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RivenSkull wrote:
Here's your answer

so 417?

Saw this and decided to just write a quick story about my take on the subject. Please pardon any grammar mistakes, just a quick write up and grammar isn't my strong suite.

In a large faintly lit room two great warriors stood sizing one another up. Both stripped of all gear. Standing in simple trousers and t-shirts. One a great Space Marine, the other a Spartan II. Both stood at similar heights. The Marine a few inches taller and a considerable amount taller and bulkier. They both had no clue why they were there or how they had gotten there. Though one thing seemed clear, the man opposite each of them was an enemy and to be killed. They began to stalk towards each other. Both wary of the others unknown capabilities. The Marine made his move first, striking towards the Spartan with a simple punch. The Spartan easily saw the attack coming as to him the marine seemed to be moving slightly slow due to his heightened perception. His quick reflexes easily allowed him to attempt to block the blow. Yet the fist hit him with astonishing force forcing the Spartan to step back and allowing the blow to just graze his torso. In response he quickly dashed in under the Marines arm dealing many rapid strike blows to his torso. It felt like hitting a rock however and didn't even seem to affect the Marine much. The Marines arms attempted to trap the Spartan to his torso however he ducked out and to the side dealing two quick jabs to the Marines head. This finally seems to actually elicit a response from the Marine. The Marine swept to the side in anger and finally caught the Spartan, causing him to stumble. In this split second of weakness the Marine spat a glob of acid at the marine catching the Spartan on the leg. He quickly felt the acid began to eat away at his flesh, and realized he needed to end this quickly. He began to weave around the Marine getting many blows around the Marines guard. Though it was difficult due to what seemed like a centuary of fighting experiance. The blows that did get through didn't due much. But they began to accumulate. The Marine got even less through due to the Spartans annoyingly quick moments and reflexes. But what did go through hit the Spartan hard. Yet over time the Spartans defense began to falter as the acid rendered his leg more and more useless. Finally it gave out and the Spartan received a pounding from the Marine. Finally the Spartan sat broken nd bloodied on the ground unable to do any more. And finally the Marine brought all his strength and all his weight into his foot and crushed the spartans head into the ground. Standing triumphant over the still unknown being, the Marine felt respect for the prowess of his enemy.

On a final note I would like to make clear I'm a major fan of both the halo universe and 40k universe so this shouldn't be majorly biased one way or another.

Again this thread?

They are both superhumans, defenders of Mankind and able to do some really OTT things like jumping from the stratosphere and surviving crash into the planet and killing things that are able to cut trough meter thick armor like hot knife through butter.

Like I said earlier in this topic, if you want to see who will win out se their achievements and enemies. Spartans were fighting only Covenant and that was for less under 100 years.
Space Marines are fighting Orks/Tyranids/Necrons/Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar/Daemons/Their fallen brethren/many other things for the last 10.000 years.

And unlike Spartans, Astartes were actually able in keeping the Imperium safe and much of Mankind intact ( while Spartans almost lose Earth and the rest of Mankind wit hit, just saying... ).

In the end like people said the only advantage Sparatns had over Astartes is speed ( witch is probably true giving that their armor is not heavy like the Astartes one ) but I never looked that as much of an issue for Astartes. It's because they are able to fight and win against the Eldar to whom normal Humans live in slow-motion.
Or are you guys seriously telling me that Spartans are faster then Eldar?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Again this thread?

They are both superhumans, defenders of Mankind and able to do some really OTT things like jumping from the stratosphere and surviving crash into the planet and killing things that are able to cut trough meter thick armor like hot knife through butter.

Like I said earlier in this topic, if you want to see who will win out se their achievements and enemies. Spartans were fighting only Covenant and that was for less under 100 years.
Space Marines are fighting Orks/Tyranids/Necrons/Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar/Daemons/Their fallen brethren/many other things for the last 10.000 years.

And unlike Spartans, Astartes were actually able in keeping the Imperium safe and much of Mankind intact ( while Spartans almost lose Earth and the rest of Mankind wit hit, just saying... ).

In the end like people said the only advantage Sparatns had over Astartes is speed ( witch is probably true giving that their armor is not heavy like the Astartes one ) but I never looked that as much of an issue for Astartes. It's because they are able to fight and win against the Eldar to whom normal Humans live in slow-motion.
Or are you guys seriously telling me that Spartans are faster then Eldar?

No but i believe spartans would be stronger than eldar. So their quickness can be supported by heavy punching

BlaxicanX wrote:
Spartans are faster than marines by feats. John managed to run approx 60 miles per hour, with a torn achilles heel. That's faster running speed than anything we've actually seen from an Astarte.

Reflexes, same thing. Spartans are clocked in at roughly 20 ms reaction times, and see the rest of the world as moving in slow motion- even bullets. Astarte are faster than regular humans by a mile, but by actual feats there isn't much that supports the notion they could touch a spartan.

I think Marines are a lot stronger, as a Spartan can only lift about 2500 pounds (though, in armor, Spartans can crush elites' skulls with a single punch and stop gravity hammer swings with one hand, which is impressive considering a gravity hammer swing can send a warthog sailing through the air), and more durable outside of armor, thus in a brawl he would probably come out on top.

And in Know No Fear, Sergeant Aeonid Thiel managed to cut Sorot Tchure's throat in a microsecond of time. Earlier in the book, Captain Honorius Luciel is able to perceive and process the information, even forming a strategy should he be led into combat, in a nanosecond.

In The First Heretic, Argel Tal is able to avoid what can only be described as a weaponise Tesla Coil, in mid-air, using his jump pack. He is also able to jump in front of a salvo of bolter rounds fired by a Custodian and block them all with his swords.

Then of course there is Prospero Burns, where Bjorn is running faster than the airship he rode in on, as he decimates an army that could have conquered a nation (Granted, they were using norse era weaponry so lol). In the story, an augmented human, Kasper Hauser, has enhanced speed, reaction-time, and perceptions. Yet, he could not perceive the movements of the Rune Priest and Wulfen that were fighting eachother. I could bring up Lucius's casual bullet-timing in combat, but Lucius is probably very exceptional for a Marine in quickness.

Marines can't be counted out entirely in the speed department, they have quite a few feats of their own.

In strength, unarmoured there is no contest IMO, the Marine wins, and is more durable regardless. They also have the advantage of the superior biology that allows them to survive gak the Spartan could not dream of. Also acid spit, lol.

A Space Marine (provided it wasn't an IF or derivative) would just spit on a Spartan and walk off. A Spartan is nothing more than a practice dummy for a Space Marine.

Take an imperial guardsman give him to the mechanicum for a day of modifications for some armour and weapons and you get = A Spartan.

