Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I am working to finish up a 2000 pt Tyranid Army, and once that is done, I am going to move onto an army that is far easier to paint. I have long considered Space Marines to be taboo, but I can't help but be inspired by some of the fluff I have read, so I have decided to work on creating a force of Marines. Now, I have the problem of having to choose from amongst all the Space Marine codexes, and most importantly, the ungodly amount of stuff in the Space Marine codex itself. I have been running my Tyranids as nearly-all assualt army, with minor shooting elements within it, and I am looking to finally get myself dirty in the shooting phase. I suppose before I get too far ahead, I should probably lay down some guidelines on my interests, just to help focus the search for my new army.

Guidelines:

1. Theme - I like fluff, and units and tactics that revolve around it. I generally do not care about effectiveness, even if it is a subpar unit.
2. Multiple Small Units - I do not want people to have to deal with the agony of me moving 200+ models a turn. I would rather have many small units that serve more than 1 purpose, so that they can handle whatever I need to throw at them, and it doesn't hurt if the unit gets wiped out.
3. No Tanks - As wonderful as they are, I would perfer running as few tanks as possible. Preferably none, but I am always willing to listen to reason.
4. Not a Straight up Gunline - I have seen IG and the Tau, and I do not want an army that will get ripped apart as quickly as they do. Some assualt capabilities are good, but as long as they are not dedicated, I am fine.
5. Bang for Buck - When it comes to weapons, I perfer reliability, even if it is more expensive. I don't like the idea of a 1 trick pony. Math is always a good thing.
6. No Plasma - I am sorry, but I have seen far too many of my friends' marines die to an exploding plasma gun. However, I can live with it, provided it's something minor, and when it blows, I am not going to lose something valuable.
7. Versatility - Kind of leads back to the multiple small unit thing. If I can combine an anti-tank and anti-infantry in the same unit, that is fine with me.
8. Anti-Air - Kind of important for me, but not a dealbreaker. There is the Aegis Defense Line for a reason.
9. Aircraft - Wait, you have aircraft? I generally do not care for aircraft, kind of like I hate tanks, but if you can make a reasonable suggestion backed up with facts, I am more than willing to change my ways.

Well, there you have it. If you guys can come up with a codex that seems to give me most, if not all of that, I would be most grateful. Also, further tips on units and characters I should look into, and ways to outfit them, along with general tactics are appreciated.

Pick Space Wolves.

You can run an all infantry army and still have a strong list.

Rune Priests, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs. Easy peasy. Throw in some other things for more flavour, and there you have it.

Play a Deathwing army once the new book drops.

Id have to go spacewolves as well.

Well, for starters then, tell me about Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Rune Priests. What are their max numbers, and what can I really outfit them with? Are they just 10 man Tactical Squads?

 Eldarain wrote:
Play a Deathwing army once the new book drops.

+1

Or maybe even ravenwing!

Does no tanks include no Dreads?

I do not consider a Dreadnought to be a tank, no.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Guidelines:

1. Theme - I like fluff, and units and tactics that revolve around it. I generally do not care about effectiveness, even if it is a subpar unit.
2. Multiple Small Units - I do not want people to have to deal with the agony of me moving 200+ models a turn. I would rather have many small units that serve more than 1 purpose, so that they can handle whatever I need to throw at them, and it doesn't hurt if the unit gets wiped out.
3. No Tanks - As wonderful as they are, I would perfer running as few tanks as possible. Preferably none, but I am always willing to listen to reason.
4. Not a Straight up Gunline - I have seen IG and the Tau, and I do not want an army that will get ripped apart as quickly as they do. Some assualt capabilities are good, but as long as they are not dedicated, I am fine.
5. Bang for Buck - When it comes to weapons, I perfer reliability, even if it is more expensive. I don't like the idea of a 1 trick pony. Math is always a good thing.
6. No Plasma - I am sorry, but I have seen far too many of my friends' marines die to an exploding plasma gun. However, I can live with it, provided it's something minor, and when it blows, I am not going to lose something valuable.
7. Versatility - Kind of leads back to the multiple small unit thing. If I can combine an anti-tank and anti-infantry in the same unit, that is fine with me.
8. Anti-Air - Kind of important for me, but not a dealbreaker. There is the Aegis Defense Line for a reason.
9. Aircraft - Wait, you have aircraft? I generally do not care for aircraft, kind of like I hate tanks, but if you can make a reasonable suggestion backed up with facts, I am more than willing to change my ways.

