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BlaxicanX wrote:
Spartans are faster than marines by feats. John managed to run approx 60 miles per hour, with a torn achilles heel. That's faster running speed than anything we've actually seen from an Astarte.

Reflexes, same thing. Spartans are clocked in at roughly 20 ms reaction times, and see the rest of the world as moving in slow motion- even bullets. Astarte are faster than regular humans by a mile, but by actual feats there isn't much that supports the notion they could touch a spartan.

I think Marines are a lot stronger, as a Spartan can only lift about 2500 pounds (though, in armor, Spartans can crush elites' skulls with a single punch and stop gravity hammer swings with one hand, which is impressive considering a gravity hammer swing can send a warthog sailing through the air), and more durable outside of armor, thus in a brawl he would probably come out on top.

And in Know No Fear, Sergeant Aeonid Thiel managed to cut Sorot Tchure's throat in a microsecond of time. Earlier in the book, Captain Honorius Luciel is able to perceive and process the information, even forming a strategy should he be led into combat, in a nanosecond.

In The First Heretic, Argel Tal is able to avoid what can only be described as a weaponise Tesla Coil, in mid-air, using his jump pack. He is also able to jump in front of a salvo of bolter rounds fired by a Custodian and block them all with his swords.

Then of course there is Prospero Burns, where Bjorn is running faster than the airship he rode in on, as he decimates an army that could have conquered a nation (Granted, they were using norse era weaponry so lol). In the story, an augmented human, Kasper Hauser, has enhanced speed, reaction-time, and perceptions. Yet, he could not perceive the movements of the Rune Priest and Wulfen that were fighting eachother. I could bring up Lucius's casual bullet-timing in combat, but Lucius is probably very exceptional for a Marine in quickness.

Marines can't be counted out entirely in the speed department, they have quite a few feats of their own.

In strength, unarmoured there is no contest IMO, the Marine wins, and is more durable regardless. They also have the advantage of the superior biology that allows them to survive gak the Spartan could not dream of. Also acid spit, lol.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Provide the quote and the page number.

"Sorot Tchure hears the noise his master makes. He is focused on his combat with the Ultramarines raiders, but he cannot help but turn his eyes for a second. Less than a second. A microsecond.
Thiel sees his opening. His practical. It is infinitesimal, a tiny chink in the Word Bearer?s guard. It lasts a microsecond, and it will not be repeated.
He puts his sword through it.
The longsword shears the right side of Tchure?s helm away. Cheek, ear and part of the skull separate with it. Tchure stumbles, bewildered by the pain, the shock, the disorientation"
- Know No Fear, page 392

Provide the quote and the page number.

"The Word Bearer is almost unrecognisable. For a nanosecond, the figure registers to Luciel as an unknown, a threat.
Transhuman responses are already there, unbidden. Adrenaline spikes to heighten an already formidable reaction time. Muscle remembers. Luciel wears his boltgun, an oiled black pit bull of a weapon, in his thigh holster. He can draw, aim and fire in less than a second. The range is six metres, the target unobstructed. There is no chance of
missing. Maximus plate, frontally augmented, might stop a mass-reactive shell, so Luciel will fire two and aim for the visor slits. The airgate skin-sleeve is self-repairing, and will survive las-fire damage, but a bolter shot will shred it open, so Luciel also braces for the explosive decompression of a ricochet or a miss-hit. At a simple, subconscious neural urge, boot-sole electromagnets charge to clamp onto the deck plates.
Luciel thinks theoretical, but of course there is no theoretical. There is no tactical precedent for a Space Marine to fight a Space Marine. The idea is nonsense. He thinks practical, and that directs him to the visor slits. He can make a clean kill headshot in less than a second and a half, two rounds for kill insurance, and probably protect the atmospheric integrity of the airgate.
All this, all this decided, unbidden, instinctive, in less than a nanosecond."
- Know No Fear, page 20-21

Provide the quote and the page number.

