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With the current 6th edition rules and just the standard c'tan shard rules are they ever worth taking in a competitive list? If so with what powers? With what kind of list? To do what?

The short answer is no.

Pros
- Eternal Warrior
- MC with various shooting/melee/Area Effect powers that aren't physic powers and thus can't be denied
- Grand Illusion (Redeploy D3 units before the start of the game) can be used to good effect
- ++4 Invul Save
- Elite choice
- BS5 WS5 and important for Crons I4
- Fearless
- T7, immune to Str 3
- Ignores Dangerous/Difficult terrain

Cons
- 185 Base cost plus mandatory 2 powers (Cheapest Ct'an is 210 & most expensive is 280)
- Not an IC, can't join units
- +4 Amour Save
- Slow, can't DS, board transports
- Poison weapons ignore high T
- Large Model, hard to get out of LOS


The Cost and terrible Armour save are the biggest issue for me when thinking about fielding a C'tan Shard, It might the nature of the Necron codex that certain units, Wraiths, Annihilation Bares, Night Scythes, are under coasted and are far superior in survivability and power that many units look really bad in comparison.

The ctan works well with a mechanized nercon list, but otherwise is tricky to use.

My Necron friend uses them to good effect as my lasguns can't wound him, although that was in a small game so I couldn't field many heavy weapons but either way against low strength he should work.

The main failing of the C'tan shard, is it's poor save. If had perhaps a regular 3+ save to go with it's 4++, then it would be much closer into the realm of usable.

If you want bargain MCs then consider the Canoptek Spyders. They are fantastic deal for their cost.

Ok thanks, perhaps I will look into converting some wraiths or spyders then

 Sasori wrote:
The main failing of the C'tan shard, is it's poor save. If had perhaps a regular 3+ save to go with it's 4++, then it would be much closer into the realm of usable.

If you want bargain MCs then consider the Canoptek Spyders. They are fantastic deal for their cost.

Yeah, I can't see their reasoning for making a spyder cost 50 points with cheaper AND more useful upgrades/options and innate ablities. Plus, you can get a really useful 3 Spyder SQUAD for 170 points (gloom prisim, f. claws) that can poop out Scarabs, repair your A. Barges and Arks, provide psy defense for your Warrior blob (if you are that kind of player) and then counter assault any plucky MEQ unit that thinks they are going to "AHHAH! NEC0ns ARE soOOO FaIL IN CUMBAT!!!1!!1111!" and charge your guys.

I love my Spyders.

 Brymm wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
The main failing of the C'tan shard, is it's poor save. If had perhaps a regular 3+ save to go with it's 4++, then it would be much closer into the realm of usable.

If you want bargain MCs then consider the Canoptek Spyders. They are fantastic deal for their cost.

Yeah, I can't see their reasoning for making a spyder cost 50 points with cheaper AND more useful upgrades/options and innate ablities. Plus, you can get a really useful 3 Spyder SQUAD for 170 points (gloom prisim, f. claws) that can poop out Scarabs, repair your A. Barges and Arks, provide psy defense for your Warrior blob (if you are that kind of player) and then counter assault any plucky MEQ unit that thinks they are going to "AHHAH! NEC0ns ARE soOOO FaIL IN CUMBAT!!!1!!1111!" and charge your guys.

I love my Spyders.

There are several decent options to fill the HS slots, like ABarges, Doom Scythes, and also Spiders. Filling the Elite slots is not so critical. So the C'tan Shards are not in drect competition with the Spiders.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Brymm wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
The main failing of the C'tan shard, is it's poor save. If had perhaps a regular 3+ save to go with it's 4++, then it would be much closer into the realm of usable.

If you want bargain MCs then consider the Canoptek Spyders. They are fantastic deal for their cost.

Yeah, I can't see their reasoning for making a spyder cost 50 points with cheaper AND more useful upgrades/options and innate ablities. Plus, you can get a really useful 3 Spyder SQUAD for 170 points (gloom prisim, f. claws) that can poop out Scarabs, repair your A. Barges and Arks, provide psy defense for your Warrior blob (if you are that kind of player) and then counter assault any plucky MEQ unit that thinks they are going to "AHHAH! NEC0ns ARE soOOO FaIL IN CUMBAT!!!1!!1111!" and charge your guys.