Well, there you have it. If you guys can come up with a codex that seems to give me most, if not all of that, I would be most grateful. Also, further tips on units and characters I should look into, and ways to outfit them, along with general tactics are appreciated.

It sounds like Ravenwing and Deathwing might be a good option for this, but if I were you I would wait for the new Dark Angels book in order to be sure that you're getting an army that you like.

Isn't the Raven Wing the mech side, while Death Wing is the Terminator spam? I have a buddy that does Raven Wing, and I don't think spamming terminators with stormshields and thunderhammers will help me get out of an assualt army.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Isn't the Raven Wing the mech side, while Death Wing is the Terminator spam? I have a buddy that does Raven Wing, and I don't think spamming terminators with stormshields and thunderhammers will help me get out of an assualt army.

The Ravenwing is bikers and air support, while the Deathwing is Terminators. Dark Angels are about to get a new Codex that is rumored to greatly increase the options available for both!

Ravenwing are Bikes and Land Speeders. DA are not really the biggest fans of metal boxes.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Well, for starters then, tell me about Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Rune Priests. What are their max numbers, and what can I really outfit them with? Are they just 10 man Tactical Squads?

Grey Hunters and Tactical Marines both fit their names aptly.

Tactical Marines are a swiss army knife... they push and pull, they shoot the assaulty and assault the shooty... they advance when they've got the enemy on its heels, and they fall back when overwhelmed. They're a water solution who can fill many roles... not great at any one specific job but can do so much stuff that they can bolster whatever part of your army is lacking.

Grey Hunters on the other hand are NOT Tactical Marines. They are meant to get up close and personal with the enemy, deliver a punch, and then take one in return. This is fleshed out in having a boltgun, bolt pistol, AND close combat weapon, as well as the Counter-Attack rule... as opposed to Tactical Marines who only have boltgun, bolt pistol, combat tactics and combat squads. Tactical Marines have 1 heavy weapon and 1 special weapon... Grey Hunters have 1 special weapon, two if you have a full 10 man squad (they can't take a heavy weapon). If you want to take a reduced size squad you can instead take a wolf guard pack leader to act as the sergeant for the Grey Hunters pack.

What this basically translates to is you can get within 12" of a target, unleash a torrent of rapid fire, then if the enemy responds by charging you, you pass a leadership check and end up with 3A per model while receiving the charge, as opposed to tactical marines who will only have 1A while receiving a charge and will be looking to turn tail and run after the combat ends (assuming they lose by at least 1). Tactical Marines want to control the ebb and flow of battle. Grey Hunters want to win outright.

Grey Hunters are very competitively priced to the point where some people feel its unfair. Don't be fooled by this... while Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop in the game, they absolutely need support to reach their full potential. That's where Long Fangs come in. They're again competitively point costed so as to be a better bargain than typical Marine devastators, and with less fat. Additionally, their pack leaders trade a signum for split fire... allowing your Long Fangs to act as TWO small devastator packs should you feel the need to fire at two targets at once.

Finally, Rune Priests are the only marine option left that can deny enemy psychic powers based on range rather than being on the receiving end of a psychic attack... that makes them more aggressive towards enemy psykers. Further, Rune Priest codex powers are generally much more aggressive than Codex Marine powers, while Codex Marine powers tend to be more balanced in that they can fill a variety of roles.

As a Space Wolf player I don't think you can go wrong. There's a lot of great fluff involved with the Wolves... they take a lot of their inspiration from Nordic mythology. The only thing that the SW really lack in is air / anti-air. We have no flyers, and our only anti-flyer is the Aegis Defense Line. I can't comment on how much that hurts since I haven't actually faced a flyer yet...

If you have more questions I'll be glad to help.

you could take a MotF on a mike, get a few more bike squads to put him in then a crap ton of dreads BAM!

