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I've been playing with Chaos Marines for years now, and the new codex has come out a while back. But I haven't had a chance to get it.

Before I upgrade and take the plunge. I just what to get the feel of the new army, and maybe take a minute before I commit to it.

Can someone help give me the pros and cons of the new Chaos, a run down of some of the new models and how older models have changed.
Just the basic strenghts and weakness.

6 pages of good discussion here.

Another 3 pages of good review here.

Well, to be honest it isn't really like you have to make a decision on whether or not to use the new codex. You have to. Once the new Chaos Space Marine codex was released the old one became obsolete. It is"illegal" to play a game with an army built from the previous codex (not that many people would refuse to play against you using the old one).

If you want an instant win army, look elsewhere. If you want a BALANCED codex, Chaos is still awesome. The book itself is beautiful and I love it, but $50 is a bit steep.

Also, even though it's upper-middle tier (IMO), you can get some fuuuun toys. Daemon Prince with Black Mace? Heldrake with Baleflamer? DINO DESCTRUCTO BOTS? Fun, fun stuff. The Warpsmith is fun too, especially if you can get him close enough to a vehicle with a high output of dakka and pop off his curse ability and watch the tank either melt under its own fire or be effectively neutered for a turn.
New psychic powers are fun stuff too, and since you can take a spell familiar, you don't have to worry about perils of the warp nearly as much.
Basic CSM got a price drop at the cost of LD, but make up for it as the extra points can be used to grab a mark (which are all awesome) or take a CCW for 2 attacks base. Upgrades are more expensive than the Loyalists, you lose ATSKNF/have to purchase an icon for Fearless, and have to keep them in large blobs because you don't have Combat Squads. However, the Metal Bawkzes are awesome now. A S5 missile launcher that can reroll? The ability to take two combibolters AND a combiweapon? Daemonic possession? Fun stuff.
Personally, however, the best update is that you can now take Cultists. Just as you might expect, they're basically just big meat shields that can be taken in squads/blobs of up to 35, and can be upgraded to have a heavy stubber or flamer for every 10. Oh, and they're only 4 points a pop for an autopistol and CCW, or 5 for an autorifle. Not nearly as many upgrades as, say, an IG squad, but they're best if you just run up and sit down on an objective to get a cover save, since just about everything will punch through your 6+ armor and T3 (however they can take Mark of Nurgle for T4, which helps). If you take Typhus (and honestly, why wouldn't you?) you can turn them into plague zombies, which removes their ranged attacks but gives them FNP and Fearless.
Which reminds me. Nurgle bikers are now a flat T6, not T4(6), so they cannot be double toughed (if for any reason they end up with more than one wound or FNP). Monsters, I tell you.

Sorry if that ended up being a bit rambly, I'm just going off on what I can rememer as I don't have the codex with me right now. Basically, they're still a fun army but they're not as instant win as GK or Necrons.

Edit: Oh, one more thing. Almost all units automatically have a Champion, and the Champion MUST issue or accept a challenge in an assault. This can lead to a situation where a terminator champ is forced to face off against a Tervigon by himself while his buddies just stand around with their thumbs up their nurgleholes (speaking from experience) or a cultist champion smack talking a Deathwing sergeant and somehow managing to beat him to death with the pointy stick he found on the ground (Wait, what?). Fortunately, killing the character lets you roll on the Chaos Boon table, which can range from things like getting a special rule, +1 to a profile stat, or turning into a Daemon Prince or chaos spawn, the latter of which aren't actually terrible any more because they move 12".

If you want a BALANCED codex

Internally balanced *maybe*. Externally balanced? Nope. Not even close.

Kronk's links are the best way to go and you should really go through them, but a basic summary in no particular order:

Internally the book is very nuanced. Lots of units that are only slightly different from one another
Several "new" units that rely on outdated mechanics (or mechanics that don't even exist anymore)
cheap base troops that can quickly get more expensive than they are worth if you aren't careful about your upgrades
Heldrake is fantastic
Several rules within the codex that actively punish you for playing using it (Champions of Chaos rule mentioned above is a good example)
Terrible vehicle selection with a lot of WTF type selections
No reliable way to deep strike
No easy way to get into CC
You CAN build some fluffy lists
Most lists you will get from this book will tend to be one trick pony type lists
A lot of the issues we have had for several editions now have still not been fixed
Access to some cheap but effective HQ's

Here we go again....

I wish the Spawn had the Daemon special rule. I'd really love to run some Tzeentch Spawn Daemon hordes across the table!

The two books are actually fairly similar; the new one added a few new units and some organizational changes (no more Tzeentch Sorcerers leading an army of Berzerkers), but it still plays much the same.

HQs are very good
Fast attack is very good (especially bikers and helldrakes)
Heavy is very good (oblits, autocannon havocs, dinos)

Troops are decent. Basic marines have a lot of options, but they can get pricey.

