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I'm starting an eldar army and looking through the codex and having several large squads of guardians seems like a great choice. Any advice on guardians like if they work with certain units and the like

juggernaut979 wrote:
I'm starting an eldar army and looking through the codex and having several large squads of guardians seems like a great choice. Any advice on guardians like if they work with certain units and the like

Fearless guardians work (combine with avatar).
Minimum storm guardians with flamers and destructor warlock in serp works.
Guardians on jet bikes work.

I haven't seen anything else work.

-Matt

I was thinking of running two 20 man squads with conceal warlock and then a ten man wraithguard squad to balance out durability and weight of fire power between my troops

They are definitely worth taking, but don't rely on them to hold objectives for you (i.e don't take nothing but Guardians). You bring some decent scoring units i.e Marines or plenty of Guard to do that, Wraithguard fill this role as well but are seriously expensive. I've actually found that half the time I end up using them as screening units to absorb charges (with Fearless Avatar bubble) rather than objective claimers, that's why you bring some more durable scoring units and a couple of small Jetbike units as well. Imo for an infantry based Eldar list 2 x 10 Guardians and 2 x 3 Jetbikes should be your auto includes as troops.

As a general rule its not worth taking 20 man units of them though, they only get a single heavy weapon no matter the size of the unit, so you are usually going to be better off taking 2 x 10 rather than 1 x 20. Price wise its only marginally more expensive, since you don't really need Warlocks in every unit (they don't help with Ld and you should usually be in the Avatar bubble anyway) and one unit can screen another so not every unit need Conceal. Certainly when you are running Wraithguard I wouldn't suggest running even more large unwieldy blobs of infantry, you need the extra units to give you some flexibility.

I'd say they are. They have a bit of a reputation among my group, as the Eldar player among us always takes them, and they constantly do ridiculous things, like taking down vehicles or slaughtering infantry, especially when the odds are really against them. I usually see them in squads of 10, because the rest are a bit of a waste of points with just one long-range weapon.

I take at least 2 10 mans in every list I make, but I enjoy taking the units that the internet says suck, so YMMV

I do take a 20 man unit with a conceal lock, but I use them to shield eldrad and transport him upfield so he can fortune the avatar to the other side of the table. You can also use them to help transport other squads by giving cover saves. Just put them in the middle of the big squad and bubble wrap them in the guardians. However, taking 10 man squads is easier, and they are a lot better than people give them credit for.

I bring one or two packs of guardian jetbikes in every list I build.

I run 3 guardian bikes with a shuricannon and accompany them with a warlock with a singing spear and embolden.

With the massive turbo boost buff in 6th, jump shoot jump, 3+ saves and rerolling leadership these squads are consistently my mvps since they can instantly claim objectives on the last turns of the game, and survive a reasonable amount of return fire. Never underestimate mobility.

Also their weapon loadout, durability, and jump shoot jump allow them to provide more effective fire support than guardian defenders at all ranges

If you have the avatar, 10 man squads of guardians with a scatter laser work very nicely. Surprisingly effective, and usually stick around for a while with the avatar fearless bubble.

The guardian jetbike squad akaean mentioned is fantastic for any eldar army.

Hell no.

Defender Guardians are currently the least (or one of) point-effective model in the game. You are paying ~100 points for a squad whose only purpose is going to ground on an objective. With the advent of allies, just grab guard allies if you really need something to do this, as vets do better than guadians in any reasonable situation. They are a point sink for newer players that seriously hamper your ability to do anything productive.

Storm guardians are just as bad, but can get melta. I used to run 10 with 2x fusion guns in reserve in my shooty 5th eldar tourney army and they did very well, but 6th made them far less useful with the nerfing of shooty eldar.
2/10

Between the advent of focus fire and the nerfing of cover saves guardians got worse in 6th. Serpents also got worse, meaning taking them with a wave serpent is just compounding bad on worse. At 5 point/model they may be decent (stat line of a termigaunt with +1 save without the good upgrades), but 8 is just silly.