Take a human, re-engineer them with an extra lung, a second heart, 12 extra organs, make the Skeleton 3 times bigger, pump him full of 'roids. Stand well back, allow to settle down, then send to Mechanicum for a day for lots of modifications and some armour and weapons and you get = An Astartes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


And in Know No Fear, Sergeant Aeonid Thiel managed to cut Sorot Tchure's throat in a microsecond of time.

Provide the quote and the page number.

Earlier in the book, Captain Honorius Luciel is able to perceive and process the information, even forming a strategy should he be led into combat, in a nanosecond.

Provide the quote and the page number.

In The First Heretic, Argel Tal is able to avoid what can only be described as a weaponise Tesla Coil, in mid-air, using his jump pack.

Provide the quote and the page number.

He is also able to jump in front of a salvo of bolter rounds fired by a Custodian and block them all with his swords.

Provide the quote and the page number.

All I can say is a black hole opens and sucks all participants of the the 'grand melee' into oblivion. Final result: Unknown till we are also pulled in...

BlaxicanX wrote:
Provide the quote and the page number.

"Sorot Tchure hears the noise his master makes. He is focused on his combat with the Ultramarines raiders, but he cannot help but turn his eyes for a second. Less than a second. A microsecond.
Thiel sees his opening. His practical. It is infinitesimal, a tiny chink in the Word Bearer?s guard. It lasts a microsecond, and it will not be repeated.
He puts his sword through it.
The longsword shears the right side of Tchure?s helm away. Cheek, ear and part of the skull separate with it. Tchure stumbles, bewildered by the pain, the shock, the disorientation"
- Know No Fear, page 392

Provide the quote and the page number.

"The Word Bearer is almost unrecognisable. For a nanosecond, the figure registers to Luciel as an unknown, a threat.
Transhuman responses are already there, unbidden. Adrenaline spikes to heighten an already formidable reaction time. Muscle remembers. Luciel wears his boltgun, an oiled black pit bull of a weapon, in his thigh holster. He can draw, aim and fire in less than a second. The range is six metres, the target unobstructed. There is no chance of
missing. Maximus plate, frontally augmented, might stop a mass-reactive shell, so Luciel will fire two and aim for the visor slits. The airgate skin-sleeve is self-repairing, and will survive las-fire damage, but a bolter shot will shred it open, so Luciel also braces for the explosive decompression of a ricochet or a miss-hit. At a simple, subconscious neural urge, boot-sole electromagnets charge to clamp onto the deck plates.
Luciel thinks theoretical, but of course there is no theoretical. There is no tactical precedent for a Space Marine to fight a Space Marine. The idea is nonsense. He thinks practical, and that directs him to the visor slits. He can make a clean kill headshot in less than a second and a half, two rounds for kill insurance, and probably protect the atmospheric integrity of the airgate.
All this, all this decided, unbidden, instinctive, in less than a nanosecond."
- Know No Fear, page 20-21

Provide the quote and the page number.

I can't provide the page number due to being a filthy criminal, but:

"Argel Tal took two running steps; the first sent tremors through
the balcony, the second shattered the railing as he kicked off
from it, leaping into the air. His thrusters roared, breathing
smoke and fire as he fell from sky. The twin blades trailed blurs
of lightning.
‘Aurelian!’ the warriors of Torgal Squad cried out, leaping from
their eyries to slice through the air, following their captain down
on whining engines. ‘Aurelian!’
Argel Tal led the dive, hurling himself to the side as burning
electricity arced up from the artificial below. A second later he
was on the creature, twisting around it to bring his boot crashing
against its glass head. Chips of diamond sprayed away as its
skull snapped back. Both power swords fell a heartbeat later, the
blades hammering into the artificial’s face. More twinkling
shards scattered like hailstones."
- The First Heretic, chapter 7

Provide the quote and the page number.

"VENDATHA WAS NOT a fool. He knew the odds of surviving the
next few moments were slim, and he knew a primarch’s reflexes
were the peak of biological possibility, faster than even his own,
which bordered on the preternatural.
But Lorgar was at ease, his muscles loose. He actually expected
his offer of truce to hold some weight, and that lapse in judgement
was enough for Vendatha to take the chance. He pulled the
haft-trigger, and his spear’s underslung bolter cracked off a
stream of rounds on full-auto.
Argel Tal saw it coming. The swords of red iron smashed the
first three bolts aside, their power fields strong enough to detonate
the shells as they streaked towards the primarch’s heart. The
explosions threw the captain to the ground, his grey armour
scraping along the stone with the shriek of offended ceramite."

The First Heretic, Chapter 15

Gotta love Black Library novels.

The whole debate is looking more and more like a contest of "who has the most ridiculous fluff in tie-in fiction"

 prophet102 wrote:
This question has been asked before. I am aware of that. But it was always with armor and weapons. What i want to know is who would win if one spartan and one space marine where locked in a room in normal people clothes. Who would win? and what if it where John (Master Chief) vs. a space marine hero (i.e. draigo, calgar, lysander). Also no psychic powers by space marines.

Honestly, the fight would probably be to a stand still. Out of armour both are 7' tall killing machines with bone made of some metal-ceramic composite. Spartans have been shown to be able to drop-kick full exo-suits (larger than their powered armour) across rooms before they have even reached adulthood. Marines can probably perform similar feats outside of armour. Both are wired to be fast, strong and tough. If you ran the scenario 100 times if would be close to a 50/50 split.

117 vs. another character, mostly down to narrative conceits, though John has the advantage of having plot armour that is canon in his own universe (his most valuable trait was his ineffable luck which he possessed even before augmentation).

But in the end, without armour, they are basically the exact same thing with slightly differing augmentations. The author would have more baring on the outcome then any list of capabilities.

But because it's fun (and no one ever posts what the Spartan-II augments actually are) I think a comparison of of abilities is in order:

Spartan-II Augmentation:

Carbide Ceramic Ossification (Space Marine Equivalent: Ossmodula) - Surgery is performed on the arms and legs of the subject's body to expose the bone. An advanced carbide ceramic material is grafted onto the skeletal structure to begin skeletal ossification. This process works by breaking down bone and rebuilding it stronger then before. This results in the bones being virtually unbreakable. The coverage of this procedure does not exceed 3% total bone mass due to significant white blood cell necrosis; to make up for that a growth hormone is administered to help strengthen the bones throughout the rest of the body.

Personal Notes: This is the big one in terms of toughness for both Spartans and Marines. Breaking a bone is a great way to get taken out of battle. Not being able to hold your gun, or put weight on your leg makes you as useless as a dead man. In both cases the bones are fused/augmented via some kind of hardened bio-ceramic. Pretty much identical (the only major difference is the fusing of the rib cage, but considering that that reduces flexibility in the torso I don't think the Marines gain much out of it).