Elites I find underwhelming, but I haven't many larger games. I find myself using up too many points in Heavy and Fast.

If you had an old list, a Helldrake or 2 may be the only purchases you need to make.

Tycho wrote:

If you want a BALANCED codex

Internally balanced *maybe*. Externally balanced? Nope. Not even close.

Well, the problem is if you compare it to Necrons or Space Wolves. Those are unbalanced as well, but on the other side of the scale. The Chaos dex isn't fantabulistical, but it's a good, solid codex.

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Well, to be honest it isn't really like you have to make a decision on whether or not to use the new codex. You have to. Once the new Chaos Space Marine codex was released the old one became obsolete. It is"illegal" to play a game with an army built from the previous codex (not that many people would refuse to play against you using the old one).

I have to disagree with you. Every supplement, every rulebook. even every model, is an agreed upon activity. There is nothing wrong with choosing to play an older version of 40k, so long as you don't intend to enter events that use a different version than you choose to play. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with using an older codex. If my opponent wanted to use an older codex, that is fine, as long as their intentions are just and reasonable (ie. not just to win). If a player cannot afford $60 for a new rulebook so they can keep using the army they have spent hundreds more on, that's fine. The point is that such use of rules needs to be agreed upon. This usually isn't an issue, since most people play the most current version of the game.

That said, I think avoiding the new codex is short changing yourself. It is far more versatile than the previous one, and gives players more options for playing certain kinds of armies. For example, you can now actually play a Khorne marked army, instead of just taking 6 units of Khorne Berserkers and an HQ. Likewise, I can build a melee-centred Slaanesh army (hello, Initiative 5) that is completely devoid of Noise Marine weapons that restrict movement and do not complement the benefits of the Mark.

Right... as the guy said earlier... here we go again, actually I'm going to post something optomistic about this book.

yes there's a lot that we wanted and never got, but... we did get a new book. If you know what you're up against (bounce games), you'll do OK. But lords are kinda crap now. If you want to do well, take Kharne. Or abbadon. the only HQs worth taking.

lots of units got nerfed. But we have such an old army that you have tonnes of choices. Bikers, Heldrake, even spawn = awesome now. Unsurprisingly the new expensive figures are quite good, hence why we have to go out and buy them.

However.... Apocalypse sized games, is where the codex comes to the fore. You have the points to spend the extra needed to make everything as good as it could be. T5 Standard marines and Termies. Heck you can even afford to take your defilers and Deamon Princes, (which got screwed points wize). I'm looking forward to seeing what the Dark Angels get in their codex to really say whether it's "balanced" or not. I've definitely found some fun armies. But.. I still feel forced to "gun line" it... If they'd only given us drop pods. Especially now since Dreadclaws have been redacted from the FW website....

Buy the book. You've already spent the money on the figures. Our hobby demands that you keep spending until you or GW say you've had enough.

It's not called plastic crack for nothing.

G

Quick Q:

Is an all Slannesh marine list viable, I've been tinkering with one but cant seem to get it to work:
I'd ally some daemons but would rather a pure CSM list

Any ideas are welcome or alternatives - I'd prefer to try and stay mono themed but would welcome some sort of Alpha Legion (generics) amongst it.

Are certain builds much stronger in the 6th ed Codex (Nurgle/Khorne - as it always was)?

I've always though that Slaanesh were slightly nerfed when it came to the power level side of things. +1 initiative is nothing compared to +!T & FnP. Even when you take sonic blasters. If they'd left them with their knives and had SBs as Assault weapons, fine. But Salvo just screws them unless you're going up against a lot of horde. Unless you're talking Termies, which again the power axe being he only AP2 PW, is I1, wastes any MoS... Pretty specific. If you're going up against Marines, it's good. Also salvo units of 6work well (But then hardly worth taking as troops).

Zerkers IMHO are not worth it now, when standard CSM get everything other than WS5 (Chainaxes are only worth it against specific Xenos). So stick with MoK and keep your bolters I think.

The only Mono list that seems worth it is Nurgle tbh...

I'm trying to go mono-Night Lords, but ever since the previous codex hit, they kinda want you to go undevidex/non-mono.

Have yet to test out Deamon allies yet though. But there is some cheese out there that makes Deamons + Nurgle decent. And allegedly Slaanesh screamers are ace.

G

Agreed G, I've looked at simlar builds.
The Slannesh "bonus" army wide just seems meh - especially with cover rules and VS high I units.
High points and 1-2 per unit "super weapons" just seem to pale VS 5-6 LongFangs or even a well built Havok squad.

Mono seems Nurgl-ish?
I still think a mono Khrone list could work well but it would be VERY small and elite?

