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I've been reading up on alot of views and opinions about how chaos got better/worse and I'm not sure about all of it anymore.

I dont think they can be looked at in such simple terms. We say 1k sons are bad now, but i say if you want to play with a slow marching gun line they do the job like no other. Mutilators I even have a soft spot for, I think they would be pretty fun to throw in, and deep down I think you do to

I think we have to look at everything as part of the army.
Being able to fine tune so much of it opens hundreds of doors to how you want to play. It actually stumped me for a while as i just didnt know what to pick from when given so much choice.

Chosen fit this idea very well in my example. We have a strongish unit that can really go to town on the options.
I've looked at melta chosen, Flamer chosen, Lightning claw chosen and seen potential in all. BUT, I have flamers of Tzeentch to use, so the flamer isnt as usefull. The lightning claw and melta now serve as my scalpel unit to fit to the rest of my army, depending on the rest of the list.

On the flip side you can go to town and make these guys kings, for a high price, but if you wanted a powerhouse thats good anywhere, they could fill in that aswell.

Obviously I cant argue that some units come out better than others all said and done, some wargear just does more damage, some units just always feel too expensive, but its not to write off everything else beacuse a few combos work really well.

I dont think we have naturally good or bad units anymore, but how we build these units and how they fit into your army is what makes them good or bad.

Well i've revived my Iron warriors with the arrival of this codex and have played several games with them now and havent lost yet, and i'm just using troops and helbrutes nothing fancy.

Now this is part luck and part my experience with 40k but it puzzles me when people say its a bad codex.

Its not necron level by any means but its not a terrible codex by a long shot, its balanced and flexible and i just think people are hurt they didnt get 3.5 again.

That said if dark angels and deamons come out and are stupidly strong then chaos players have a right to bitch.

The Chaos Marine codex was going to disappoint some people no matter what, since so many people just wanted 3.5 back regardless of the fact that GW wouldn't do that again.

The next few codices were allegedly balanced against each other along with the Chaos Marines codex, so hopefully they should all be around the same power level.

I see your point, being first in line is a nervous place to stand but I hope future releases follow this trend of being a "nice" codex. One that's open and wont see copypaste lists as all the lists.

I actually went for a mostly undivided list. Hurion is just so good anywhere and a good sorcerer is a handy friend to have.Yet to try it but with it being so cutomizable I don't think my opponent will know what to shoot.

Chaos DOES have a couple of really bad choices, Warp Talons being king amongst gimps. And some that really should have been good if designed better, like Mutilators. Squad size 3? REALLY?

That being said, Chaos overall has gotten an ok boost, in my opinon, and most importantly, a huge increase in viable lists. No longer are the 2 DPs an auto include, but a single DP can devastate terminator squads in one turn, for example. All the chaos lords are useful! Stuff like that. Ofcourse, this did come with the drawback of having to do themed lists, due to cult troops being elite, but I find this to promote a more fun game.

I think gameplay wise the big change is that while the bulk of the army is no more mobile than before, particularly the troops, we have recieved a much bigger focus on the Fast Attack choices. Bikers and Spawn are both amazing, and even Raptors can be useful. Helldrakes, ofcourse, are amazing. Given that Chaos Lords also have some great mobility options, like Juggs or bikes, Chaos tend to have a lot more mobile uuumph that before, where our main means of reaching out fast was the inevitable DPs. This does make a good difference in gameplay.

Other than that, the codex also plays a bit more shooty now, partily due to 6th, but also because the Heavy Support section, that was already pretty good, now has gotten better. T5 Obliterators(have yet to have a problem with the rotating guns), very cheap autocannon havoks, dirt cheap tri-las predators etc means that chaos can put a really decent long range AT, while still being able to bring a lot of meltas as well. AT generally does not seem a problem.

Chaos also seems to wreck face just as much in melee as before, with the sad saaad exception of the Khorne Bezerkers.

The main problem is that we can't actually ignore melee either, due to the Champion of Chaos rules forcing us to make good duelist sargents. No longer can we just give everyone PFs. It's not a terrible price to pay for the awesomeness of Marks etc, but it IS something that requires adjusting your playstyle, particularly when faced with the rare ICs that actually beat chaos HQs, like the Swarmlord.