I can't provide the page number due to being a filthy criminal, but:

"Argel Tal took two running steps; the first sent tremors through
the balcony, the second shattered the railing as he kicked off
from it, leaping into the air. His thrusters roared, breathing
smoke and fire as he fell from sky. The twin blades trailed blurs
of lightning.
‘Aurelian!’ the warriors of Torgal Squad cried out, leaping from
their eyries to slice through the air, following their captain down
on whining engines. ‘Aurelian!’
Argel Tal led the dive, hurling himself to the side as burning
electricity arced up from the artificial below. A second later he
was on the creature, twisting around it to bring his boot crashing
against its glass head. Chips of diamond sprayed away as its
skull snapped back. Both power swords fell a heartbeat later, the
blades hammering into the artificial’s face. More twinkling
shards scattered like hailstones."
- The First Heretic, chapter 7

Provide the quote and the page number.

"VENDATHA WAS NOT a fool. He knew the odds of surviving the
next few moments were slim, and he knew a primarch’s reflexes
were the peak of biological possibility, faster than even his own,
which bordered on the preternatural.
But Lorgar was at ease, his muscles loose. He actually expected
his offer of truce to hold some weight, and that lapse in judgement
was enough for Vendatha to take the chance. He pulled the
haft-trigger, and his spear’s underslung bolter cracked off a
stream of rounds on full-auto.
Argel Tal saw it coming. The swords of red iron smashed the
first three bolts aside, their power fields strong enough to detonate
the shells as they streaked towards the primarch’s heart. The
explosions threw the captain to the ground, his grey armour
scraping along the stone with the shriek of offended ceramite."

The First Heretic, Chapter 15

Per official lore though, Spartans generally top out at being about class 1, aka, able to lift about a ton above their heads. Marines are generally portrayed as stronger, while studio fluff doesn't typically delve into individual Marine feats of strength (And when they do, it's typically insane nonsense like Draigo holding down a Primarch, or tearing a Daemon Prince limb from limb.

 Lynata wrote:


Gotta love Black Library novels.

The whole debate is looking more and more like a contest of "who has the most ridiculous fluff in tie-in fiction"

Indeed, one can't help but love BL novels that are far and away superior to the majority of GW's own work.

Edit:

[6:06:12 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: wat
[6:07:05 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: hahaha
[6:07:08 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: You actually did it
[6:07:10 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: what a nerd
[6:07:35 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: time to disqualify it all with weasely lawyer-esque technicalities and outrageous claims

This is where Blax will try to discredit me with trolling, as you see above.

 Lynata wrote:
Honestly, those quotes make 40k sound as if it was some sort of Dragonball Z in Space.

What a ridiculous comparison. 40k is vastly more powerful than DBZ could hope to be (Though I hear some incredibly gakky movie featuring a bubblegum rabbit is coming out that may change that).

I'm sure it's just a matter of preferences, but I cannot "get" how this kind of storytelling can have that many fans. To me, such reality-bending narration would be a huge minus.
Fortunately, I know that not all Marine stories are that bad, but it sure is a good way to deter me from ever spending money on more, just for the risk of reading more like that stuff.

It's a shame that something as trivial as power level deters you so. While obviously not Faulkner or Hemingway, as far as space operas (Much less licensed space operas, for a gander at how bad it really can get, try reading Star Wars EU) go, they're pretty good reads. Sometimes. There are of course bad BL books, like Gav Thorpe and his emomarines, but that has more to do with aforementioned whiny teenage crap than power level.

And really, the basis for these guys? Greek demigods, maybe some epic heroes in Lord of the Rings, that kind of gak, etc. Hercules could lift the sky, Gandalf leveled the side of a mountain when he struck down the Balrog. These incredible feats of might are par the course for these types of stories.

At least GW has a higher ratio of (short) stories that are epic / cool to read whilst still fitting in with the rest of the world rather than making you feel you're watching an episode of the Hercules TV series.
Take Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon, for example. That was a good read.

I can't recall, not being much of a Blood Angel fan myself. Which iteration/codex was this in?

