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1. I fired Breath of Chaos from two of my Flamers at a squad of Marines, I could only get the two templates over three of them (each). I rolled 6 dice and scored 4 wounds, My opponent removed the closest three and tried to tell me that since the next closest wasn't in range of the template, he couldn't be killed. From my reading of the rules, you only check range before shooting, after that, the firing unit is considered 'in range' for the rest of the shooting phase "even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range". So the template determines how many hits you get, and wounds inflicted are "resolved following the normal rules" (p52). As far as I can tell the only way to stop wound allocation before emptying the wound pool is for all remaining target models to be out of LoS to all shooting models. Is this correct?

2. The same opponent told me that units with infiltrate cannot infiltrate onto enemy fortifications, but I couldn't find any mention of this. Is this correct?

1. It can be confusing but the blast just determines how many are hit, it's not those models that die. The wound pool is calculated from all fire from your unit then you choose the order your opponent must deal with those wounds. He removes models from the closest point until all unsaved wounds have been fulfilled.

2. Not sure but bear in mind If any part of the fortification is within 12 inches of one of his models then you can't set up in it.

wtnind wrote:
2. Not sure but bear in mind If any part of the fortification is within 12 inches of one of his models then you can't set up in it.

Right, but I play Daemons, so any fortifications I deploy will be unmanned at the time my opponent places his infiltrators on the table.

 undertow wrote:
1. I fired Breath of Chaos from two of my Flamers at a squad of Marines, I could only get the two templates over three of them (each). I rolled 6 dice and scored 4 wounds, My opponent removed the closest three and tried to tell me that since the next closest wasn't in range of the template, he couldn't be killed. From my reading of the rules, you only check range before shooting, after that, the firing unit is considered 'in range' for the rest of the shooting phase "even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range". So the template determines how many hits you get, and wounds inflicted are "resolved following the normal rules" (p52). As far as I can tell the only way to stop wound allocation before emptying the wound pool is for all remaining target models to be out of LoS to all shooting models. Is this correct?

The way that I explain this is that the Fire/whatever is bouncing off of the other bodies in the unit to get the ones that were out of range.

 undertow wrote:

wtnind wrote:
2. Not sure but bear in mind If any part of the fortification is within 12 inches of one of his models then you can't set up in it.

Right, but I play Daemons, so any fortifications I deploy will be unmanned at the time my opponent places his infiltrators on the table.

Yup, looks like he can, all fortifications are neutral terrain therefore anyone can use them. So yeah, doesn't sound like a good idea to use one without any models on your side

1) the template is used to determine the number of hits. If that is the only weapon in the firing unit then anything that lies beyond the template's range is indeed out of range (Like if you had a unit of flamers and only 3 guys were in range, then only 3 guys could die).

2) your opponent was incorrect you can never deploy in an enemy fortification. P.121 Left Column, Deploying within a fortification heading, 2nd Graph.

FenixZero wrote:

The way that I explain this is that the Fire/whatever is bouncing off of the other bodies in the unit to get the ones that were out of range.

Please refrain from 'fluff' explanations in YMDC.

 DeathReaper wrote:
anything that lies beyond the template's range is indeed out of range (Like if you had a unit of flamers and only 3 guys were in range, then only 3 guys could die).

Page 16 Out of Range "As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means the closest model now lies out of range"

Also page 52 "Wounds inflicted by Template weapons are allocated following the normal rules." i.e. you dont roll saves and remove models based on who is under the template it is always the closest target & look out sir etc as normal.

wtnind wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
anything that lies beyond the template's range is indeed out of range (Like if you had a unit of flamers and only 3 guys were in range, then only 3 guys could die).

Page 16 Out of Range "As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means the closest model now lies out of range"

Right, and in the OP's scenario only 3 models were in range of the templates, so all 3, and only those three, are eligible to die from the two Flamers that shot Template weapons.

wtnind wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
anything that lies beyond the template's range is indeed out of range (Like if you had a unit of flamers and only 3 guys were in range, then only 3 guys could die).