I love my Spyders.

There are several decent options to fill the HS slots, like ABarges, Doom Scythes, and also Spiders. Filling the Elite slots is not so critical. So the C'tan Shards are not in drect competition with the Spiders.

I personally like everything in the Heavy support slot, except Monoliths. I even find my Doomsday Arks are pretty useful now a days.

Depending on the point level people play at though, crowding in a certain FOC slot may not even be an issue.

Can doomsday arks indirect fire?

They lack the barrage special rule, so no, not as far as I can tell.

I even like monoliths. So every heavy slot is good in my opinion. And despite what others have said here, the C'tan is usable. It is by no means a top tier choice. But they aren't bad either. I have used mine to devastating effect. And there is also the worldscape lists which can buy necrons an entire extra turn of shooting.

Outside of worldscape though I don't like any of their abilities. Everything was pretty average.

The C'tan are usable against certain armies, I used a tailored list with two C'tan to take out a BA league opponent who always fielded Mephiston and the Sanguinor. If you use them in concert with Orikan to take advantage of the WIthering Worldscape cheese it can also be effective. But their vulnerability to poison and the relatively low inv. save at 4+ leaves them more vulnerable than they used to be in 3rd edition when the C'tan were T8., and practically unplayable against several armies, paticularly the Dark Eldar. A few small tweaks and GW could have made C'tan totally playable but as with most of the carry over units from the 3rd edition codex, GW nerfed them in favor of new models/units.

I am not sure why people think a 4+ invuln on a monstrous creature is so bad. The stuff that is going to be used to fire at said monstrous creature is going to be ap3 or better anyways. A KoS is 4+ and its also a toughness value lower, but people don't seem to think they are bad. And they are also about the same price (more base, but usually after upgrades slightly cheaper)

Been revisiting the Shards recently playing around with a 2 or 3 shard list. Things that I think work well with them:

Monoliths for greater mobility and LOS coverage.

Scarabs to Tar Pit and slow things down for the Shards to get into contact with.

Nemesor, primarily for another Stealth.

Imo/Solar Pulses for the Night Fighting protection.

If you can steadily get them Stealth, or even better Stealth+Shrouding, they won't take nearly as much heat the first couple rounds as they hover their way up the field. My biggest issue with list building is to get everything I really want I have to push it to 2500. Fun army though. Most people don't know what to think when facing 3 Shards at once, Stealthed and Shrouded, pushing their way into their lines.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
I am not sure why people think a 4+ invuln on a monstrous creature is so bad. The stuff that is going to be used to fire at said monstrous creature is going to be ap3 or better anyways. A KoS is 4+ and its also a toughness value lower, but people don't seem to think they are bad. And they are also about the same price (more base, but usually after upgrades slightly cheaper)

Because it is a 50% save, no matter what. Compared to a unit like wraiths(3++) that can have a 2+ save character attached their survivability is far greater. If Dark Eldar hit and wound the C'tan just 10 times(which happens often) odds are he's dead. Against wraiths maybe 3wounds might go through or less if you position a D. lord in the right way. Look at the survivability of a guardsman with a 4+ save versus a Space marine with a 3+ save there is a major difference. C'tan were far superior when they were T8 as small arms fire (excluding poison) could not wound them at all or you could get them into CC with S4 models or less, and the C'tan could kill freely with no chance of being harmed. Was it powerful, yeah but for their cost it was fair. Now they cost a bit less but are far more vulnerable. If just one C'tan power would give them a speed boost of some kind they would be much better.

Yeah for their cost of 350 points, They lost 1 toughness value and their price is still 100 points cheaper after upgrades. Again the keeper of secrets is toughness 6 and has 4 wounds is drastically easier to kill but people think they are a good unit.

The issue isn't that C'tan are bad. The unit itself is a good well balanced unit. It is that the entire necron codex is also so good it is hard to justify spending points on good when you can have great.