As far as codex fluff goes, I liked Belial's battle with the Weirdboy on Piscina V (I think?), a lot of the Ork battles in Codex: Orks, and some of the old Index Astartes articles, like Leman Russ vs. Magnus (Even if McNeill's in-depth iteration in A Thousand Sons is superior).


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 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
In that case why the debate? We all know that 40k wins in "I have the most ridiculous OTT fluff in sci-fi history" contest.

Not even.

A single Eternal from Doctor Who could imprison the entire galaxy into the Void and destroy Chaos with a thought.

The Downstreamers from the Manifold series can create machines that can survive a thousand Big Bangs and Crunches each second with no scratch, and in fact survived the recreation of the multiverse, and changed it from a finite, set amount of universes, to a limitless amount.

And many more. As far as SF settings constrained to a single galaxy go, 40k is pretty tough, sure, but it isn't anywhere near top dog in the grand scheme of things.

 Kaldor wrote:
+1. It's just meaningless bolter-porn, filler for when authors struggle to come up with compelling plots and interesting characters.

The irony here being that Aaron Dembski-Bowden, your favorite BL author, is the one who wrote The First Heretic, lol.

Not to even mentioning the other very ironic elephant in the room that I won't mention because I want to play nice.

 Lynata wrote:
Define "powerful" ... are we talking about compelling narratives and the setting, or the abilities of various characters?

I am pretty sure you should know which I meant. And, despite my nostalgia for the series, both, mostly (The manga is better than the anime).

the seriousness of the background

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/2/22/20781_md-Chaos%20Space%20Marines,%20Emperor's%20Children,%20Noise%20Marines.jpg

I know, a bit out of date, but I had to.

I don't see much of a difference between Star Wars' Expanded Universe and the Black Library -

I'm guessing you haven't read much of either?

other than one of them actually having consistency.

I hope you are not trying to imply SW EU is consistent, lol.

Both IPs have good and bad books. I'm certainly not saying that I've never read a good BL book, either! Just that a large number of them seems to be ... well ... a tad too "superhero'ish" to me. I much prefer gritty and realistic rather than some godlike being pulling off incredible stunts to save the world on his own. (there are of course exceptions to this - it all depends on the focus of the setting as a whole)

Which none of my examples had, and frankly, 40k as a setting may be gritty, but it isn't even close to realistic. I mean, look at Harker. He strangles a Tyranid Ravener with his bare hands, a feat on par with the strength of a Marine. He's a normal human.

40k is founded on incredible feats of might and heroism.

For what it's worth, most of the SW EU books I read were about very minor characters such as soldiers and military officers or criminals trying to get by. I've purposefully avoided stuff about the major characters because I know that many authors are compelled to have them do "hero stuff".

Lucky you then. The sheer staggering amount of bs forked out by the EU is... Staggering.

To me, stuff like that always comes across a little like a cheap way to raise interest in the story. A book should not stand or fall chiefly on the abilities of the main character, but on plot and interaction. Likewise, a character's weaknesses are far more interesting and potential-holding features than his strengths. Hence, stories with less important characters (who the author would have a harder time justifying special abilities) consistently came across as requiring more thought and delicacy, if you get my drift. Needless to say, a bad author can still mess this up, just like good authors can work with powerful characters without turning them into Mary-Sues. It's just that there are so few good authors, I guess.

Or it is just a followup to the larger than life feats and heroics that are present in the mythologies the setting has some basis in, lol. And honestly, 40k's feats of might are outright subtle compared to the source material at times.

A character can be personally powerful while still possessing flaws that render them fallible. Magnus the Red is an example, very intelligent and with the power to raze the surface of a planet, knows almost all there is to know of sorcery. But, to borrow Manchu's phrasing, what he didn't know outweighed what he did, and his own arrogance doomed him and his legion.

To demonstrate an example I posted... Argel Tal, despite his prowess, and despite knowing that betraying the Imperium is wrong, and the ugly truth of Chaos, hell, despite growing to resent and loathe Lorgar, his Primarch, is ultimately unable to turn his back on Lorgar, despite not wanting to go through with Lorgar's designs. That is a weakness, he is loyal to a self-destructive extent.

