechanic? lmao)...but you have to buy all the in-game units for your army just like the real game, plus the game itself. Do you think 40k players would flock to that and spend hundreds of dollars on it like they do the tabletop game? Or would they stick with what they had because, while the computer game might be fun in its own right, it kinda misses the point of what makes the tabletop game attractive to people in the first place? Do you think it would be absurd for a company to expect you to shell out $50 for an in-game tank when you can just go to your game room and play with all the tanks you currently already own?

I mean I'm not trying to gak on the idea or anything, if you want to make a MOBA-style wargame/board game then by all means go ahead, I'm sure people will play it. I just don't think it would translate 100% and it wouldn't really be the same style of game. RTS games may have gotten their inspiration from wargames, but that doesn't mean you can turn Starcraft into a board game and expect it to really work the same way the computer game does. Granted they apparently did make a Starcraft board game, and while I haven't played it personally, I'm pretty sure it's Starcraft in name only, it's not at all the same kind of experience and was most likely made purely for the board gaming crowd. Same with Doom, FFG made a Doom board game (that apparently plays a lot like Space Hulk), but it's not quite the same experience you get when playing Doom 3, and even farther away from what the original Doom game was like.

As an aside, the starcraft board game obviously is very different than the video game, but they managed to incorporate a few game play elements that are reminiscent of the video game in theme. The game design encourages offensive rushing, multiple small battles, and countering each others tech trees/ army compositions.


As for he OP, the basic premesis of heroes leading respawning swarms could make for a fun game, but you would have to seriously adapt/change things from the video game. I think it would be best to use that core game setup as a guide and develop a complete game from it rather than try to port the video game.

Pretend for a moment some of us might not know what DOTA stands for....

Here you go We:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dota

I think the main difficulty in turning dota into a tabletop game would be resolving auto attacking and FoW.

I would really love a 40K game similar to DOTA. As it is I'm already playing 'Space Marine' over and over again...

Please god no. Not 40k dota

I kind of see this working, I'm not sure how you would deal with the 'infinite spawn' element, but perhaps it could work...

I wonder how you would implement a tower defense-style game as a table-top one...

The idea of a base-defense style skirmish game where you power up your character(s) over the course of the game session could actually make for a very interesting game, but a game built heavily around the concepts that make MOBAs like DotA and LoL would not work well at all.

Making a system that relies on fixed values over random chance would potentially work, but you'd have to put in a risk/reward system somewhere, in order to develop a system of yomi layers (mind games). Otherwise, the game would get very boring, very quickly. Ultimately, it would require a mechanic that would not be something you would properly see in a MOBA.
However, if pulled off properly, this could lead to a very engaging system. Something like this:
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-3-knowing-the-mind-of-the-opponent.html

40K already has a host of well-known and well-loved Heroes throughout its history, across the races, with established back-stories. DOTA doesn't hold a candle.

Imagine Logan Grimnar or Azrael, facing-off again Abbadon. It'd be a riot, but for niche market unfortunately. The probably positive effect would be that it creates more awareness and more people may get into 40K and the like...

nkelsch wrote:
I feel Super Dungeon Explore is pretty well done as a 'mobs vs heroes' system with quick easy gameplay.

I feel like you would simply need a 'hero + hero led mobs' vs 'hero + hero led mobs' with simple combat rules. As for gameplay, I think square or hex boards would be required for movement as I think it is faster and simpler.

I would love to see a a DOTA boardgame or wargame system. Some of the SDE hero vs hero custom rules may be the closest thing out there to a good gameplay system.

Super Dungeon Explore is relatively close. It's more of a "Gauntlet"-style game really, but still it's easy to see how the rules could be adapted. I sure as heck would play a game in this style and I know others who would as well. A lot of others.

Dakkadakka, today we unite and form the greatest game ever?

I dont feel the lack of randomness needs to be a necessity for a DOTA wargame to work, but a D6 is far from "realistic". You really think a Heigh Elf on horseback, who does nothing but train for his entire life at a single discipline, is going to miss his shot over half the time?

That in mind, make it happen dakka!

I am hijacking this thread because I've already made up rules for TT 40k Dota.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/494561.page

You can also use WarmaHorde models!

In Dota, as in many competitive games, reaction time and situatinal awareness are key. Though situational awareness still plays some role in wargames, it is lessened and reaction times have almost no effect.

Dota type games lend themselves much more to a video game rather than a tabletop game. I don't think it could be done without some major changes to the fundamentals. Part (most) of the skill is in quick reaction times and snap judgements, something you could never fully emulate in tabletop (even if you had timed turns, it's not the same).


Warning: just my opinion and there is no need to take it to heart.

Again, just check out my rules (It's the link in my sig RoTC), Dota could feasibly work on TT because it's more about positioning and team play rather than just map awareness and "quick reactions".

That being said, it would be great to see MORE 40K based games... you know, more than RTS games....

 dominiquekee wrote:
That being said, it would be great to see MORE 40K based games... you know, more than RTS games....

Anyone who lets me play a Necron will be thrown money at.

On a more feasible level, any game that lets me play as an Inquisitor shall have bundles of currency tossed at it.

The basic concepts of a moba type game could be translated to a tabletop fairly easily if your willing to distil things down to a slightly more abstract level. I don't think the idea of killing waves of creeps and micromanaging gold and item transactions would work well but maybe having the lanes represented by objectives your characters fight over would work. Likewise, you could use points scored from holding objectives to buy your "creeps" rather than wargear and swing the game by having more models on the table. This would keep the tempo of the game at a more comfortable level.

The biggest differences from computer games would be the turn structure that tabletop games require and the lack of fog of war. The game would certainly play out in a more strategic manner with no big surprise attacks lurking in the bushes. Both players will see what's coming and jockey for position to make the most favorable combat situations possible for them.

The table size would likely need to stay small so respawning heroes could reach the battle without spending so many turns running. Preventing the pace of the game from dragging on would be a fair challenge.

I don't think 40k is the best game to try and base this on since the functions of a 40k character are still restricted to move, shoot, attack. Malifaux masters, warmachine warcasters, or maybe even infinity special ops characters with extra orders might be better suited to the format since they all tend to have a little more freedom in how they operate.

Honestly I think it might work better as a board game than a miniatures game. You'd likely want to abstract creeps into something like a plus or minus for each lane depending on inhibitors and such, and maybe a bonus for each hero in the lane. A miniatures game would require an absolutely stupid amount of terrain to pull off, and a LOT of space to get the lanes set up properly.