Muscular Enhancement Injections (Space Marine Equivalent: Biscopea) - In addition to the growth hormone catalyst, a protein complex is injected intramuscularly that targets the muscles' intracellular molecular machinery to help increase muscle strength and endurance. These injections target the muscles' molecules increasing the density of the connective tissues and fibers, the more visible result being the muscles quivering and contorting over one another, making connecting tendons stronger and decreasing lactase recovery time.

Personal Notes: This is basically completely identical, though the same augment also gives Spartans enhanced stamina (they recover from acidosis quicker after things like long sprints). Not much else to add. They are both strong like bull/

Catalytic Thyroid Implant (Space Marine Equivalent: Biscopea & Ossmodula... again) - A platinum pellet is implanted in the left thyroid gland; this pellet contains a human growth hormone that is released into the body to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues. As the hormone is released into the body the pellet dissolves and is absorbed. The hormone targets and stimulates the growth of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers, effectively producing significant gains in muscle mass. The hormone also targets osteoblasts to help boost bone tissue formation and effectively strengthen the bone structure.

Personal Notes: Here we see Spartans getting a double dip of strength (and speed since it also increases fast twitch muscle growth) and toughness (more bone density). Whether this makes them stronger than a Marine is hard to say. But considering the running speeds they are able to get up to it certainly makes them sound really bloody strong. The alternative is that they need three augmentations to do what Space Marines get in two. Who knows?

Occipital Capillary Reversal (Space Marine Equivalent: Occulobe) - Surgery is performed on the occipital lobe of the left cerebral hemisphere of the brain; the occipital lobe is the visual processing center of the brain, containing most of the anatomical region of the visual cortex. The surgeon performs a procedure on the capillaries, the smallest of the body's blood vessels, to reverse the direction of blood flow in each capillary to boost the blood flow beneath the rods and cones of the subject's retina. The rods and cones of the eye are light-sensitive receptors located in the back of the eye. Together they are able to detect movement, light and color, and relay that information back to the brain. This procedure produces a marked visual perception increase.

Personal Notes: Both of them can see incredibly well and it seems the Spartan augment allows them to not only see well in the dark but also track movement incredible well. Of course the rest of the Marine's "sensor suite" isn't augmented, so marines have better hearing and smell (and taste oddly).

Superconducting Fibrification of Neural Dendrites (Space Marine Equivalent: None) - Alteration of bioeletrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. 300% increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity.

Personal Notes: This is where things get funkier. Marines get most of their enhanced reaction time from purely physical enhancements (muscle growth, like the Spartan). But none of their augmentations are specifically keyed to speeding up their reflexes. What's more this augment has a knock-on effect with the rest of the brain and makes the Spartan smarter and more creative than an average human (though some of that may be a side-effect of choosing some of the most gifted humans in existence). Either way, this is a fairly unique part of Spartan augmentation not shared by marines.

Spartan Neural Interface (Space Marine Equivalent: Black Carapace... kind of) - In addition to the standard functions of a neural interface, the SPARTAN neural interface is unique in that it is designed to allow an AI construct to directly interface with the SPARTAN's brain. Therefore, the AI is reside both inside the armor and inside the wearer's mind. Essentially, it is in both places at once. The interface allows the AI access to most of the suit's internal systems, though the SPARTAN has override control. The AI is capable of significantly improving the data transfer rate between the motor cortex of the SPARTAN and the MJOLNIR's processing unit, further improving the SPARTAN's already lightning-quick reaction time.

[i]Personal Notes - Another somewhat unique one. Both the Neural Interface and the Black Carapace allow direct interfacing with suits of powered armour. But the Neural Interface is more advanced than that. But luckily for this discussion it mostly pertains to being in-armour for the Spartan. Inside the suit of armour, the already 300% boost in reaction is further augmented by real-time input editing by an interfaced AI. But also fairly important is that this implant allows a Spartan to always have a piggy-backing AI, even outside of their armour. A useful augmentation to say the least. The Spartan has much more sophisticated brain-ware than the Marine to say the least. Though in the Marine's favour the Black Carapace is a bit of extra armour (though it is only a hardened plastic).

Useful Combat Augmentations Spartans Lack
- Secondary Heart (Not big in to bio-mechanics, but this has to help at least a little)
- Haemastamen (Another circilatory-system enhancer that probably puts Marines ahead in terms of efficient use of oxygen)
- Larraman's Organ (This speeds healing by enhancing the rate of scar formation, may not keep you in a fight, but gets you back to it quicker)
- Catalepsean Node (Two weeks of constant uptime before needing sleep, not helpful in the OP's scenario but useful in some combat situations)
- Multi-lung (Another circulation enhancer and a closed breathing environment to boot!)
- Lyman's Ear (Better hearing and good balance)
- Betcher's Gland (Spit acid, in normal combat... not useful, but in the OP's setup, very useful!)

Useful Non-Combat Augmentations Spartan's Lack
[i]Note: None of these would really help them in the given scenario and are mostly side benefits that don't make them strictly better combatants
- Preomnor (Marines can basically digest anything).
- Omophagea (The whole brain-eating-memory thing. A nifty scouting trick if marines tended to act more covertly, not terribly useful in general combat).
- Sus-an Membrane (Another survival measure, useful if in critical condition and within reach of allies).
- Melanchromic Organ (Marines don't sun-burn easy).
- Oolitic Kidney (Poison immunity is neat, but it comes at the price of becoming comatose while fighting strong poisons, which can be less than optimal)
- Neuroglottis (Best sense of taste in the galaxy).
- Mucranoid (Useful for fighting in extreme conditions, but not something they can flip on or off with a thought; needs external activation).
- Progenoids (Possibly counts as a downside, the UNSC know how to make new Spartans, but new Marines depend on the recovery of old ones)

In terms of training and conditioning we see very similar set-ups. Spartans do start training quite early though (age six). Even children on Death Worlds are still likely having (twisted) childhoods at that point. Marines tend to start training closer to 9-12 years of age. But in the end both are indoctrinated and subjected to the most punishing military training possible.

But on the whole Spartans have augmentations that mimic the most important Marine augments (strength, speed, tougness, armour interface) and one (one and a half really) that is not copied on Marines at all (massive reaction time boost with a knock on intelligence and creativity increase; plus a side of AI Agent interfacing). Marines have seven additional augments not copied by Spartans. Of these most have to do with giving them a more efficient circulatory system but not directly enhancing their combat capabilities. The rest are mostly things that have minor effects on combat performance but are helpful in a more general sense (the acid spit is the most useful in this exercise). Finally Marines have a further eight augments that are useful in a general sense but have little direct combat application (and thus don't help marines in the OP's scenario).