No Codex, it was ... lemme check ... White Dwarf #251, page 86. Just a single page, but one of the best 40k stories I've ever read. A fitting end for a hero - going out with a boom. There, his heroics were sort of "balanced" by the character still dying at the end. I don't mind people pulling off stunts as long as they still come across as vulnerable, y'know? Following the exploits of some sort of invul fighter just doesn't seem all that compelling to me. The harder someone fights, the more they should pay for it. Makes it all more realistic - and thus more intrigueing, as you as the reader will be less likely to be able to guess what happens next. Will the character succeed? Will he fail? If he fails, will he die or survive to try again another day...? Game of Thrones-style.

http://www.myspace.com/aldo_miles/blog/419280458
Here's an online copy of the text. I dunno if it's already what you would call "emo" - to me it's at best "tragic". And tragic is fine. Was an integral part to a lot of the ancient myths you mentioned, too. To me, it has a firm place in 40k due to being a central pillar of what makes "Grimdark".

It is worth mentioning that Honorius, the Ultramarine I mentioned, was ultimately killed by his friend, Sorot Tchure, when he was so dumbstruck by his betrayal that he couldn't react in time to stop Sorot from blowing a hole in his chest with a plasma pistol. That said, Know No Fear did have an annoying problem concerning plot armour, where most Word Bearers besides Sorot Tchure and Kor Phaeron (He beat Roboute Guilliman in a fight) are given the guardsmen treatment: Only really threatening to Ultramarines when outnumbering them.

That was a pretty good read, and no, "emo", which I spoke of, was when Corvus Corax looked up at the sky, and cried a single tear, BECAUSE HE FELT OH SO ALONE IN THE UNIVERSE OH SO SAD WAAAAH!!!

Tragedy is good. The fall of Magnus the Red? Tragic (Horus's also should have been but eh).

Void__Dragon wrote:*shiver*

In the case of the Eternals, to be fair, they are basically the Cthulhus/Chaos Gods of Doctor Who. As for the Downstreamers, I mostly just have second-hand knowledge of them so can't say.

 Kaldor wrote:
[They also have reaction speeds up to three times faster than Marines, who have no upgrades to their reflexes at all.

lol

"Considering the mental and
physical strain of such bewildering manoeuvres, the fact that
few Land Speeders are lost to pilot error can be solely
attributed to the superhuman reactions and stamina of the
Space Marines who crew them."
- Codex: Space Marines, 5e, page 74

Space Marines have an implant that increases their perception/senses, as well as enhances their musculature.

Wanna know what both of those combined equal? Superhuman reaction-time, lol.

 Kaldor wrote:
Really? Look, being able to hear better doesn't mean you can respond to it any quicker. The signal still has to hit the eye, travel to the un-augmented brain via un-augmented nerves, be interpreted by the un-augmented brain, a suitable response formed, that response transmitted by the un-augmented nerves to the relevant augmented muscles where it can be carried out.

This goes for both Spartans and Astartes, except Spartans do it 300% quicker thanks to their particular implants and upgrades. Because their nerves and brain are augmented, unlike the Astartes.

You seem to be under the impression that I haven't invalidated your claims with a quote from a codex.

You must have missed my post near the top of the page.

And frankly, going by EU/book feats, Space Marines are better, in terms of reaction-time.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Honestly man that quote means little. "Super human reflexes" tells us nothing, and no change listed for SM seems to effect reaction time.

Spartans IIRC have a rebuilt nervous system and a computer in the brain.The are the other end of SM, but both are more or less the same thing.

Spartans have no magic to call upon, but otherwise they are more or less even,

It tells us they have enhanced reflexes.

Seriously?