And who runs the avatar now? Not only does he not improve on the huge flaws of guardians (5+ save, 8pts/model, poor heavy weapon cost/upgrade and quantity) but he also takes a HQ slot that is even more valuable in 6th with psykers being even stronger. He is worse vs armor now and really only works in wraithwall where farseers are even more in demand. LD is now less of a problem than it was in 5th since you can regroup easily down to 25% easily.


Guardian jetbikes, however, are better than ever. 48" turbo jumps, great at harassing down a HP or two from light vehicles, and can be reserved to protect them until the big shooters are dead. I run 2-3 squads of 3 with cannons in reserve and they serve me very well. 7/10.

Edit: Adding a warlock to guardian squads is a waste of points, especially jetbikes ones. The point of taking guardian jetbikes is to be cost effective and a good harassment unit. At ~130 points for 4 models, you are no longer cost effective and are now a higher priority target, which will get you killed faster. If you are adding warlocks to ground squads you are giving them very little in CC or range additional and making them even more expensive from what they were.

Ditto on Guardian Jetbikes. As a MEQ player, to see Guardian Jetbikes makes me cry. :(

zephoid wrote:

Edit: Adding a warlock to guardian squads is a waste of points, especially jetbikes ones. The point of taking guardian jetbikes is to be cost effective and a good harassment unit. At ~130 points for 4 models, you are no longer cost effective and are now a higher priority target, which will get you killed faster. If you are adding warlocks to ground squads you are giving them very little in CC or range additional and making them even more expensive from what they were.

I disagree. The warlock is worth it because he improves leadership, and increases versatility. Leadership 8 is very mediocre, and whether or not your squad stays on the objective after a billy of fire can be the difference between a win and a loss.

At the same time, the spear let's the squad engage side and rear armor more effectively, and opens up the option to charge tanks. This let's the squad engage a far wider spectrum of opponents.

I do agree that strictly looking at damage per point, the warlock isn't worth it, but when it comes to improving what jetbikes are supposed to do, he is solidly worth it

Warlocks are LD8 too. Yeah.... silly aint it.

Your guardians will rarely be in 12" of a vehicle and even then its 1 shot For 30-40 points you can do better by simply taking a full DA squad with exarch, bladestorm, and 2x catapults. More survivable and nearly the same cost with much more damage output.

For GJB, you are 50% the point cost of a 3 man unit just for some small chance at AT. The point of GJB squads is to remain out of sight as much as possible and only close to within 12" on rare occasions. 3 bikes are also easier to hide than 4. Finally, you want GJB to die in assault from anything worthwhile so you can shoot that unit. Sticking around to die in your own assault phase is a waste. If being shot at, its not really a problem since falling back still allows regroup even if only 1 is left at LD8. Then returning to the objective is easy with the assault move

Yes,I have killed a dreadknight in one turn of combat!

I usually take two 10 man squads and they work a treat!

I made a Guardian Based army for a person online that had a lot of guardiansa and sorely wanted something that could compete. This was a ehile back but I still had the report. I made it and tested it. Here was the resulting battle report:

Round 1:
The War Walkers unloaded on the Long Fangs on their side of the board. Killed all 6.
D-Cannon was out of range.
Lances Fired, I hit with three of them and killed a Rhino. Out poured the Blood Claws (I think).
The Bikers zoomed up the right side and unloaded with their Shuriken Cannons on the other LongFangs, and killed two.

The Space Wolves responded, moving forward. The Rhino led the charge up the middle to midboard. The two units with Cyclones fired them and pounded my bikes, killing 4 because they were too far from the War Walkers to hit them. The longfangs shot at the bikes also and managed to kill 2. It was at 1/2 strength already. Not good. The Thunderwolf Cavalry and their doggies rolled well and ran to within striking distance of my Guardians, forcing them to choose their poison: The Rhino or the Cav?

Round 2:
The War Walkers Unloaded on the doggies, and wiped out most of that unit. The D-Cannon blasted away at the Thunderwolf cav once the screen was gone, but scatter didn't go well and it killed just one Thunderwolf Cav.
The Avatar stayed where it was and waited...
One unit of guardians moved and ran to spread itself out at an angle, blocking the Doggies and Thunderwolf cavalry from multicharging other Guardians etc... The other three units of guardians scattered away from the middle and ran also, so that if the Guardian screen fell, they would be in better firing position.
The Autarch and Storm Guardians did not roll well enough to join the fight.
The Bikers fired into the Longfangs again, and finished them, then jumped back to avoid getting charged and to spread out to avoid the nasty Cyclones.

