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Hello,
During a recent game, me and a friend disagreed on how Smash works. I searched the forum, but couldn't find this question being answered (a similar one was, but not the same).
I had a Daemon Prince armed with the Black Mace. If he elects to make a Smash attack, does he still get the benefit of the Black Mace? I will separate this into two parts:
First, does he get the +D6 attacks?
Secondly, do the cursed and fleshbane rules apply?

I said yes to the first regardless of the second, as the +D6 attacks applies to the model bearing the weapon, and does not matter if they are using it, unless they are equipped with more than one weapon.
I said yes to the second as well, because nothing in the way I read the rules say you don't use your equipped weapon when making a Smash attack (although I found nothing allowing you to use a weapon in Assault at all).
My friend argued that because Smash says you make the Smash attack "instead of" the regular close combat attacks, you do not gain the benefit of any weapon equipped.

What's the consensus here? Is there one?

Also, if a model roles 1 for his Daemon weapon roll for the Black Mace, does he need to take a toughness test, and causes the cursed effect if he survives?

Considering Smash says "Additionally, when it makes its close
combat attacks, it can choose to instead make a Smash Attack."

Smash attack is a CC attack.

You use a weapon when making CC attacks.

All of the rules for the Black Mace apply to the smash attacks, as they are CC attacks.

Is there anything more than that? He was certain that the use of the word "instead" meant no weapon was used, although I am not sure why.

That is wrong, more or less.

The Black Mace effects applies to any attacks made with it in close combat, including those benefiting from any other rules such as the 'Smash' USR.

(The smash USR even specifically mentions how it interacts with weapons the monstrous creature may be wielding in it's own rules-text)

kaisshau wrote:
Is there anything more than that? He was certain that the use of the word "instead" meant no weapon was used, although I am not sure why.

Nothing more needed, unless he is saying that using the Smash rule to double the strength is not a CC attack. Because CC attacks are made with a weapon.

I think that might have been his argument. That since it was made "instead of" close combat attacks, it was some other kind of attack.

Double strength, half number of attacks. So basically all it does is make it str x2, AP2 and +d3 attacks (and also minus half the base attacks)

If you're lucky, you will attack your normal amount of attacks at double str at AP2

Some of that info posted by Khalbrae is mistaken: 'Smash' only halves the base attack # characteristic of the model.

You'd treat any additional attacks as normal (ie: explicitly not cut in half) : including those from charging, rage (and similar) usrs, the Black Mace itself, etc.

(as per the 6th ed FAQ)
Q: The rulebook says that you halve your Attacks characteristic if you perform a Smash attack. However, if a Monstrous Creature has an uneven number of Attacks, (3 for example), but has charged that turn, does it receive the bonus Attack for charging before or after halving its Attacks? (p42)
A: You halve the model’s Attacks characteristic first, then apply any additional modifiers. In the example above, the model would halve its Attacks first (rounding up to 2), then receive a bonus Attack for charging.

Khalbrae wrote:
Double strength, half number of attacks. So basically all it does is make it str x2, AP2 and +d3 attacks (and also minus half the base attacks)

If you're lucky, you will attack your normal amount of attacks at double str at AP2

5 Attacks Base/2 (round up), so 2.5 attacks becomes 3 attacks, then +1 for charging, and +d6 for Mace all at Strength 10/AP2 and re-rolling penetration against vehicles, so anywhere between 6 and 10 attacks.

And even if you don't Smash, your melee attacks are always AP2. Smash has that as a passive ability that is always on.

I would like someone to reply on his previous question about whether or not the prince has to take a toughness test from the Black Mace special rule if he rolls a 1 for demon weapon... That seems very intriguing because if you have the right to use its abilities when smashing, what stops it from making you take the test if you roll a 1?

Station's Creation wrote:
I would like someone to reply on his previous question about whether or not the prince has to take a toughness test from the Black Mace special rule if he rolls a 1 for demon weapon... That seems very intriguing because if you have the right to use its abilities when smashing, what stops it from making you take the test if you roll a 1?

The fact that nowhere does the codex tell us that the wound is caused by the daemon weapon. Only that when the model goes to use it roll a d6, on a roll of 1 the models "suffers a wound with no armor saves possible." Does he take the wound from the daemon weapon? He does not because he simple suffers the wound, not takes a wound from the daemon weapon.

TYVM Dragoon, got confused with the last codex , thought it said something like "they weapon rebels and hits the wielder"...

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

Station's Creation wrote:
I would like someone to reply on his previous question about whether or not the prince has to take a toughness test from the Black Mace special rule if he rolls a 1 for demon weapon... That seems very intriguing because if you have the right to use its abilities when smashing, what stops it from making you take the test if you roll a 1?

The fact that nowhere does the codex tell us that the wound is caused by the daemon weapon. Only that when the model goes to use it roll a d6, on a roll of 1 the models "suffers a wound with no armor saves possible." Does he take the wound from the daemon weapon? He does not because he simple suffers the wound, not takes a wound from the daemon weapon.

Its like taking a Gets Hot roll. The wound doesn't come from anywhere. Its not from the gun. Its just something that happens if you roll a certain number.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

Station's Creation wrote:
I would like someone to reply on his previous question about whether or not the prince has to take a toughness test from the Black Mace special rule if he rolls a 1 for demon weapon... That seems very intriguing because if you have the right to use its abilities when smashing, what stops it from making you take the test if you roll a 1?

The fact that nowhere does the codex tell us that the wound is caused by the daemon weapon. Only that when the model goes to use it roll a d6, on a roll of 1 the models "suffers a wound with no armor saves possible." Does he take the wound from the daemon weapon? He does not because he simple suffers the wound, not takes a wound from the daemon weapon.

Its like taking a Gets Hot roll. The wound doesn't come from anywhere. Its not from the gun. Its just something that happens if you roll a certain number.

Get's hot comes from a plasma gun, it's the plasma gun that has the rule. If it wasn't from the plasmagun, I'd have to take an armor save when I fired my bolt pistol while I carry a plasmagun.

-Matt

Its not a Str7 AP2 wound is what I meant. It happens because you shot with a Plasma gun. Just like the Daemon Weapon where if you roll a 1 for the number of attacks you take a wound.

No you wont take a tough test from a roll on the deamon weapon rule from the black mace some dudes above explained why very well.
also djdarknoise explained how you do the math for number of attacks with a black mace while doing a smash attack.