"Such feats require not only a
robust and responsive vehicle - which the Land Speeder
undoubtedly is - but also inhuman nerves and reactions on
the part of the pilot, explaining perhaps why Land Speeders
have for so long remained scarce outside of Space Marine
Chapters, and are chiefly absent in other wings of the
Imperium's military."
- Blood Angels, 5e, page 33


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
On multiple occasions, Space Marines are shown to parry or dodge bullets. They are ridiculously fast. On of the early Horus Heresy novels has a great quote about what makes Astartes so frightening to normal humans; it's not their huge size, strength or brutality, but just how ridiculously fast something that large can move. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Right.

Lucius, Argel Tal, that Rune Priest who I can't remember, etc.

Really, 40k as a setting is the type that even grants superhuman capabilities to particularly badass humans, like Commissar Yarrick, Eisenhorn, or Harker, or whoever. And people doubt the reaction-time of the Space Marines, lol?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yeah as I said, it tells us nothing. As you have said named people in 40k are often over the top super human, even humans. Saying they have "inhuman nerves and reactions on
the part of the pilot" really does say nothing. We would say the same thing about any very skilled person better then the norm at something.

Nothing says they enhance reflexes. We have a massive list of changes and what each and every one does. Reflex enhancement is not among them that I recall.

All right, I'll hold your hand for the moment, and help you comprehend what is written.

In the Blood Angels quote in particular, the reaction-time of the pilots is referred to as inhuman. Now, while you could dismiss this as hyperbole, what follows is important: The direct statement that Land Speeders are scarcely piloted by non-Astartes, and completely absent in other wings of the military. Thus attributing that inhuman reaction-time to Space Marines in general, rather than personal prowess of its pilots.

 Still Standing wrote:
So what you are saying is that they are piloted by non-Space Marines. This says that it is NOT the Marine's enhanced reflexes that allows them to pilot them. The Euro Fighter (current Air Superiority Jet used by some of the larger countries in Europe) requires inhuman reflexes and skills to keep it in the air too. Thus why we have computers to assist.

No, actually it explicitly notes that it is very rare for a human being to pilot one, and completely unheard of in a military sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Uh huh...if you say so man. But then 40k says the same thing about more or less everyone "NO you can't use that cheese grater! Only an Astarte can use it !No mere mortals could never use such a device, only the most holy ( and every expanding in size and might) SM can do that!"

Look we have a full list of every single change done to the SM, and what every single change does. Not a single one alters reaction. As whole all of them along with training may do that, like most highly trained folks but nothing puts them out of the realm of what a normal human could do reaction wise if very skilled and highly trained. They are stronger and tougher but nothing listed boots reflexes.

If you know of the organ that gives them better reflexes please list it. Otherwise its is pure SM hyperbole.

An enhanced musculature would by definition enhance the speed at which your muscles move, and Astartes are noted many times to have eyesight both capable of seeing in low-light environments (Not really relevant in this instance) and preternaturally sharp. Both combined equate to enhanced reaction-time. And no, I am too lazy to look up the names of specific organs.

It's funny, you people are so caught up on the list of Space Marine implants that you're unwilling to so much as glance at their actual capabilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:
The caveat of course being that anything an Astartes can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that, of the two of them, only the Spartan has an enhanced brain and nervous system.

This is a biased and flawed form of logic. If a "normal human" is capable of, saw, dodging an actual laser after it is fired, or splitting a glacier with a punch (I am talking about Karate Kid from DC comics, obviousleh), then should we assume the enhanced Spartans or Marines can do better?

If a Space Marine has the superior feats of reaction-time (And make no mistake he does, you don't want to get into a feat war with me), then he has the superior feats of reaction-time. Period.

Power armour isn't that heavy lol.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
the power armor and space marine would have to weight several tons, the ability to crush humans/gaunts flat by walking into them/rolling on the ground would require a lot of weight. The HH novel when horus is injured and the spess mahrens walk Horus through a croweded launchbay crushing/flattening all the people in the way, and in the 4th ed SM codex when Uriel ventris rolls crushing several hormagaunts beneath his weight. pg.2

A Space Marine, by Deathwatch numbers, is 700 pounds unarmoured. Very heavy for even their own prodigious height. Their armour is 180 kilograms, aka about 400 pounds. So a Space Marine would weight about half a ton, fully armoured.