IMHO everything except for vanilla marines is too, well, strange. And space wolves are heretics WHOOPS DID I JUST SAY THAT OUT LOUD! But seriously, if you are like me, then you like a nice, fun, fluffy army. Not too competetive, because that often ruins the narrative of games. At least that's what I understood from your points at the beginning. Any ways, I would make up your own chapter, or go for ones from the vanilla codex. Not ultra smurfs. I went there and I will regret it for the rest of my life. Trust me.
Tactical squads are probably one of the most versatile units in the game. Missile launchers are good (although specialising is not a bad idea). For me there is no better AT weapon you can get for infantry than the good 'ol melta gun.
Assault squads are fun, but the suck. Like they really, really suck. Don't get me wrong, they are really fun, but unless you can figure out some sneaky way to play them, then they are a waste of time.
I have not had to much experience with terminators but what experience I have had has been good. They are next to invincible to anything save the enemy's biggest guns (which of course will be focussed on them since you don't have tanks).
You said you don't want tanks, but honestly, I think you should take rhino's. That extra bit of speed can really help. And that little bit of extra survivability can really help.
Not a big fan of scouts, although they can be really good for infiltrating onto objectives, and holding the line until the big boys arrive. The heavy bolters are very usefull, especially with that poisoned blast ability.
Have no experience with devastators, same with veterans. Bikes likewise, but they have always seemed fun, as well as an expensive (money wise), option.
I think that covers most infantry. Really its about playing around with some units, and finding a balance between an army that is good, but is also fun to play. One thing that it seems no one remembers any more is that the guy you are playing against is here to have fun to. So smashing him to death with bull gak broken rules and cheese is not cool, especially when there is generally so much of it going around in terms of SM and there various chapters.
This army could be very fun to make fluff for, due to your apparent distaste for vehicles and if you want I could PM you some fluff ideas
Any ways, have fun playing SM! And remember that, as with tactics, this is all opinion, and I am sure that some of mine will be torn to shreds. Really these are just ideas to keep in mind for playing to win, but not to be an donkey-cave. Some of my best games have actually be ones I have lost

ok so for a good 2k points heres my suggestion

number 1 crimson fists pedro cantor list get a space marine flyer with a scout squad one devistator squad two thunderfire cannons invisibiblity clocks on the snipers. a drop pod.

number 2 thousands sons

3 some ordo grey hunter assasins army

Okay I've played BA...a lot, so I know meq tactics well.

Grey hunters are likely the best troops in the game, and yes, they are borderline unfair. Okay, maybe more than borderline. If you like the fluff on them (I don't) go those guys.

Given your list of criteria, the space wolves are probably the best fit actually. They can field fearsome lists with no tanks at all, although some troop transports are likely useful.

Competitively grey knights are generally considered one of the best. Personally I prefer dark angels as they have some really nice fluff, can be highly shooty and the dark vengance box set is a great way to start where you save money on the marines alone!

Grey Knights can shoot? I thought they were an entire chapter that decided to swing insane force weapons while cutting up daemons.

I'd go vanilla marines. You can do a lot of different things with them. Basic tactical squads are never bad and combat squads pretty much ensure that you do not need to take a huge amount of troop choices when you can just split 10 man squads into 5 man squads. But do not forget scouts as they work well in 5 man shooty squads (Trust me. I run a full scout list often )

About tanks I must say that I do not like to field them either but my marines have one. The predator tank. It can be outfitted with quite versatile options and it is a decent heavy support choice. I recommend one of those as the only tank in your force if you really don't want to field much tanks. There is naturally the dreadnought option if there is no other elite units you wish to field (unless you have a master of the forge which allows dreads as heavy support). Thunderfire cannon is a decent choice also.

Vanilla marines have only one flyer and even though I own one I have not yet used it in a game but I've seen it used and it wasn't too bad actually. You can do without them though.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that dreads in drop pods can be evil if done right and dreads are fun and look good.

I have been leaning on either space wolves or regular space marines, with the emphasis being on the regular marines. Space wolves just seem too assualty, and I don't want to backslide. The one thing really, that puts me off tanks, is that I have noticed that the players near me that run marines with tanks have been having disturbing experiences with tanks blowing up, and taking most, if not all, of their occupants with them. I have been curious just how effective a dreadnought can be. Perhaps a long range, anti-horde, anti-tank platform?