As predicted the Doggies moved and ran to cover in the hopes of tying up the Avatar next round and to avoid the D-Cannon and making room for the thunderwolf cavalry to charge.
The Rhino charged forward and dropped its payload, who then shot at the fleeing Guardians and killed some as their brethren slogged behind them trying to get in the fight.
The terminator led troops split off to chase the bikes down and fired on them again, but this time none died. the second unit split to the left and fired at the WarWalkers, killing two! Ouch. Couldn't have rolled better. Straight 6's.
The Thunderwolf Cavalry charged and annihilated the Guardians to a man with their leader amongst them creating much carnage. pretty much melted me like buttah. They consolidated to cut off any escape from their next multicharge... Unfortunately, they were exposed and would have to weather it.

Round 3:
The D-Cannon fired at the Rhino unit that had just pumped shots into the Guardians to devastating effect. The unit melted, killing all but the flamer and sergeant. It was pretty awesome.
The Avatar threw the wailing doom and wounded a Thunderwolf Cavalryman with it.
The Bikers Turboboosted over a hill past the oncoming troops, to avoid them for a round.
The Guardians on the right fired and killed the remaining dogs. The lone guardian squad on the left popped the Rhino after moving away.
The War Walkers then fired on the thunderwolf Cavalry, killing 1 and wounding the leader once. Not super awesome but its progress.
The Avatar charged the Thunderwolf cavalry and the HQ alone to keep them busy. He killed 1 Thundercavalryman BUT took 2 wounds! Ouch.
The Storm Guardians zoomed onto the board and landed midfield on the left with no viable target for them to attack.

The first Terminator led unit moved further left towards the Storm Guardians and fired into the WarWalkers, finishing one of the units with a Cyclone. The unit that had moved towards the bikes now had no target and decided to move towards the right side guardians, laying down Cyclone blasts as they approached and killing several, but because of the avatar the Eldar held.
The Flamer+Sergeant unit that were left from the D-Cannon devastation rushed the Guardians, flamed them, then charged them to avoid further D-Cannon barrages. They won the combat but the Avatar held their morale.
The unit that had been blown from its rhino in round 1 joined the battle with the Avatar. The Avatar slew the enemy HQ, and managed to make his saves. The Thunderwolf held its ground, but the Marine unit did not and fell back!

Round 4:
The remaining WarWalker unit killed 3, the Bikers behind the hill killed 2, along with the Wave Serpent killing 2 into the left side Terminator led unit. the Guardians on that side moved up and fired on them as well, killing 3 wit hShuriken and Lance fire! The Autarch and his StormGuardians fired their three fusion Blasters into the unit as well, killing 1 (what can ya' do). The net result was that the unit was nearly blown away. The War Walkers and the Autarchs unit then charged, killing all but the terminator, who ran and was cut down after failing fearless saves.

The D-Cannon really had no good choices for targets , but fired at the Terminator led unit on the right that was fast approaching, and killed 4, which was pretty good since they were scattered well.
The Guardians on the right lost combat again to the Sergeant+Flamer (killed the Sergeant) but the Warlock survived and the Avatar made him stand his ground. The other Guardians ran to avoid the charge next turn by the terminator led unit on the right.

The Marines that the Avatar made run fell back again (too close to the Avatar) while the Terminator led unit made their move on the Guardians on the right, falling just short of the charge (as planned), but they did shoot the Guardians up since they were in the open and they were too far away to be fearless, so they did have to roll and only really survived because of Conceal. The Lone flamer guy fought and killed the last Warlock finally that he was battling and consolidtaed next to the D-Cannons.