Numbers for human power armour are even lower. 65 kilograms. 140 pounds.

 TheCaptain wrote:
The burden of proof is, and always is, on the person making the claim.

If I say "I have a rock of unobtanium, believe me." it is my job to prove it, or you are free to say it is not true, by way of lack of evidence.

When someone says "SM have enhanced X" they have to cite their reference, or they can be assumed to have simply made it up.

I've provided no less than six quotes for Space Marine reaction-time. Kaldor is just ignoring it because he has a history of ignoring fluff that disproves his claims (the Taremar vs. Angron debate for example).

 Kaldor wrote:
And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

Seriously, look at this guy's train of logic.

"Any feat of a Space Marine's, no matter how impressive, can be done faster by a Spartan, because Spartans are faster than Marines".

Your circular reasoning can't be hidden by fancy wording my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am going to ignore the fluff and cling to my own faulty interpretation of the texts in spite of all logic.

I decided to fix that for you, you seemed confused, your post is a bit more accurate now.

Oh but, remind me, where is a Spartan's reaction-time stated to be 300 times that of a human being's?

 Still Standing wrote:
Except he has previously showed WHY the Spartan was faster. Nobody has shown why a Marine is faster.

If we go by highest feats, the Marine wins, easily. The microsecond slash is far and away above anything a Spartan has ever done. But numerous other feats, like being too fast for enhanced perceptions and reaction-times to perceive (Prospero Burns), or blocking bullets (The First Heretic), and the like occur fairly often.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No he did not show why he was faster. We have a freaking list of all the changes done to SM and just what they do.(its a large list) Not a single one enhances reflexes. He keeps bring up named and OTT Sm hero and not Joe Average Sm who dies by the dozen to ork hoards. We are not talking Heroes, we are talking Standard Sm vs Standard run of the mill Spartan/

Also I do believe it was brought up a while back the changes to a Spartans nervous system and brain. The SM can out do them in many area's but not this one. Nothing makes the SM faster.

See, I ask because the number I am familiar with is 20 milliseconds for Spartan reaction-time. Which is... 12.5 times faster than average human reaction-time, which is 250 milliseconds. Some humans have been clocked in at less than 150 milliseconds.

Thiel, while heroic, was "only" a Sergeant, and in combat was being driven back and bested by the Word Bearer he was fighting.

Prospero Burns makes it very much explicit that the Space Marines do get enhanced reaction-time and perceptions. Kasper Hauser, just some guy, has them enhanced to superhuman levels when his genes are spliced with that of the Space Wolves'.

there is plenty of evidence for Space Marines having speed above that of normal humans.

I mean really, even for a Space Marine's mass, to accomplish their feats of strength (Pulping a human's head with a punch, shattering ceramite physically, etc), their punches must travel at superhuman velocities, and they don't have to telegraph them nor have a long pause in-between, they can control their strikes' direction and gak.

 Still Standing wrote:
Novels may tell us Marines are fast, but GW never said that.

You know, other than the times their piloting of the Land Speeder is said to be possible only due to their superhuman/inhuman reaction-times.

And BL is just as valid as the codices.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
So you can not point to anything( from the list of things we know grant enhancements) what if anything grants them enhanced reflexes. All you have is a quote with "super human reflexes" in at about bikes, non SM use....... Yeah rock solid proof there skippy, I guess those human are just born with all the enhancements poor little Sm have to spend years getting.

It says they (Land Speeders, not bikes, pay attention) are scarcely used by non-Astartes (Scarcely means very rarely, not often, if you were confused), and never by other arms of the Imperium's military.

We are given nothing to make us believe the very few humans who do pilot them do so with nearly the same competence attributed to a Marine. And there are so many variables that the basis of your dismissal of it is faulty. Were they born with Marine enhancements? Obviously not. They could be augmented cyborgs, or psykers who specialize in divination or technopathy, or mutants, or the few limited humans so fething good they have superhuman abilities by virtue of their own awesomeness (Eisenhorn for example).