To Conclude - Marines and Spartans are pretty close to being as tough and as strong as one another (and side-effects of either's augmentations give them an endurance boost). Whether you interpret the stacking of Spartan strength/speed/toughness augmentations as making them better than marines is up to you. I figure it is close enough to be academic without hard numbers. Spartans have eyesight enhancements that are equal and possibly better (due to specific mentions of movment tracking) than a Marine. It is indisputable that Spartans have an actual canon enhancement for their reaction time and that Marines do not (sorry Black Library). So we can surmise that Spartans are a fair shake quicker on the uptake than a marine. Marines edge Spartans out a bit in terms of recovery time (a lot of augments dedicated to keeping a marine alive, even when taken out of action).

The acid spit is a good trick, but one has to weigh that against the upside of having massively increased reaction times (we'll ignore a piggy-backing AI for the OP's scenario) that could possible see and dodge a spit attack before it ever became an issue. So considering all this, I stand by my assertion that in a Spartan vs. Marine duel without armour or weapons, you have about as close to a 50/50 split as you will get. In the end the author will have more of an effect given that outside of the armour they are almost identical in terms of general capability.

Per official lore though, Spartans generally top out at being about class 1, aka, able to lift about a ton above their heads. Marines are generally portrayed as stronger, while studio fluff doesn't typically delve into individual Marine feats of strength (And when they do, it's typically insane nonsense like Draigo holding down a Primarch, or tearing a Daemon Prince limb from limb.

 Lynata wrote:


Gotta love Black Library novels.

The whole debate is looking more and more like a contest of "who has the most ridiculous fluff in tie-in fiction"

Indeed, one can't help but love BL novels that are far and away superior to the majority of GW's own work.

Edit:

[6:06:12 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: wat
[6:07:05 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: hahaha
[6:07:08 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: You actually did it
[6:07:10 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: what a nerd
[6:07:35 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: time to disqualify it all with weasely lawyer-esque technicalities and outrageous claims

This is where Blax will try to discredit me with trolling, as you see above.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Provide the quote and the page number.

"Sorot Tchure hears the noise his master makes. He is focused on his combat with the Ultramarines raiders, but he cannot help but turn his eyes for a second. Less than a second. A microsecond.
Thiel sees his opening. His practical. It is infinitesimal, a tiny chink in the Word Bearer?s guard. It lasts a microsecond, and it will not be repeated.
He puts his sword through it.
The longsword shears the right side of Tchure?s helm away. Cheek, ear and part of the skull separate with it. Tchure stumbles, bewildered by the pain, the shock, the disorientation"
- Know No Fear, page 392

Provide the quote and the page number.

"The Word Bearer is almost unrecognisable. For a nanosecond, the figure registers to Luciel as an unknown, a threat.
Transhuman responses are already there, unbidden. Adrenaline spikes to heighten an already formidable reaction time. Muscle remembers. Luciel wears his boltgun, an oiled black pit bull of a weapon, in his thigh holster. He can draw, aim and fire in less than a second. The range is six metres, the target unobstructed. There is no chance of
missing. Maximus plate, frontally augmented, might stop a mass-reactive shell, so Luciel will fire two and aim for the visor slits. The airgate skin-sleeve is self-repairing, and will survive las-fire damage, but a bolter shot will shred it open, so Luciel also braces for the explosive decompression of a ricochet or a miss-hit. At a simple, subconscious neural urge, boot-sole electromagnets charge to clamp onto the deck plates.
Luciel thinks theoretical, but of course there is no theoretical. There is no tactical precedent for a Space Marine to fight a Space Marine. The idea is nonsense. He thinks practical, and that directs him to the visor slits. He can make a clean kill headshot in less than a second and a half, two rounds for kill insurance, and probably protect the atmospheric integrity of the airgate.
All this, all this decided, unbidden, instinctive, in less than a nanosecond."
- Know No Fear, page 20-21

Provide the quote and the page number.

I can't provide the page number due to being a filthy criminal, but:

"Argel Tal took two running steps; the first sent tremors through
the balcony, the second shattered the railing as he kicked off
from it, leaping into the air. His thrusters roared, breathing
smoke and fire as he fell from sky. The twin blades trailed blurs
of lightning.
‘Aurelian!’ the warriors of Torgal Squad cried out, leaping from
their eyries to slice through the air, following their captain down
on whining engines. ‘Aurelian!’
Argel Tal led the dive, hurling himself to the side as burning
electricity arced up from the artificial below. A second later he
was on the creature, twisting around it to bring his boot crashing
against its glass head. Chips of diamond sprayed away as its
skull snapped back. Both power swords fell a heartbeat later, the
blades hammering into the artificial’s face. More twinkling
shards scattered like hailstones."
- The First Heretic, chapter 7

Provide the quote and the page number.

"VENDATHA WAS NOT a fool. He knew the odds of surviving the
next few moments were slim, and he knew a primarch’s reflexes
were the peak of biological possibility, faster than even his own,
which bordered on the preternatural.
But Lorgar was at ease, his muscles loose. He actually expected
his offer of truce to hold some weight, and that lapse in judgement
was enough for Vendatha to take the chance. He pulled the
haft-trigger, and his spear’s underslung bolter cracked off a
stream of rounds on full-auto.
Argel Tal saw it coming. The swords of red iron smashed the
first three bolts aside, their power fields strong enough to detonate
the shells as they streaked towards the primarch’s heart. The
explosions threw the captain to the ground, his grey armour
scraping along the stone with the shriek of offended ceramite."

The First Heretic, Chapter 15

You're taking hyperbole and figures of speech and trying to use them as literal benchmarks. That's not gonna fly. Obviously "nanosecond" is a figure of speech, and "burning lightning" is a colorful descriptor.

Void__Dragon wrote:Indeed, one can't help but love BL novels that are far and away superior to the majority of GW's own work.

Honestly, those quotes make 40k sound as if it was some sort of Dragonball Z in Space. I'm sure it's just a matter of preferences, but I cannot "get" how this kind of storytelling can have that many fans. To me, such reality-bending narration would be a huge minus.
Fortunately, I know that not all Marine stories are that bad, but it sure is a good way to deter me from ever spending money on more, just for the risk of reading more like that stuff.

At least GW has a higher ratio of (short) stories that are epic / cool to read whilst still fitting in with the rest of the world rather than making you feel you're watching an episode of the Hercules TV series.
Take Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon, for example. That was a good read.