Tough call for the prince of pleasure :(

 Ratius wrote:
Agreed G, I've looked at simlar builds.
The Slannesh "bonus" army wide just seems meh - especially with cover rules and VS high I units.
High points and 1-2 per unit "super weapons" just seem to pale VS 5-6 LongFangs or even a well built Havok squad.

Mono seems Nurgl-ish?
I still think a mono Khrone list could work well but it would be VERY small and elite?

Tough call for the prince of pleasure :(

As someone who plays mono-Slaanesh..Don't take cult troops, disappointing, but true. It's not worth it, if you need a cult troop take Nurgle. Take Slaanesh marked CSM and thats it if you want to run mono-slaanesh.

I have been playing with the new dex since it came out and my Iron warriors have yet to lose a game.

Is it overpowered like necrons no, its mid tier but used properly it can win against any army in friendly play, of course in a tournament it'll be easier to go GK or Necrons.

Can you post a list hobo?

What points do you play at?

Cheesedoodler wrote:
It is"illegal" to play a game with an army built from the previous codex

I may have a game with the old previous codex tonight and see who comes to arrest me

 xSPYXEx wrote:
If you want an instant win army, look elsewhere. If you want a BALANCED codex, Chaos is still awesome. The book itself is beautiful and I love it, but $50 is a bit steep.

The codex isn't even really that well balanced. The internal balance is so-so at best. It's just a copy-pasted 4th edition codex with some 6th edition USR's tacked on. Not worth the cost.

Also, even though it's upper-middle tier (IMO), you can get some fuuuun toys. Daemon Prince with Black Mace? Heldrake with Baleflamer? DINO DESCTRUCTO BOTS? Fun, fun stuff. The Warpsmith is fun too, especially if you can get him close enough to a vehicle with a high output of dakka and pop off his curse ability and watch the tank either melt under its own fire or be effectively neutered for a turn.
New psychic powers are fun stuff too, and since you can take a spell familiar, you don't have to worry about perils of the warp nearly as much.

Too bad the Daemon Prince can now suffer from instant death and the Dino bots are gimmicky and suck. The Warpsmith is overpriced and also incredibly gimmicky.

Also the Chaos Psychic powers are objectively pretty terrible (Especially Tzeentch but he once again got a raw deal in this book).

Basic CSM got a price drop at the cost of LD, but make up for it as the extra points can be used to grab a mark (which are all awesome) or take a CCW for 2 attacks base. Upgrades are more expensive than the Loyalists, you lose ATSKNF/have to purchase an icon for Fearless, and have to keep them in large blobs because you don't have Combat Squads. However, the Metal Bawkzes are awesome now. A S5 missile launcher that can reroll? The ability to take two combibolters AND a combiweapon? Daemonic possession? Fun stuff.

No, the marks are not all awesome, especially Khorne and Tzeentch which both got inexplicably worse.
Also the Rhinos always had the options for the havoc launcher so that's nothing new.

Personally, however, the best update is that you can now take Cultists. Just as you might expect, they're basically just big meat shields that can be taken in squads/blobs of up to 35, and can be upgraded to have a heavy stubber or flamer for every 10. Oh, and they're only 4 points a pop for an autopistol and CCW, or 5 for an autorifle. Not nearly as many upgrades as, say, an IG squad, but they're best if you just run up and sit down on an objective to get a cover save, since just about everything will punch through your 6+ armor and T3 (however they can take Mark of Nurgle for T4, which helps). If you take Typhus (and honestly, why wouldn't you?) you can turn them into plague zombies, which removes their ranged attacks but gives them FNP and Fearless.
Which reminds me. Nurgle bikers are now a flat T6, not T4(6), so they cannot be double toughed (if for any reason they end up with more than one wound or FNP). Monsters, I tell you.

Yep, this sure is Codex: Nurgle or Go Home.

Basically OP what you need to realize is that if you aren't doing FNP Slaanesh or Nurgle Marines, you should just play another army.

Sorry if that ended up being a bit rambly, I'm just going off on what I can rememer as I don't have the codex with me right now. Basically, they're still a fun army but they're not as instant win as GK or Necrons.

Edit: Oh, one more thing. Almost all units automatically have a Champion, and the Champion MUST issue or accept a challenge in an assault. This can lead to a situation where a terminator champ is forced to face off against a Tervigon by himself while his buddies just stand around with their thumbs up their nurgleholes (speaking from experience) or a cultist champion smack talking a Deathwing sergeant and somehow managing to beat him to death with the pointy stick he found on the ground (Wait, what?). Fortunately, killing the character lets you roll on the Chaos Boon table, which can range from things like getting a special rule, +1 to a profile stat, or turning into a Daemon Prince or chaos spawn, the latter of which aren't actually terrible any more because they move 12".

Another stupid part about this book as well, thank you for noting it. Have fun being forced to challenge a TH/SS terminator sergeant with your Marine champions and getting wrecked.