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
So you can not show proof other then attack those who disagree with you by being snotty about it.You can not prove it, refuse to show the freaking augmentation that does it( as there is not one) and come off as over defensive jerk when someone points it out.

Until you can point out what gives them the enhancement to Reflexes on the list of augmentations we are done here.

I am literally the only one to provide quotes and citations from books when asked for them, all of which prove superhuman reaction-time for a Space Marine.

I could not care less that the Enhancements list does not stamp enhanced reaction-time explicitly, the fluff is very consistent over this fact: When Space Marine speed and reaction-time is brought up, it is portrayed as above what the average human is capable of. Be it in a codex or in Black Library.

I've beaten you. I've utterly refuted the entirety of your argument, and now you attack my perceived arrogance (I am not arrogant, merely superior) in response, unable to justify your failings.

 Still Standing wrote:
Whirlwind tanks are never used outside of the Astartes, doesn't mean it's impossible for a regular human to drive them. Nothing in your quote says that regular humans drive them any worse than Marines, or really says that humans can't drive them with the appropriate training and equipment (pressure suits to counter the g-forces etc). Basically your quote says they are "really really hard to drive". Unless you think they are faster and more maneuverable than a Lightning interceptor?

lol

"Considering the mental and
physical strain of such bewildering manoeuvres, the fact that
few Land Speeders are lost to pilot error can be solely
attributed to the superhuman reactions and stamina of the
Space Marines who crew them."

" the fact that
few Land Speeders are lost to pilot error can be solely
attributed to the superhuman reactions and stamina of the
Space Marines who crew them."

"few Land Speeders are lost to pilot error can be solely
attributed to the superhuman reactions and stamina"

"solely"

"Such feats require not only a
robust and responsive vehicle - which the Land Speeder
undoubtedly is - but also inhuman nerves and reactions on
the part of the pilot, explaining perhaps why Land Speeders
have for so long remained scarce outside of Space Marine
Chapters, and are chiefly absent in other wings of the
Imperium's military."

And this quote posits that the reason they are scarcely seen outside of Space Marine chapters and never in other wings of the Imperium is due to the necessity of inhuman nerves and reactions.

Come on dude. Really?

Refresh my memory, a Lightning Interceptor is a jet, correct? Aircraft don't have to deal with pesky issues like, I don't know, terrain.

Oh, to make one thing clear: I don't believe that it is literally impossible for a human-being to operate a Land Speeder, even adequately.

But the fluff dictates that the Space Marines can use them so well because of their preternatural reaction-time, whether or not superhuman reaction-time is the minimum for piloting one is irrelevant.

Lysit wrote:
In the Eisenhorn books the Arbites make use of Landspeeders quite often.

Citation please.

Of course I'll note that Eisenhorn IIRC predates the fluff that states that only the Astartes, of any wing in the military, make use of Landspeeders.

 Kaldor wrote:
A Spartan also has increased muscle strength. As much as an Astartes.

Prove this statement.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
A list of spartan augments can be found here. http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures( this leaves out some implants such as neural boosters. I am unsure why they split them up in the wiki)

"Alteration of bioeletrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. 300% increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity."

ah, I see, when I was reading the posts, I misread 300% as 300x.

That isn't nearly enough of a difference in reaction-time between a human being and a Spartan to be a gamebreaker, even assuming Space Marines do not have enhanced reflexes (They do). Though interestingly, that contradicts the listed reaction-time of twenty milliseconds, which is five times faster than what I've heard is the peak biological limit of humans, much less average (The former is 100 milliseconds, latter 250).

When do the Spartans receive the augmentation to enhance their reflexes?

Also, on the note of Space Marine mass vs. Spartan mass: John is 6'10" and 400 pounds, and IIRC described as about average in height and build by Spartan standards. While not much shorter than a Marine, there is a full three hundred pound difference between the two in weight, per the Deathwatch core rulebook, where Marines are nearly seven hundred pounds without their armour. In terms of sheer mass, the Marine has the advantage.