Round 5: The War Walkers, now freed of combat, moved and fired, finishing the lone Flamer (what a waste, but hey, it was KP's). the Storm Guardians jumped in their vehicle and zoomed toward the action. The D-Cannon fired at the last terminator led unit and missed badly, hitting its own unit. of Guardians. OOPS. Not great in the last round of a game.
The Bikers, seeing no reason not to,turboboosted close enough to keep the Marines that were fleeing, fleeing.
The tattered Guardians fired at the terminator led squad and killed one with their lance defiantly.
The avatar killed the Thunderwolf Cavalry guy finally and moved right to bolster his fellow units.

The Marines fled but on their way out they killed 3 bikers and forced a morale test. They passed. Seeing that almost their entire force was gone, the Terminator led unit crashed into the D-Cannons and tore it apart for an easy KP. No contest.

Game ended.
I lost a WarWalker Squadron, D-Cannon, 2 Guardian Squads
The enemy lost 2 Rhinos, A "hound" unit, 2 units of BloodClaws (or whatever they were), thundercav, their Wolf HQ, 2 LongFangs, One of their Terminator guys (if he counts) and the unit that was with him. Again, I am somewhat embarrassed at my lack of knowledge about the names of the units, so fill in the blanks there. If I had army builder nearby I'd tell you.

The MVP was clearly the Avatar who made a big difference in this game. Had he been any less cool, I might have lost the D-Cannon and more Guardians sooner, and his last Cav guy might have made a mess of something, but cutting that HQ in half with the Wailing Doom was the high point of the game for me.
EDIT: after thinking about it, the diversion of the Bikes really saved other units as well. The Terminator led units moving laterally and trying to get to the bikes really helped later on.
.

zephoid wrote:
Warlocks are LD8 too. Yeah.... silly aint it.

You are funny! I was talking about the re-roll that you get from embolden, which effectively makes leadership 8 a lot more reliable. The re-roll also helps with regroup rolls, so if you have managed to fail 2 ld8 tests, you get an additional 2 leadership tests to regroup. Which means if the warlock is alive your squad is less likely to break, and more likely to regroup. Also note that I often find that in order to claim objectives on the final turn, I need to put my Jetbikes into harms way, or at least more fire than normal, a re-roll on leadership is especially important on last turn objective caps, because falling back will cause you to lose the objective, and there might not be another turn.

As for the anti tank, I'm often suprised how often my Jetbikes will assault vehicles. I mean, they are reasonably survivable, easily fast enough to get to side or rear armor on isolated back field fire support units. In 6th edition, my Eldar play style has shifted to small, independent units, and using my mobility to surround my opponent and make them fight from angels that they are not used to. I've come to accept that I will never win an all out assault battle, or an all out shooting battle. Sometimes I'll need my Jetbikes to wipe out a predator sitting on an objective in Big Guns Never Tire, and truth be told with a singing spear throw + assault, I can likely glance it to death in 1 turn if I have side arc.

I respect your position, and there was a time when I would have agreed with you. But through experience and a lot of trial and error running jetbikes in almost every game I've played, my squads with warlocks have been far more reliable and flexible than squads without. And while the cost is steep, I and many others pay it gladly.

Couldn't agree more on spear-wielding Warlocks in every GJB squad. They give the unit a very viable new role in tank hunting. I like Destructor more than Embolden for small units. Just like the spear, it allows the unit to do things very well that it couldn't do before. A heavy flamer on something moving that fast is pretty excellent.

But for 6+1 units, I find Embolden essential to protect my investment. Failing Ld sucks on Jetbikes.

i'm very fond of gaurdian squads. I use a squad of 20 with a warlock and a shurikun cannon. I use them in tandum with my dire avengers which is led by one of the farseers. blade storm and and a 'guided' squad of gaurdians both shooting at a 'doomed' enemy is delightful!

Guardians on foot are bad. Really bad. At best they are 8 point bullet catchers, at worst they are a waste of points. You can do some fearless tricks with an Avatar, but their still overpriced horribly.

As an eldar player, you want to take as troops Eldar Jetbike squads for late game scoring/contesting, and DE warrior allies for objective camping.

I'm advocating them for some different reasons as to why I use them.