Page 16 Out of Range "As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means the closest model now lies out of range"

Yup the only way to stop removing casualties is if the next closest model is out of LoS, there the wounds are lost.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

wtnind wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
anything that lies beyond the template's range is indeed out of range (Like if you had a unit of flamers and only 3 guys were in range, then only 3 guys could die).

Page 16 Out of Range "As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means the closest model now lies out of range"

Yup the only way to stop removing casualties is if the next closest model is out of LoS, there the wounds are lost.

and if you read the scenario the OP noted, only 3 models were in range "when To Hit rolls were made" I.E. templates placed. So only 3 can die.

 DeathReaper wrote:

wtnind wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
anything that lies beyond the template's range is indeed out of range (Like if you had a unit of flamers and only 3 guys were in range, then only 3 guys could die).

Page 16 Out of Range "As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means the closest model now lies out of range"

Right, and in the OP's scenario only 3 models were in range of the templates, so all 3, and only those three, are eligible to die from the two Flamers that shot Template weapons.

Ummm the range on the flamer doesn't matter if the flamers only had range for 3 models, and they scored all their wounds say 9, you lose 9 models from that unit, you remover the first 3, now the rest of the models are out of range from the flamer but since at the beginning of the shooting phase there were 3 models, you apply out of range rule and keep allocating the flamer wounds to those who were behind

@undertow, looks like you guys were 1-1 on the rules

 DeathReaper wrote:
1) the template is used to determine the number of hits. If that is the only weapon in the firing unit then anything that lies beyond the template's range is indeed out of range (Like if you had a unit of flamers and only 3 guys were in range, then only 3 guys could die).

Where does it state this in the rules? From what I read, you only use the template to determine the number of hits. After that the template rules tell you the wounds are "resolved following the normal rules" (p52). I've looked over the rules for allocating and resolving rules in the shooting section and the only mention of range is on page 16:

"As long as the model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range".

I really see no basis in the rules for limiting wounds to only the models that could be under the template. From what I can see, if I had nine Flamers, and each could only hit the same model from a target unit, I could potentially (if I rolled well) remove nine models from the enemy unit if they were all in LOS.

 DeathReaper wrote:
2) your opponent was incorrect you can never deploy in an enemy fortification. P.121 Left Column, Deploying within a fortification heading, 2nd Graph.

The rule states (emphasis added):

"Units can never deploy inside an enemy fortification, nor can they use pre-game abilities (like Scout redployment) to embark in an enemy fortification"

If the fortification in question is a Skyshield Pad, there is no 'inside', so can a scout or infiltrating unit deploy or move onto the pad if it is unoccupied?

 undertow wrote:

The rule states (emphasis added):

"Units can never deploy inside an enemy fortification, nor can they use pre-game abilities (like Scout redployment) to embark in an enemy fortification"

If the fortification in question is a Skyshield Pad, there is no 'inside', so can a scout or infiltrating unit deploy or move onto the pad if it is unoccupied?

The Skyshield does not have an Inside, so he can infiltrate wherever he wants as long as he stays 18 inches away from any units in Line of Sight, or 12 inches away from units out of Line of Sight.

To stop this use a unit of CSM with a CSM HQ as allies to deploy on/near the pad, you will not have this issue in the future.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Ummm the range on the flamer doesn't matter if the flamers only had range for 3 models, and they scored all their wounds say 9, you lose 9 models from that unit, you remover the first 3, now the rest of the models are out of range from the flamer but since at the beginning of the shooting phase there were 3 models, you apply out of range rule and keep allocating the flamer wounds to those who were behind

That is not the correct way to do it.

This is because of the wording on P.16. It tells us that only models that were in range when to hit rolls were made are eligible for wound allocation.

Note: It says "As long as a model" not unit, model.