Finally, I do find there is a bit of a trap in a lot of the more versitile chaos units we get now. Particularly the Chosen, but also the normal CSM. It is VERY tempting to fill them up, but you really should not. I never found a pimped up Chosen squad to be worth their points, and neither did I find heavily invested CSM squads to be worth it either. Particularly with Chosen, you really REALLY want to focus on a function, and just make them amazing at it. And frankly, melee ain't it. I personally prefer to run the awesome 5 plasma rifle squad. MCs? Nope! Tanks? Nope! Terminators? Oh hells nope!

I really think mutilators are overlooked to some degree.
They are basically a small terminator unit with the weaponry to scare every unit near them.
I wouldn't like to see them face a hoard but I feel they could cause some fear.
They are expensive but they are flexible. Point them at something and watch them play. They should have fun.

I'm actually of the mindset of cult units being unlocked as a happy extra.
I won't compare points etc but my thinking is only a couple of cult builds really shine over marked marines. With the sheer number of HQ choices and my love of sorcery I can still make a good list that's not thrown in a lord cause plauge marines are king.
I'm also fine with this because it let's be be more aggressive with cult units as I don't loose a troop that could be scoring points.
Course that's just me, till I learn some hard lessons :p

DonerStoom wrote:
I really think mutilators are overlooked to some degree.
They are basically a small terminator unit with the weaponry to scare every unit near them.
I wouldn't like to see them face a hoard but I feel they could cause some fear.
They are expensive but they are flexible. Point them at something and watch them play. They should have fun.

My main beef with Mutilators is a combination of the small squad size and the fact that they can't use the same melee weapon two turns in a row (not to mention the models are terrible). Considering there's only 3 of them, a marine squad with a couple plasma weapons in it is very capable of reducing them to half strength or worse in a single volley. Not so great if you also want to be assaulting said squad. 1 mutilator might be able to tarpit a unit for a turn or two, but it's going to be fighting an uphill battle if it wants to actually wipe out a unit. Throw in the fact that they can't even sweeping advance and the one thing that they may have had going for them (charging in, causing a bunch of casualties and then running them down) is gone too. I feel like they just weren't well thought out. Take the points you would spend on mutilators and put them into an assault terminator squad. It'll do the job better.

DonerStoom wrote:
I've been reading up on alot of views and opinions about how chaos got better/worse and I'm not sure about all of it anymore.

I dont think they can be looked at in such simple terms. We say 1k sons are bad now, but i say if you want to play with a slow marching gun line they do the job like no other. Mutilators I even have a soft spot for, I think they would be pretty fun to throw in, and deep down I think you do to

I think we have to look at everything as part of the army.
Being able to fine tune so much of it opens hundreds of doors to how you want to play. It actually stumped me for a while as i just didnt know what to pick from when given so much choice.

Chosen fit this idea very well in my example. We have a strongish unit that can really go to town on the options.
I've looked at melta chosen, Flamer chosen, Lightning claw chosen and seen potential in all. BUT, I have flamers of Tzeentch to use, so the flamer isnt as usefull. The lightning claw and melta now serve as my scalpel unit to fit to the rest of my army, depending on the rest of the list.

On the flip side you can go to town and make these guys kings, for a high price, but if you wanted a powerhouse thats good anywhere, they could fill in that aswell.

Obviously I cant argue that some units come out better than others all said and done, some wargear just does more damage, some units just always feel too expensive, but its not to write off everything else beacuse a few combos work really well.

I dont think we have naturally good or bad units anymore, but how we build these units and how they fit into your army is what makes them good or bad.

I really think the upcoming DA codex will settle my opinion on CSM for good. If the DA codex is more or less powerbalanced with CSM, I'll love CSM for years. If the DA release is like the BA release, I burn all of Nottingham.

Don't be so quick to dismiss warp talons. With MOT they hold a 4+ invul and their blind trick works really well on most armies, as it almost always affects something.

inb4 chaos rants!