1. They are painted. I generally don't ever use unpainted models and I've got about 50 Guardians painted.
2. Aesthetics. There are definitely more efficient units available to Eldar players, especially considering allies. I've been toying around with DE allies as their basic Warrior unit is better than a Guardian unit. Some folks haven't quite accepted all the allies combos in an army. It took me awhile, but I still kinda roll my eyes when I see Ork/Necron armies on the table. After 20+ years in the hobby, it's a bit weird to see how allies have so quickly become commonplace with 6th edition.

However, I have had success running the following squad in my army:

19 Guardians/1 Warlock (Conceal), Scatterlaser

I attach Maugan Ra to the unit, making them Fearless. I now have a reasonable shooting unit (8 shots at 36"). I also will cast Fortune on this unit and the combination of Maugan Ra/Conceal/Fortune makes this quite a durable unit against shooting.

If folks opt to go into assault against it, this is fine. The Guardians can die, but Maugan Ra can still offset a lot of wounds thanks to mixed armor saves and careful positioning. This will generally tie up whatever unit assaulted the Guardians and now allows me to set up the counterassault with my Harlequins.

I've also had instances where folks truly think the Guardians are terrible and jump some expensive unit out to shoot at them and do very little (DW Terminators, Sternguard from Drop Pods are common examples). In my turn, Eldrad (who is in nearly any Eldar army), Guide, Fortune and Doom is cast and said expensive unit gets destroyed by the lowly Guardian. Having said that, those opponents tend to not to try that trick again.

But, I also run GJB squads for the same reasons other posters have indicated.

I'm not claiming Guardians are uber choices, but I think a lot has to do with what you already own and/or willing to spend $$$$ on. I don't have an IG allies contingent built/painted yet, so that is not an option for my Eldar army. I've got a small DE allied contingent painted now and it's been working ok for me. Nothing fantastic, but not horrible either. I could easily substitute my Guardians for 20 DE Warriors with Splinter Cannons and have similar success with them. I'd likely have to tweak my psychic powers however, so I could get Prescience as I can't cast Guide/Fortune on DE squads. With them, I'm trading mobile cover (Warlock) for better BS and better shooting.

If you already have the Guardians, give them a try. If not, I'd likely not spend the $$$$ on them and work other troop options into your army.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Guardians on foot are bad. Really bad. At best they are 8 point bullet catchers, at worst they are a waste of points. You can do some fearless tricks with an Avatar, but their still overpriced horribly.

As an eldar player, you want to take as troops Eldar Jetbike squads for late game scoring/contesting, and DE warrior allies for objective camping.

If you want decent scoring units then why would you ally with Dark Eldar? Their troops are just as bad as ours, and they really don't bring a hell of a lot to the table that Eldar can use other than the 2++ re-rollable shenanigans (a fragile flier? a fragile assault unit?). If you want decent scoring units for Eldar (which is a stupid way of phrasing it really, you NEED decent scoring units) then you should be allying with some form of Marines (for quality) or Guard (for quantity). I'm using Guardians in my foot based list at the moment, but since I'm also bringing 20 Marines I don't have to rely on them as my only scoring units and I can happily use them as screening units (yes they are overpriced, but they are still cheaper than Marines or any of my MCs). They also tend to live quite a bit longer when there are plenty of other threats around them and give me more board presence than if I was just running Jetbikes. They are also helpful for foot based lists because they let you bring Warlocks, which you need a couple of if you are running Wraithlords to stop them going stupid.

Powerguy wrote:
If you want decent scoring units then why would you ally with Dark Eldar?

They are battle bro's so you can use Eldrad's diviniation powers on him

Powerguy wrote:
Their troops are just as bad as ours

For 1 more point they get a better BS, a 24" ranged rapid fire weapon, poisoned ranged weapons, the ability to take special weapons, cheap heavy weapons, and the ability to ignore night fighting.
Their much better than guardians.

Powerguy wrote:
they really don't bring a hell of a lot to the table that Eldar can use

Massive poisoned shots.
While your meta may be different, I am seeing a lot of foot-based armies. DE spliter rifles with splinter cannons are very good at removing them.
Your mileage may vary, but I would bring DE over MEQ to help with Eldar.

toocool61 wrote:
I do take a 20 man unit with a conceal lock, but I use them to shield eldrad and transport him upfield so he can fortune the avatar to the other side of the table. You can also use them to help transport other squads by giving cover saves. Just put them in the middle of the big squad and bubble wrap them in the guardians. However, taking 10 man squads is easier, and they are a lot better than people give them credit for.