[quote=Void__Dragon 497426 5128925 123938340dfbb08f592db5a87f203ac7.jpg
Edit:[6:06:12 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: wat
[6:07:05 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: hahaha
[6:07:08 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: You actually did it
[6:07:10 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: what a nerd
[6:07:35 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: time to disqualify it all with weasely lawyer-esque technicalities and outrageous claims

This is where Blax will try to discredit me with trolling, as you see above.

 Lynata wrote:

The whole debate is looking more and more like a contest of "who has the most ridiculous fluff in tie-in fiction"

In that case why the debate? We all know that 40k wins in "I have the most ridiculous OTT fluff in sci-fi history" contest.

 Lynata wrote:
Honestly, those quotes make 40k sound as if it was some sort of Dragonball Z in Space.

What a ridiculous comparison. 40k is vastly more powerful than DBZ could hope to be (Though I hear some incredibly gakky movie featuring a bubblegum rabbit is coming out that may change that).

I'm sure it's just a matter of preferences, but I cannot "get" how this kind of storytelling can have that many fans. To me, such reality-bending narration would be a huge minus.
Fortunately, I know that not all Marine stories are that bad, but it sure is a good way to deter me from ever spending money on more, just for the risk of reading more like that stuff.

It's a shame that something as trivial as power level deters you so. While obviously not Faulkner or Hemingway, as far as space operas (Much less licensed space operas, for a gander at how bad it really can get, try reading Star Wars EU) go, they're pretty good reads. Sometimes. There are of course bad BL books, like Gav Thorpe and his emomarines, but that has more to do with aforementioned whiny teenage crap than power level.

And really, the basis for these guys? Greek demigods, maybe some epic heroes in Lord of the Rings, that kind of gak, etc. Hercules could lift the sky, Gandalf leveled the side of a mountain when he struck down the Balrog. These incredible feats of might are par the course for these types of stories.

At least GW has a higher ratio of (short) stories that are epic / cool to read whilst still fitting in with the rest of the world rather than making you feel you're watching an episode of the Hercules TV series.
Take Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon, for example. That was a good read.

I can't recall, not being much of a Blood Angel fan myself. Which iteration/codex was this in?

As far as codex fluff goes, I liked Belial's battle with the Weirdboy on Piscina V (I think?), a lot of the Ork battles in Codex: Orks, and some of the old Index Astartes articles, like Leman Russ vs. Magnus (Even if McNeill's in-depth iteration in A Thousand Sons is superior).


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 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
In that case why the debate? We all know that 40k wins in "I have the most ridiculous OTT fluff in sci-fi history" contest.

Not even.

A single Eternal from Doctor Who could imprison the entire galaxy into the Void and destroy Chaos with a thought.

The Downstreamers from the Manifold series can create machines that can survive a thousand Big Bangs and Crunches each second with no scratch, and in fact survived the recreation of the multiverse, and changed it from a finite, set amount of universes, to a limitless amount.

And many more. As far as SF settings constrained to a single galaxy go, 40k is pretty tough, sure, but it isn't anywhere near top dog in the grand scheme of things.

 Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Indeed, one can't help but love BL novels that are far and away superior to the majority of GW's own work.

Honestly, those quotes make 40k sound as if it was some sort of Dragonball Z in Space. I'm sure it's just a matter of preferences, but I cannot "get" how this kind of storytelling can have that many fans. To me, such reality-bending narration would be a huge minus.
Fortunately, I know that not all Marine stories are that bad, but it sure is a good way to deter me from ever spending money on more, just for the risk of reading more like that stuff.

At least GW has a higher ratio of (short) stories that are epic / cool to read whilst still fitting in with the rest of the world rather than making you feel you're watching an episode of the Hercules TV series.
Take Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon, for example. That was a good read.

+1. It's just meaningless bolter-porn, filler for when authors struggle to come up with compelling plots and interesting characters.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:In that case why the debate? We all know that 40k wins in "I have the most ridiculous OTT fluff in sci-fi history" contest.

Does it? I don't know the Halo novels...
But I definitively see the possibility, especially since (by now) 40k is also a much bigger franchise, with much more people publishing lots more personal interpretations.

When it comes down to it, both IPs have almost the same potential in this area, though. Looking at Space Marines and Halo's Master Chief, they essentially apply to the same audience, using the same cliché of male military action heroes being better than anyone else and pulling off the most incredible stunts.
40k's Marines may also have a subset of fans who like them based on an individual Chapter's backstory or style, or even the thinly veiled Grimdark behind the super(hu)man facade, but I'd actually suspect these to be a minority, at least based on the posts on various forums, or the popularity of "bolterporn" novels.

Void__Dragon wrote:What a ridiculous comparison. 40k is vastly more powerful than DBZ could hope to be (Though I hear some incredibly gakky movie featuring a bubblegum rabbit is coming out that may change that).

Define "powerful" ... are we talking about compelling narratives and the setting, or the abilities of various characters?

In case of the former, I'd agree, but in case of the latter, both franchises seem to sport some fairly over the top stuff. And for 40k, it kind of "taints" the seriousness of the background, though this is ofc just my impression. In other words, it's not something I as a fan would be "proud of". Matter of taste/preferences though.

Void__Dragon wrote:for a gander at how bad it really can get, try reading Star Wars EU

I don't see much of a difference between Star Wars' Expanded Universe and the Black Library - other than one of them actually having consistency. Both IPs have good and bad books. I'm certainly not saying that I've never read a good BL book, either! Just that a large number of them seems to be ... well ... a tad too "superhero'ish" to me. I much prefer gritty and realistic rather than some godlike being pulling off incredible stunts to save the world on his own. (there are of course exceptions to this - it all depends on the focus of the setting as a whole)

For what it's worth, most of the SW EU books I read were about very minor characters such as soldiers and military officers or criminals trying to get by. I've purposefully avoided stuff about the major characters because I know that many authors are compelled to have them do "hero stuff".
To me, stuff like that always comes across a little like a cheap way to raise interest in the story. A book should not stand or fall chiefly on the abilities of the main character, but on plot and interaction. Likewise, a character's weaknesses are far more interesting and potential-holding features than his strengths. Hence, stories with less important characters (who the author would have a harder time justifying special abilities) consistently came across as requiring more thought and delicacy, if you get my drift. Needless to say, a bad author can still mess this up, just like good authors can work with powerful characters without turning them into Mary-Sues. It's just that there are so few good authors, I guess.

Void__Dragon wrote:I can't recall, not being much of a Blood Angel fan myself. Which iteration/codex was this in?