Poison is going to kill monstrous creatures, thats what it does. But if your C'tan is dieing to str 4 something wonky is going on and it has nothing to do with the c'tans viability on the table.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Yeah for their cost of 350 points, They lost 1 toughness value and their price is still 100 points cheaper after upgrades. Again the keeper of secrets is toughness 6 and has 4 wounds is drastically easier to kill but people think they are a good unit.

The issue isn't that C'tan are bad. The unit itself is a good well balanced unit. It is that the entire necron codex is also so good it is hard to justify spending points on good when you can have great.

Poison is going to kill monstrous creatures, thats what it does. But if your C'tan is dieing to str 4 something wonky is going on and it has nothing to do with the c'tans viability on the table.

Yeah it has to do with Torrent of fire. C'tan are slow and get shot at allot, odds are after just ten armor saves you have 1 dead C'Tan, that isn't much. I've had Lords plow through 19 saves using the benefits of LOS and being able to actually attach to a squad, they become infinitely more viable than a C'Tan is. There is a reason that GW had to invent Tyrant guard to defend the (at the time) only available HQ to Tyranids and that was how easy slow MC can be to kill, nothing has changed and the C'tan along with Wraith Lords as well. They are big easy to hit targets with no access to equpment that improves their speed at all. Flying MC are so much better even before flight was introduced to the game just because that extra 6" of movement makes a MC so much more useful. KoS are and were faster than the C'Tan in that they have Fleet. In 5th that meant they could move 6+D6+6 in the movement, shooting, and assault phases respectfully. That is 1 inch more than a Ctan at least, and 6 more at most not to mention the Daemons ability to deep strike which a C'tan can never do. If C'tan could deep strike, which would make sense, they again would be a far better unit. In 6th edition a C'tan vs. a KoS is still slower though Fleet has been nerfed a bit but the ability to reroll one or all of a charge is much better or when running in the shooting phase, the KoS still has the advantage and gets to deep strike. However, I am still seeing more daemon players running Fateweaver than anything else and that is a flying MC with a 3++ rerollable Inv. save. Give me the speed, the improved save, or a rerollable save on my C'tan and I would probably bring at least one to each battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:

Cons
- 185 Base cost plus mandatory 2 powers (Cheapest Ct'an is 210 & most expensive is 280)

205 points with Entropic Touch and Lord of Fire. Just for GP.

If your opponent is torrent of firing into a Ctan with str 4 weapons you just won the game. It takes 10 bolter shots to put a wound on a Ctan. So for every 20 shots we fail 1 wound. So needing the "10 armor saves" that takes 100 bolter shots to kill a ctan. Again, if your C'tan is dieing to str 4 you should either be thanking your opponent for giving you the game or cursing the dice gods. Neither of which make the ctan a bad unit. There are definitely flaws with the C'tan now. But dieing to str 4 is not one of them.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
If your opponent is torrent of firing into a Ctan with str 4 weapons you just won the game. It takes 10 bolter shots to put a wound on a Ctan. So for every 20 shots we fail 1 wound. So needing the "10 armor saves" that takes 100 bolter shots to kill a ctan. Again, if your C'tan is dieing to str 4 you should either be thanking your opponent for giving you the game or cursing the dice gods. Neither of which make the ctan a bad unit. There are definitely flaws with the C'tan now. But dieing to str 4 is not one of them.

Try that math against poison weapons or being swarmed with horde units like Orks. Bolters aren't the only torrent of fire weapons available in the game. Though the few sots from weapons like bolters that do put that one wound on a C'tan are then added to the melta, plasma, power fist, las cannon, etc. Wounds and it puts them down quick. Trust me I did everything I could to make them viable, I just loved the idea of using three. But actual game play, has proven them to be way over costed because they die to easily.

Usable? sure, they're in your current codex, right?

NecronLord3 your argument reads like someone who can't stand the fact that one unit in your crazy codex is actually on-par with the rest of 40k.

Every argument you put forward applies to MC, not just C'Tan, yet nobody else is implying that MC are less than useless bolter fodder.