I see lots of people do this, give their guardian squad a warlock with conceal, I think to my self what is the point. A 5+ save won't do much if the enemy really want them dead and besides you don't need the 5+ cover if the squad is in cover to begin with (which if they have a heavy weapon, they should be)

Its tough to find cover big enough for 22 models, and yea it is easy enough to kill models with 5++ saves. But it will take a good amount of shooting away from the other elements of my army for them to kill the guardian blob. So I believe the trade off is good because they either waste shooting on them, or they will take 40 shuriken shots to a squad which will generally kill a squad. Eldrad can help boost them and make them better as well with guide, doom, or fortune. Its a viable tactic

I usually use two units of ten Defenders in any Eldar army, or when I'm fielding Eldar as allies to my Blood Angels. They're a decently-priced scoring unit; not as cheap as grots or cultists, but have decent LD, have a move & fire heavy weapon, and are reasonably durable at long range and in cover.

Got to play with my 18+1 Warlock squad today against Ork bikers/Nobz. I had Maugan Ra lead them. Bullet catchers to be sure, but it was a necessary evil.

Turn 1 nothing substantive. Warbikers and Warboss raced up towards them.
Turn 2. They killed three bikers and put 1 wound on Warboss and lost 7 in shooting. Orks then assaulted. Warlock accepted Warboss challenge (and died, but did one wound first) and other Guardians killed, leaving Maugan Ra, Warboss and 3 Warbikers.
Turn 3. Maugan Ra wins challenge, broke remaining Warbikers and swept them.

Essentially, they took on 9 Warbikers and a Warboss on bike. My opponent had to go for them as they were holding one of the three objectives. We both lost a troop choice, but I still had Jetbikes and Dire Avengers(in a Wave Serpent) ready for the counter attack. Game was one with 1 objective, linebreaker and slay the warlord.



Again, not an uber unit, but their sheer numbers allowed me to absorb hits and Maugan Ra kept them fearless allowing me to weather the storm and win the combat. Typically, this unit does go away, but it takes substantial shooting/assault to do so. In this case, I lost a static unit to his fast unit (he had Wazdakka making them scoring) while I still had two fast scoring units (Jetbikes and DA in a Wave Serpent).

Still not an uber unit, but definitely fulfilled their purpose and helped win me the game.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
If you want decent scoring units then why would you ally with Dark Eldar?

They are battle bro's so you can use Eldrad's diviniation powers on him

Powerguy wrote:
Their troops are just as bad as ours

For 1 more point they get a better BS, a 24" ranged rapid fire weapon, poisoned ranged weapons, the ability to take special weapons, cheap heavy weapons, and the ability to ignore night fighting.
Their much better than guardians.

Powerguy wrote:
they really don't bring a hell of a lot to the table that Eldar can use

Massive poisoned shots.
While your meta may be different, I am seeing a lot of foot-based armies. DE spliter rifles with splinter cannons are very good at removing them.
Your mileage may vary, but I would bring DE over MEQ to help with Eldar.

The main thing for me is that Dark Eldar Warriors are still T3 5+, and can't make use of a Fearless bubble from the Avatar or bring their own cover. Yes they have better damage output from their standard guys, but their heavy weapons can't move and fire which largely negates the advantage of getting a special. Overall yes they are probably marginally better, but they still aren't reliable scoring units.

Mass poison is nice, particularly with the increased number of infantry in 6th, but Eldar already excel in bringing massed S6 shooting which deals with infantry just fine and now deals with light vehicles more reliably. For me the biggest hole in the Eldar list is their lack of decent scoring units, and Dark Eldar really don't bring much to the table in that regard.

They cost 8 points, and have a bolter permanently stuck on rapid fire. Essentially gaunts with an extra armor save but cost a whole lot more and get lousy upgrades. Toughness 3 and a +5 save make them disappear when anything takes a shot at them, they fold instantly in assault and their shooting is awful. Take bikes.