No Codex, it was ... lemme check ... White Dwarf #251, page 86. Just a single page, but one of the best 40k stories I've ever read. A fitting end for a hero - going out with a boom. There, his heroics were sort of "balanced" by the character still dying at the end. I don't mind people pulling off stunts as long as they still come across as vulnerable, y'know? Following the exploits of some sort of invul fighter just doesn't seem all that compelling to me. The harder someone fights, the more they should pay for it. Makes it all more realistic - and thus more intrigueing, as you as the reader will be less likely to be able to guess what happens next. Will the character succeed? Will he fail? If he fails, will he die or survive to try again another day...? Game of Thrones-style.

http://www.myspace.com/aldo_miles/blog/419280458
Here's an online copy of the text. I dunno if it's already what you would call "emo" - to me it's at best "tragic". And tragic is fine. Was an integral part to a lot of the ancient myths you mentioned, too. To me, it has a firm place in 40k due to being a central pillar of what makes "Grimdark".

Void__Dragon wrote:A single Eternal from Doctor Who could imprison the entire galaxy into the Void and destroy Chaos with a thought.
The Downstreamers from the Manifold series can create machines that can survive a thousand Big Bangs and Crunches each second with no scratch, and in fact survived the recreation of the multiverse, and changed it from a finite, set amount of universes, to a limitless amount.

*shiver*

 Kaldor wrote:
+1. It's just meaningless bolter-porn, filler for when authors struggle to come up with compelling plots and interesting characters.

The irony here being that Aaron Dembski-Bowden, your favorite BL author, is the one who wrote The First Heretic, lol.

Not to even mentioning the other very ironic elephant in the room that I won't mention because I want to play nice.

 Grey Templar wrote:

And even then, the game designers themselves have said that the "Canon" level of Sparten durability to to play Halo on Hard mode.

.

Im fairly sure this is not true. First it doesnt make any sense in terms of naming. (You mean to tell me that in canon, the story of the Halos occured on the difficulty called "Hard" and not on the difficulty called Normal? You realize this sounds rediculous)

Second, it fails to match up with any source of canon on the Halos. Try getting through the Halos on hard without ever taking armor damage, its near impossible because the enemy does so much damage per shot (on legendary 3 shots from a Plasma Rifle caused armor damage) yet the Master Chief in the books RARELY even completely loses his shield. In the books he can take 3 hits from a Fuel Rod and still be standing.

No Im fairly certain the game designers intended for the game to be played on hard for maximum enjoyment that you get knowing that any of these challenges will easily be able to kill you and you will die quite a few times and burn through ammo like mad. The story would take place on Normal however.




However your point stil stands. The shield goes down VERY quickly. 3-4 shots would probably drop a Spartan

 Lynata wrote:
Define "powerful" ... are we talking about compelling narratives and the setting, or the abilities of various characters?

I am pretty sure you should know which I meant. And, despite my nostalgia for the series, both, mostly (The manga is better than the anime).

the seriousness of the background

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/2/22/20781_md-Chaos%20Space%20Marines,%20Emperor's%20Children,%20Noise%20Marines.jpg

I know, a bit out of date, but I had to.

I don't see much of a difference between Star Wars' Expanded Universe and the Black Library -

I'm guessing you haven't read much of either?

other than one of them actually having consistency.

I hope you are not trying to imply SW EU is consistent, lol.

Both IPs have good and bad books. I'm certainly not saying that I've never read a good BL book, either! Just that a large number of them seems to be ... well ... a tad too "superhero'ish" to me. I much prefer gritty and realistic rather than some godlike being pulling off incredible stunts to save the world on his own. (there are of course exceptions to this - it all depends on the focus of the setting as a whole)

Which none of my examples had, and frankly, 40k as a setting may be gritty, but it isn't even close to realistic. I mean, look at Harker. He strangles a Tyranid Ravener with his bare hands, a feat on par with the strength of a Marine. He's a normal human.

40k is founded on incredible feats of might and heroism.

For what it's worth, most of the SW EU books I read were about very minor characters such as soldiers and military officers or criminals trying to get by. I've purposefully avoided stuff about the major characters because I know that many authors are compelled to have them do "hero stuff".

Lucky you then. The sheer staggering amount of bs forked out by the EU is... Staggering.

To me, stuff like that always comes across a little like a cheap way to raise interest in the story. A book should not stand or fall chiefly on the abilities of the main character, but on plot and interaction. Likewise, a character's weaknesses are far more interesting and potential-holding features than his strengths. Hence, stories with less important characters (who the author would have a harder time justifying special abilities) consistently came across as requiring more thought and delicacy, if you get my drift. Needless to say, a bad author can still mess this up, just like good authors can work with powerful characters without turning them into Mary-Sues. It's just that there are so few good authors, I guess.

Or it is just a followup to the larger than life feats and heroics that are present in the mythologies the setting has some basis in, lol. And honestly, 40k's feats of might are outright subtle compared to the source material at times.

A character can be personally powerful while still possessing flaws that render them fallible. Magnus the Red is an example, very intelligent and with the power to raze the surface of a planet, knows almost all there is to know of sorcery. But, to borrow Manchu's phrasing, what he didn't know outweighed what he did, and his own arrogance doomed him and his legion.

To demonstrate an example I posted... Argel Tal, despite his prowess, and despite knowing that betraying the Imperium is wrong, and the ugly truth of Chaos, hell, despite growing to resent and loathe Lorgar, his Primarch, is ultimately unable to turn his back on Lorgar, despite not wanting to go through with Lorgar's designs. That is a weakness, he is loyal to a self-destructive extent.

No Codex, it was ... lemme check ... White Dwarf #251, page 86. Just a single page, but one of the best 40k stories I've ever read. A fitting end for a hero - going out with a boom. There, his heroics were sort of "balanced" by the character still dying at the end. I don't mind people pulling off stunts as long as they still come across as vulnerable, y'know? Following the exploits of some sort of invul fighter just doesn't seem all that compelling to me. The harder someone fights, the more they should pay for it. Makes it all more realistic - and thus more intrigueing, as you as the reader will be less likely to be able to guess what happens next. Will the character succeed? Will he fail? If he fails, will he die or survive to try again another day...? Game of Thrones-style.

http://www.myspace.com/aldo_miles/blog/419280458
Here's an online copy of the text. I dunno if it's already what you would call "emo" - to me it's at best "tragic". And tragic is fine. Was an integral part to a lot of the ancient myths you mentioned, too. To me, it has a firm place in 40k due to being a central pillar of what makes "Grimdark".

It is worth mentioning that Honorius, the Ultramarine I mentioned, was ultimately killed by his friend, Sorot Tchure, when he was so dumbstruck by his betrayal that he couldn't react in time to stop Sorot from blowing a hole in his chest with a plasma pistol. That said, Know No Fear did have an annoying problem concerning plot armour, where most Word Bearers besides Sorot Tchure and Kor Phaeron (He beat Roboute Guilliman in a fight) are given the guardsmen treatment: Only really threatening to Ultramarines when outnumbering them.