Yes, as long "As long as a model was" was a model inside the range of the flamer? if yes then the whole unit is considered to be in range for those wounds to be allocated

 DeathReaper wrote:
if you read the scenario the OP noted, only 3 models were in range "when To Hit rolls were made" I.E. templates placed. So only 3 can die.

You dont seem to understand the shooting phase. Please read the table on page 12 bottom left

1. nominate a unit to shoot
2. chose a target (every model that wishes to shoot must be able to see the target unit and be within range of at least one visible model in the unit.)
3. roll to hit
4. roll to wound
5.remove casualties one at a time , to the closest model in the target unit... if a model is reduced to 0 wounds it is removed as a casualty. wounds are then allocated to the next closest model. (at no point in this step does it say "after each wound measure the distance and make sure models being removed are still in range).

Ask yourself if a single model in the target unit is within half bolter range and you score 2 wounds do you only remove 1 model? no.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where you are supposed to keep removing models that are out of range. The only one that I can think of is a squad of rapid firing bolters.

Say you have 5 marines, and they are all in rapid fire range of the front guy. You roll 10 dice and it results in 3 casualties. Instead of having to redo any of it or any other complications, you just remove the front 3 instead of removing the front model and the others not being in range of rapid fire.

Does that make sense and/or is it correct?


*edit

To add to that, if it wasn't a rapid fire deal and instead they only had range to a single model than only the front model would be removed. With anything using a template, the range of the template is finite and in my opinion could not wound models that it cannot reach due to range.

DR - you have your subject: object the wrong way round for "out of range"

The subject is the FIRING Model. The FIRING model is in range for ALL shots even if some fired at models end up out of range.

Page16 - Out Of Range

This section has an obvious error in syntax. This part is misleading:
"... To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack..."

If the model was in range at the beging then it will always in range even if every model in front of it is remove. It could never be "out of range" unless something moved it in the middle of the shooting attack.

I believe the rule was meant to read like this:
"As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, the unit or the shooter is considered to be in range for the duration of the Shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means the closest model now lies out of range"

It is what makes the most sense but of course that is just my guess.


Edit: yeah what Nos is what i meant to say. LOL He just said it in a less text

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Yes, as long "As long as a model was" was a model inside the range of the flamer? if yes then the whole unit is considered to be in range for those wounds to be allocated

Yea my bad had that backwards, as long as a shooting model was in range of any model, then every model in the unit can die.

It makes more sense when you read it like this:

"As long as a [firing] model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration..."
Edit:

wtnind wrote:
You dont seem to understand the shooting phase. Please read the table on page 12 bottom left

I understand the shooting phase just fine thank you.

 rabid1903 wrote:

I'm trying to think of a scenario where you are supposed to keep removing models that are out of range.

Every scenario, read page 12.

Lets say you are shooting at 3 gretchin the distances are:
23 inches
25 inches
25 inches

You roll all the to hits lets say you get 1 las cannon hits and 2 bolter hits. Thats step 3 done
You roll to wound and wound with all of them. That's step 4done
Onto step 5. I choose to allocate the lascannon first and a gretchin dies. Where in step 5 does it say I have to re-measure the range in order to continue allocating wounds?

DeathReaper, the problem with you reasoning is that you have no permission to empty the wound pool except to either take saving throws/remove models or if the remaining models are out of LOS. Since there were still models within LOS and wounds in the wound pool he should have removed that fourth model.

Even if only a single model is in range at the time of firing you still must remove models equal to the number of wounds caused, minus any that make saves, because you have no permission to do anything else with the wounds as long as the unit is still in LOS. Once range has been checked and you move on to wounding range no longer enters into the equation, only LOS.

 Tracer Bullet wrote:
DeathReaper, the problem with you reasoning is that you have no permission to empty the wound pool except to either take saving throws/remove models or if the remaining models are out of LOS. Since there were still models within LOS and wounds in the wound pool he should have removed that fourth model.