Strength?

The Spartan can apparently lift three times their body weight, whether just off the ground or over their head it does not say, but I will be charitable and assume it is over their head. This would mean they could lift, going by John's numbers, 1,200 pounds, maybe up to a ton. Superhuman absolutely, but how does this really compare to a Marine?

This is admittedly a hard question to answer, largely due to the fact that a Space Marine is almost never not fighting without their strength-enhancing (But not by that signifigant an amount) armour, nor are they given a strength limit. The best I can manage at six in the morning is that, according to the 40k RPGs, the average Marine with a combined Strength and Toughness bonus of 16, could lift 1,350 kg. Aka, about 1.5 tons. Over twice that of a Spartan.

do keep in mind the settings involved. A Sm transported to the Halo verse is limited like everyone else, while a Spartan in 40k has the same ability to go gonzo super hero as everyone else as well. It is an often ignored issue with corssovers.

It is ignored because it's fething nonsensical. If you're elevating one being (the Spartan) and limiting another (The Space Marine), as per your analogy, then this isn't "40k Space Marine vs. Halo Spartan", it is "Theoretical Halo Space Marine vs. Theoretical 40k Spartan", versus battles featuring beings from different IPs must be assumed to take place in a neutral setting, where the combatants have all of their own abilities, and only their own abilities.

I mean, really... This reminds me of the time I found myself stuck in a Bruce Lee vs. Batman h2h debate (Don't ask, I'm not the cretin who made the thread, and it was in a fairly close-knit forum of friends and acquaintances, so I couldn't really avoid it), and someone tried to pass the bull idea that we should arbitrarily lower Batman's capabilities to Bruce Lee's level, because Bruce Lee is constrained to IRL laws and limits, and Batman is not. Well no gak, that's why in this nerdy ass hypothetical battle between a piece of paper and Bruce Lee, Lee gets his ass beat.

Anyway, holy feth, I just stayed up til six to talk about two space men beating eachother up, I'm going to bed.

 Galdos wrote:
A basic Imperial Guardsman can kill a Marine if he hit the marine in the right spot.

With his bare hands? I'd like to see you prove that statement.

A Spartan is equal or at least almost as strong in strength as a Marine.

Based on?

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Based on the fact that they can flip tanks upright, as can Space Marines. How many times have you flipped a Scorpion just to turn it over again?

The Reactive Metal Liquid Crystal Layer of a Spartan's Mjolnir suit doubles their physical strength, which is clocked at three times their body weight.

It's a gameplay mechanic, lol.

 Galdos wrote:
common sense on the first part. Im sorry I have no evidence to support it beyond saying that marines are not made of adamantium, they still have vital organs that can be destroyed with enough force. I doubt there is a single recorded incident of what I said. I mean you can kill a marine with a guardsman with his rifle when the marine has armor on, so logically a lucky hit on the right spot could drop an unarmored marine

With their bare hands?

They typically use bayonets or combat knives with monomolecular edges in combat bub.

The second part is common sense. Both are genetically advanced so they have super human strength, that is fact anyone reading any material will encounter. Both sources have incidents of the soldiers pushing things that a normal human simply cant do. It is safe to assume that a Spartan is equal to or at least ALMOST as strong as a marine. A marine could still be stronger, ya, I am not going to go and luck up the numbers on a random wiki on exactly how much both guys can bench press. Its also worth noting that at certan points, one person being stronger doesnt mean too much. If one person can hit with the number of 7.8 force and the other guy with 7.9, the second guy is stronger but that .1 isnt going to make that big of a difference in a boxing match.

They are both genetically advanced so they have superhuman strength huh? That also describes the Primarchs. Are they also as strong as Spartans and Marines?

willhman wrote:
@ VD The Primarchs were created by the Eom so they were never human to begin with so no they are above spartans and marines.

A valid point, but completely ignores the fallacy of logic I was pointing out, namely the assumption that just because both are enhanced humans, does not mean they have equal strength increase.