That was a pretty good read, and no, "emo", which I spoke of, was when Corvus Corax looked up at the sky, and cried a single tear, BECAUSE HE FELT OH SO ALONE IN THE UNIVERSE OH SO SAD WAAAAH!!!

Tragedy is good. The fall of Magnus the Red? Tragic (Horus's also should have been but eh).

Void__Dragon wrote:*shiver*

In the case of the Eternals, to be fair, they are basically the Cthulhus/Chaos Gods of Doctor Who. As for the Downstreamers, I mostly just have second-hand knowledge of them so can't say.

 Galdos wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

And even then, the game designers themselves have said that the "Canon" level of Sparten durability to to play Halo on Hard mode.

.

Im fairly sure this is not true. First it doesnt make any sense in terms of naming. (You mean to tell me that in canon, the story of the Halos occured on the difficulty called "Hard" and not on the difficulty called Normal? You realize this sounds rediculous)

Second, it fails to match up with any source of canon on the Halos. Try getting through the Halos on hard without ever taking armor damage, its near impossible because the enemy does so much damage per shot (on legendary 3 shots from a Plasma Rifle caused armor damage) yet the Master Chief in the books RARELY even completely loses his shield. In the books he can take 3 hits from a Fuel Rod and still be standing.

No Im fairly certain the game designers intended for the game to be played on hard for maximum enjoyment that you get knowing that any of these challenges will easily be able to kill you and you will die quite a few times and burn through ammo like mad. The story would take place on Normal however.

However your point stil stands. The shield goes down VERY quickly. 3-4 shots would probably drop a Spartan

However contrary to your hard vs normal mode argument. Please go the menu for the diffuculties in the halo games. Heroic is hard mode not legendary which would be very hard mode. It states that "This is the way Halo was meant to be played" this could be taken multiple ways. For instance you could take this as this is how the game is meant to be played enjoyably. However it could also take this is how it would actually be for a Spartan. I think the latter or else they would have made this the normal mode as to encourage most people to play it.

Galdos wrote:Second, it fails to match up with any source of canon on the Halos. Try getting through the Halos on hard without ever taking armor damage, its near impossible because the enemy does so much damage per shot (on legendary 3 shots from a Plasma Rifle caused armor damage) yet the Master Chief in the books RARELY even completely loses his shield. In the books he can take 3 hits from a Fuel Rod and still be standing.

Has there even been an official statement from the owners of the IP regarding any supposed canonicity of the novels?

I know this is a fairly tricky subject. Many people just assume that anything published under a label is "all canon", but as franchises such as Star Trek or 40k show us, that must not always be the case.
And even where a company has stated this would be the case ... just look at the Mass Effect: Deception debacle.

Details such as "what does it take to lose the shield" are fairly open to story necessities. If a writer does not feel the character should require medical aid soon, it may simply regarded as prudent to make sure he never gets wounded in the first place. Until the story calls for it.

Void__Dragon wrote: http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/2/22/20781_md-Chaos%20Space%20Marines,%20Emperor's%20Children,%20Noise%20Marines.jpg
I know, a bit out of date, but I had to.

A bit of silliness is fine - if coupled with the proper amount of Grimdark.
Yeah, it seems a bit contradictory, but .. I dunno, I just feel as if GW managed to hit that very thin line between awesome and crazy. Even with Noise Marines. They do have their place in the setting.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm guessing you haven't read much of either?

Black Library, not really. Star Wars ... uhhh ... certainly more, but only a couple dozen novels and comics. Due to the size of the franchise, I don't think it would qualify as "much". Either I was just very lucky with Star Wars, or had lots of bad luck with 40k. You gotta agree that the "hero hype" is much stronger with 40k, though, and 90% of anything Black Library churns out seems to be another story about how the Space Marines save the day. I can't say for sure that the EU as a whole has better writing, but I can say for sure that it has more diversity.

Void__Dragon wrote:I hope you are not trying to imply SW EU is consistent, lol.

Well, unlike 40k, it at least does have official policies regarding canon, as well as a database and a dedicated employee who is tasked with solving potential contradictions (see here). This makes discussions amidst fans much easier to solve, as you can actually point to a source and say "this tops that".

Void__Dragon wrote:Which none of my examples had, and frankly, 40k as a setting may be gritty, but it isn't even close to realistic. I mean, look at Harker. He strangles a Tyranid Ravener with his bare hands, a feat on par with the strength of a Marine. He's a normal human.

Regarding your examples ... you do know that a microsecond is one millionth of a second? We're not talking about this Thiel just stabbing another guy. To pull this off, his weapon basically needs to be displaced and rematerialise inside its target. That's anime-level shenanigans, and not something I could take serious.
I realise that the author likely did not intend it to be read that literal, and that this is just exaggeration for the purpose of adding more epicness to this singular act ... and if it was just a one time slip-up, I could easily forgive him. But it seems to be that such narration occurs throughout the entire book.

As for Harker, he's certainly not "a normal human", which is evident when you look at his TT stats (S4) or read his fluff. In my opinion, these Black Library novels just served to push people's expectations of the gap between Marines and humans too far apart from how GW portrays the setting. That may be a flaw in the eyes of someone who agrees with some of these novel authors, but you cannot fault the creators of the franchise for just having a different position of how their world should look like. If anything, blame the novel authors for creating such a schism in the fanbase.

Void__Dragon wrote:40k is founded on incredible feats of might and heroism.

Hmmh, I won't deny this, but the 40k I know is still more realistic.
I suppose it is a question of thresholds. Perhaps we all just draw the line in different places, as far as "power levels" are concerned.

Also, I wouldn't much say that 40k is "founded on incredible feats of might and heroism" but rather the myths and tales of them. Just like in the real world, it doesn't actually mean they occurred as such. One of my issues with 40k and its novels is that some of the latter try to push something into reality which I've always took to be obvious propaganda / hearsay / legend. I always thought that GW's own narrative style in its books sometimes delivered fluff in analytical manner and sometimes in exaggeration. Like, do you really believe people going blind because they saw the Emperor? Suuuuure ... that's what the old texts say, after all ...

Void__Dragon wrote:To demonstrate an example I posted... Argel Tal, despite his prowess, and despite knowing that betraying the Imperium is wrong, and the ugly truth of Chaos, hell, despite growing to resent and loathe Lorgar, his Primarch, is ultimately unable to turn his back on Lorgar, despite not wanting to go through with Lorgar's designs. That is a weakness, he is loyal to a self-destructive extent.