Even if only a single model is in range at the time of firing you still must remove models equal to the number of wounds caused, minus any that make saves, because you have no permission to do anything else with the wounds as long as the unit is still in LOS. Once range has been checked and you move on to wounding range no longer enters into the equation, only LOS.

you must not have read my last post.

Unfortunately I'm just on my lunch break, so I don't have the rulebook with me and I'll have to check it when I get home. But I thought that I remembered it mentioning somewhere that you only remove models that you have range and LOS to. Granted, I might be mixing house rules with rulebook rules and I apologize if that's the case.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tracer Bullet wrote:
DeathReaper, the problem with you reasoning is that you have no permission to empty the wound pool except to either take saving throws/remove models or if the remaining models are out of LOS. Since there were still models within LOS and wounds in the wound pool he should have removed that fourth model.

Even if only a single model is in range at the time of firing you still must remove models equal to the number of wounds caused, minus any that make saves, because you have no permission to do anything else with the wounds as long as the unit is still in LOS. Once range has been checked and you move on to wounding range no longer enters into the equation, only LOS.

you must not have read my last post.

I'd say give him the BotD on this one; the times of your post and his post are close enough that he could have been replying as you posted.

Anything over 5mins after, unless it's a large post, can more easily be attributed to not reading previous posts.

 rabid1903 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm just on my lunch break, so I don't have the rulebook with me and I'll have to check it when I get home. But I thought that I remembered it mentioning somewhere that you only remove models that you have range and LOS to. Granted, I might be mixing house rules with rulebook rules and I apologize if that's the case.

Page 16, you are thinking of 4th ed which 6th edition has *partially* returned to, where you can only remove models in LOS *however* if a model in the fired-at unit is in range at the start of shooting the whole unit can die.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 rabid1903 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm just on my lunch break, so I don't have the rulebook with me and I'll have to check it when I get home. But I thought that I remembered it mentioning somewhere that you only remove models that you have range and LOS to. Granted, I might be mixing house rules with rulebook rules and I apologize if that's the case.

Page 16, you are thinking of 4th ed which 6th edition has *partially* returned to, where you can only remove models in LOS *however* if a model in the fired-at unit is in range at the start of shooting the whole unit can die.

Thanks for clearing that up nosferatu. Makes sense why I'd associate the range limitation with it now, 4th edition is when I played most of my games.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tracer Bullet wrote:
DeathReaper, the problem with you reasoning is that you have no permission to empty the wound pool except to either take saving throws/remove models or if the remaining models are out of LOS. Since there were still models within LOS and wounds in the wound pool he should have removed that fourth model.

Even if only a single model is in range at the time of firing you still must remove models equal to the number of wounds caused, minus any that make saves, because you have no permission to do anything else with the wounds as long as the unit is still in LOS. Once range has been checked and you move on to wounding range no longer enters into the equation, only LOS.

you must not have read my last post.

Apologies, I was looking through my rulebook to make sure I had the points clear before I posted, I didn't see that you had edited your position.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 undertow wrote:

The rule states (emphasis added):

"Units can never deploy inside an enemy fortification, nor can they use pre-game abilities (like Scout redployment) to embark in an enemy fortification"

If the fortification in question is a Skyshield Pad, there is no 'inside', so can a scout or infiltrating unit deploy or move onto the pad if it is unoccupied?

The Skyshield does not have an Inside, so he can infiltrate wherever he wants as long as he stays 18 inches away from any units in Line of Sight, or 12 inches away from units out of Line of Sight.

To stop this use a unit of CSM with a CSM HQ as allies to deploy on/near the pad, you will not have this issue in the future.

I don't run allies in my Daemon army (note, I don't have any problems with allies in general). I don't want to pay an 'ally tax' just on the off chance I'd face someone with infiltrate that would deploy on my pad, especially since he can't really do anything except die to my Flamers unless he goes first.

The rulebook says "The top surface of the Skyshield Landing Pad is open terrain". The structure itself is still a fortification, so I'm still leaning towards not allowing enemy Infiltrators to deploy on it.