I want to try one with Gaze of Death and Swarm of Spirit Dust. That is 255 points and gives you a Monstrous Creature with T7, 4W, a 4++ and Stealth. He also has Assault and Defensive grenades. Assault grenades are nice so then you dont lose your lovely I4 when charging through cover. He has 5 attacks on the charge at WS5 and S7. Now Gaze of Death is 50 points, but it isnt to hard to make its points back. You charge and resolve combat. After quote "all other blows in the C'tans combat have been struck, centre a large blast marker on the Shard." Then all other models (not the Shard) under the marker, includes friendlies, takes a S3 hit with no armour saxes allowed. If you cause one or more unsaved wounds then the Shard regains a wound previously lost. That happens after every combat. As well as this, if the Shard is killed, all models within D6" take a S4 AP1 hit. That is a lot of hurt. Yes Dark Eldar will murder him, but most other armies will have to dedicate their anti-tank against him, thus leaving your vehicles alone, or not target the Shard allowing him to get close and murder things. He is also a Character, he can charge a squad of say.... Space Marines, or CSM and challenge Sarge/Aspiring Champion. He horribly murders the poor guy in combat, probably with out taking a wound and then Gaze of Death kicks in. If the Sarge refuses then the rest of the squad can try to fight, but even Krak Grenades need 5's to wound.

Not usable.

FRFSRF vs. C'tan. Saw that, lol'd.

Sure they are usable, not the most competitive option but certainly viable as a CC beast.

Take 3 spyders. They are much more point-effective than this huge C'tan model.

MarsNZ wrote:
NecronLord3 your argument reads like someone who can't stand the fact that one unit in your crazy codex is actually on-par with the rest of 40k.

Every argument you put forward applies to MC, not just C'Tan, yet nobody else is implying that MC are less than useless bolter fodder.

Bull gak. There are plenty of nasty and competitive MC in the game. The majority of which have far reaching weapons or effects, and/or are far more mobile than a C'Tan. The C'tan are simply to slow to be competitive and their save is terrible by comparison to many other MC.

BlackSanguinor wrote:
I want to try one with Gaze of Death and Swarm of Spirit Dust. That is 255 points and gives you a Monstrous Creature with T7, 4W, a 4++ and Stealth. He also has Assault and Defensive grenades. Assault grenades are nice so then you dont lose your lovely I4 when charging through cover. He has 5 attacks on the charge at WS5 and S7. Now Gaze of Death is 50 points, but it isnt to hard to make its points back. You charge and resolve combat. After quote "all other blows in the C'tans combat have been struck, centre a large blast marker on the Shard." Then all other models (not the Shard) under the marker, includes friendlies, takes a S3 hit with no armour saxes allowed. If you cause one or more unsaved wounds then the Shard regains a wound previously lost. That happens after every combat. As well as this, if the Shard is killed, all models within D6" take a S4 AP1 hit. That is a lot of hurt. Yes Dark Eldar will murder him, but most other armies will have to dedicate their anti-tank against him, thus leaving your vehicles alone, or not target the Shard allowing him to get close and murder things. He is also a Character, he can charge a squad of say.... Space Marines, or CSM and challenge Sarge/Aspiring Champion. He horribly murders the poor guy in combat, probably with out taking a wound and then Gaze of Death kicks in. If the Sarge refuses then the rest of the squad can try to fight, but even Krak Grenades need 5's to wound.

I tried using that exact loudout against 'nids, it wasn't that it was bad it just wasn't worth the points compared to the other things I could take for the same points however it was about to kill a hive tryrant before the game ended but it simply wasn't mobile enough to get somewhere useful. Still, it was hilarious to see my friend "charge it for fun" with his hive tyrant and then get pummeled by a weird, naked, floating gold guy

Bull gak. There are plenty of nasty and competitive MC in the game. The majority of which have far reaching weapons or effects, and/or are far more mobile than a C'Tan. The C'tan are simply to slow to be competitive and their save is terrible by comparison to many other MC.

That's a bit debatable. The C'Tan has a superior invulnerable save to most MC's, and can walk through walls, so in some respects is more manuvarable then most non flying MCs. Generally speaking he's probably the best CC MC in the game (largely due to the superior Invulnerable save). Now, of course, he has to get there first.