I suppose that depends on how that weakness is perceived. I don't know this particular story, so I cannot say whether or not it can be redeemed this way. In my experience, most of these supposed weaknesses are more or less just an alibi to make characters appear somewhat less two-dimensional, even though "invincible god of war #0815" is still the most important part of their description.

I mean, look at the Space Wolves. Their fans point towards the wolf mutations as their "flaw". But is it truly a flaw when that's exactly what so many of their fans also think is "cool"? That's like saying vampires having to suck blood is a weakness. Sure, in some way it is, but at the same time it is what makes them popular. That's not how weaknesses work as far as "narrative balance" is concerned. Which is why not everyone who liked Dracula likes Twilight.

Void__Dragon wrote:In the case of the Eternals, to be fair, they are basically the Cthulhus/Chaos Gods of Doctor Who.

Still not feeling compared to take a closer look at this series. From all I've heard, it just seems so ... random and disjointed.

 Lynata wrote:

Galdos wrote:Second, it fails to match up with any source of canon on the Halos. Try getting through the Halos on hard without ever taking armor damage, its near impossible because the enemy does so much damage per shot (on legendary 3 shots from a Plasma Rifle caused armor damage) yet the Master Chief in the books RARELY even completely loses his shield. In the books he can take 3 hits from a Fuel Rod and still be standing.

Has there even been an official statement from the owners of the IP regarding any supposed canonicity of the novels?

I know this is a fairly tricky subject. Many people just assume that anything published under a label is "all canon", but as franchises such as Star Trek or 40k show us, that must not always be the case.
And even where a company has stated this would be the case ... just look at the Mass Effect: Deception debacle.

Details such as "what does it take to lose the shield" are fairly open to story necessities. If a writer does not feel the character should require medical aid soon, it may simply regarded as prudent to make sure he never gets wounded in the first place. Until the story calls for it.

The novels, short films (minus some of the cartoons), commercials and the ARG (Alternate Reality Game) are all considered canon (the ARG wasn't for a while since it involved a time-travelling fragment of an AI, but one of the creators loved it and made it in to official canon). There are a few fluff snafus right now because the Fall of Reach novel is still considered canon even though it and the game don't agree on the length of the invasion. But the game is a timeline retcon of the Fall of Reach which stretches the invasion out to a month or two rather than a few days (a good improvement in my eyes).

I figure if we are looking for canon damage values then it would be best to go with Multiplayer damage levels (especially now that MP is considered part of the canon, as a training simulator for Spartan IV's). This paints even mass-market Mjolnir suits as pretty damn tough (and really damn versatile as well). But like most fictional things it isn't talked about any more than exactly how tough SM power armour really is. FW often publishes numbers that make things suck, BL often has things working as narratives require and rules apparently don't represent how things go down in the fluff but are made "gameable" because no one wants to play 6-man movie marine armies.

Hard number and fiction seldom mix well (and often end up looking silly down the line when people give them a look).

But yes, Halo secondary media is part of the canon and get to add their inconsistencies to the rest as normal.

Ronin_eX wrote:But like most fictional things it isn't talked about any more than exactly how tough SM power armour really is. FW often publishes numbers that make things suck, BL often has things working as narratives require and rules apparently don't represent how things go down in the fluff but are made "gameable" because no one wants to play 6-man movie marine armies.

On a sidenote, Marine power armour received a fairly extensive fluff description (an entire page) in the old Codex: Angels of Death, and interestingly the percentage given for prevention of injuries from the "most common small arms" fits to what happens when you roll the dice for an Imperial Guardsman's lasgun in the tabletop or in GW's Inquisitor RPG. I don't know exactly where the "lasguns can't harm PA" stuff comes from, but it's not GW. The studio agreed, however, that the game's rather neutral rules are too limiting for epic storytelling, which is (if you listen to this interview of Dan Abnett) why Black Library was created as a separate division, essentially creating a clear barrier between the game's own fluff and the various things you get to read in other books.

As for nobody wanting to play Movie Marines ... you'd be surprised at how many people think that this is how Space Marines are "supposed to be" - even though the article itself makes it clear right in the introduction that the entire thing is a reality-defying exaggeration intended to depict Space Marines as Hollywood would do it.

Kind of like some of the novels, when you think about it.

Thanks for the clarification on the other franchise, by the way. Seems like the Halo franchise runs similar to BioWare's Mass Effect and Dragon Age, then, at least for the time being. Blizzard has just recently publicly rescinded their "our P&P RPG is canon" decree. For what it's worth, I think that one actually depicted a more interesting and consistent world than what Azeroth looks like now.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
There are a few fluff snafus right now because the Fall of Reach novel is still considered canon even though it and the game don't agree on the length of the invasion

There's a lot of things the game and book don't agree on. One of the major plot points of Glasslands was that Halsey was surprised and upset at the existence of the SIII's, yet she was aware of and talking to Noble team during the Reach campaign.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
There are a few fluff snafus right now because the Fall of Reach novel is still considered canon even though it and the game don't agree on the length of the invasion

There's a lot of things the game and book don't agree on. One of the major plot points of Glasslands was that Halsey was surprised and upset at the existence of the SIII's, yet she was aware of and talking to Noble team during the Reach campaign.

Ya Reach actually makes 0 sense in the Halo series. If you accept Reach than you have to ignore every single Halo book there is and even Halo 4. (Every book refrence the last and Halo 4 has many refrences to the Kilo 5 trilogy)

However contrary to your hard vs normal mode argument. Please go the menu for the diffuculties in the halo games. Heroic is hard mode not legendary which would be very hard mode. It states that "This is the way Halo was meant to be played" this could be taken multiple ways. For instance you could take this as this is how the game is meant to be played enjoyably. However it could also take this is how it would actually be for a Spartan. I think the latter or else they would have made this the normal mode as to encourage most people to play it.

Hence why i said I believe. You are correct it can be taken different races. Im going to go off a mix of the name and the fact that the game simply seems to match up better with the books.

Lol you guys are still debating?

Even if SPARTANS are able to be equal with tactical I seriously doubt that they woudl be able to fight Assault Marines or Sternguard and Veterans, never mind Terminators.

Or are you guys suggesting that SPARTANS can beat Terminators in combat?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Lol you guys are still debating?

Even if SPARTANS are able to be equal with tactical I seriously doubt that they woudl be able to fight Assault Marines or Sternguard and Veterans, never mind Terminators.

Or are you guys suggesting that SPARTANS can beat Terminators in combat?

There's no such thing as a Terminator, relatively speaking.

Just a Space Marine in Terminator armor.

And since the discussion is X v. Y, sans armor and weapons, your entire post is null.

Try reading the question, next time.