Marines rarely die in tank explosions. Even further, weapons typically shot at AV 11 rarely cause them to explode.

There will be some games with even vanilla marines you will be assaulting a lot. It is not really backsliding. At first, the marines seem like a noob army, but then you realize what an uphill battle low model count really is. One turn of cold armor saves kills you. I am far more careful moving my BA around than I am with my friend's IG.

What fluff do you like? All of the current books are viable for competitive/semi competitive play.

You can totally do a competitive foot list, with SW or with C:SMs, but if you like C:SMs then you have to decide if you want to go combat or chapter tactics.

Dreadnoughts can be great, the dual TL auto cannon variant will pump out 3-4 S7 hits, if you field 2 you can use them as decent anti-air. If you're local meta has a lot of flyers you will probably want to take an ADL, but SMs have great options to man them.

What do you think about drop pods?

Really, I like a lot of the fluff. I just get wrapped around theme. For instance, something like the Vulcan and flamethrower spam lists. It would make no sense to me to revolve around pyromaniac theme, and then suddenly have a disproportionate amount of autocannons, and few flamethrower units. As for drop pods, I am iffy on them. I used spore pods to drop close combat troops and equip an occasional heavy weapon for a mixed surprise for my carnifexes. I do know however, that they are iffy cover, considering how easily they can be popped with a jaws of the world wolf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Devastator Squads and Terminators... can they be outfitted for anti armor, anti horde, and anti-air?

WHY THE SONS OF RUSS, MIGHTY WARRIORS OF FENRIS OF COURSE!!!

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Really, I like a lot of the fluff. I just get wrapped around theme. For instance, something like the Vulcan and flamethrower spam lists. It would make no sense to me to revolve around pyromaniac theme, and then suddenly have a disproportionate amount of autocannons, and few flamethrower units. As for drop pods, I am iffy on them. I used spore pods to drop close combat troops and equip an occasional heavy weapon for a mixed surprise for my carnifexes. I do know however, that they are iffy cover, considering how easily they can be popped with a jaws of the world wolf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Devastator Squads and Terminators... can they be outfitted for anti armor, anti horde, and anti-air?

Well devastators with missile launchers can do anti-armor, anti-horde and propably anti-air.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Really, I like a lot of the fluff. I just get wrapped around theme. For instance, something like the Vulcan and flamethrower spam lists. It would make no sense to me to revolve around pyromaniac theme, and then suddenly have a disproportionate amount of autocannons, and few flamethrower units. As for drop pods, I am iffy on them. I used spore pods to drop close combat troops and equip an occasional heavy weapon for a mixed surprise for my carnifexes. I do know however, that they are iffy cover, considering how easily they can be popped with a jaws of the world wolf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Devastator Squads and Terminators... can they be outfitted for anti armor, anti horde, and anti-air?

Devs and terminators can do Anti-armour, and anti horde, but the only thing that Space marines have for anti-air is the storm talon.

You spelled out DA multiwing. Do it and you wont be disappointed.

So you like Vulkan? and you want an infantry list?

Well Stern guard are cool in a Drop pod and While you say you do not like one shot Trick I would Advise tanking Combi-Meltas Because of Vulcan's ability to make flamers and Melta weapons twin-linked and you get special Ammunition for them also putting them in a pod is a very reliable way of getting of getting into a good shooting range for you Meltas to work.

Terminators seem to be a good friend in the infantry field as well If you do not like tanks, and With Vulcans ability you can equip a heavy flamer and deepstrike that squad next to that ADL and watch those poor unfortunate souls behind the line flail around and and BURN!!!

any tactical marines make into 10 man squads then put them into a pod... I know you say You like small units but this is where the fun is because you can combat squad which means your squads can become smaller 5-man squads as soon as they arrive.

I know you said your iffy on Drop pods but they are different from Those Bio-pods that nids have simply because of the Internal Guidance system they have.

Hope this helps

Vulkan is a pretty good model, and worth it if your melta and flamers roll really low. He makes Hammernators a little bit better by having them master crafted. I know you don't like tanks, but a land raider full of 8 assault terminators will put the fear of the emperor into any opponent, and draw fire from most of your other units.