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I'm brand spankin new to Warhammer 40k as a table top game. I've been playing the PC games forever and I've been reading the novels for years. I've just never been in a position to play the game. However, that has now changed. I purchased the box set this weekend and I have started building the Chaos and Space Marines that it contained with a buddy of mine. We are going to learn it together with these two armies. He fancies playing Chaos so once we get the hang of the rules he will be using the Chaos army that it comes with along with the using the Space Marines to convert into Chaos marines.

My first question is this;
What is the most effective "small" army to build? By small army, I mean an Army that consists of high point figs, reducing the size of the the Army, but still maintaining effectiveness against a broad range of other armies. (I know that no one army is best, I'm just looking at a viable army that can be maid with fewer ammounts of figures.)

Second question;
For a beginner, which "horde" army would be best to learn with? I know that running a horde army isn't probably the best bet for a new player, but the Ork and Tyranid armies really strike my fancy. I would love to butch up an Ork army or theme a Tyranid army to look like they are straight out of the "Alien" movies.

That is all, thanks for reading!
Widj

First off, welcome to 40k!

High point figures are generally going to be marine armies. Grey Knights seem to be able to field the lowest number of models on the field but still be very competitive. Space Wolves are another option too but will field a few more units than Grey Knights. This could all change in a week since the new Dark Angels are about to come out. Depending on how their codex looks, they could be your new number 1 option with either a Deathwing (all terminators) or Ravenwing (all bikes and speeders) army. Wait until the Dark Angel codex comes out before you jump on this option.

As a Tyranid player, I would say Orks are an easier army to learn and be good with. Ork abilities are simple and can be very powerful. Orks are also very fun to play with and have a lot of goofy, silly abilities. Tyranids can be fun to paint, build, and play but they are more challenging to get good with. Honestly I would suggest Orks if you wanted to go this option.

A horde army isn't a bad option for beginners, the main problem is that they are very time consuming to build and paint. It can be very overwhelming when you are first starting and learning.

I hope that helps some.

High Point, low model:

Grey Knights. You can run Paladins or Purifiers; both are quite low model-count, very fun, and very tabletop-competitive.

Deathwing (Dark Angels). We don't know specifics of the new codex, but it will be excellent, and very competitive. Not to mention as new as you are; will be fun to learn on.

Horde:

Orks. Fun, many different playstyles, reasonably competitive.

Imperial Guard. Fun, many different playstyles, incredibly competitive.

Agree with what everyone has said above but will add my 2 cents.
Loganwing is another army that starts really small and can get bigger later. This is a Space Wolves army lead by a special character Logan Grimnar. He makes Wolf Guard troop choices, and Wolf Guard can be given terminator armour. This means the Space Wolves can be set up in a similar all terminator style to Deathwing (Dark Angels) and then be expanded at a later date to include things like 'normal' marines and Thunderwolf Cavalry and so forth.
Space Wolves are also considered one of the stronger armies to play currently.

Welcome to 40k and welcome to dakka!

Any sort of marine type army is generally going to be high in points whilst being low model count, and there are some mentions of the specific flavours of marines above.

Orks are run as heck to play, especially if you actually yell out your WAAAGH to your opponent! As an army they have their good and bad areas but generally speaking the Ork army is quite tough. Sadly I can’t speak much of the Nid’s as no one in our group plays them.

I've just been informed that a lot of the codices are from older editions and whatever army I chose, I should look into one of the ones that have a codex from the current edition. It looks like that is only Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels.

Does this make sense to you all? It would actually work out well. I could do Dark Angels when the book comes out while my buddy does Chaos Space Marines.

Though, Tyranids still keeps drawing me to them.

Thanks for the advice so far everyone, I greatly appreciate it!

I think DA is a great place to start mate! They have the newest codex and TBH you will see a SLEW of threads here as people (users and opponents alike) come to grips with their changes and how it fits in with the new 6th ed. Grab some dice and have some fun!

Can't speak for an elite army as I don't really play one, but horde orks is a very strong build. You basically max out boyz and lootas and take a couple of Kustom Forcefield Meks and you're set. They're an incredibly fun army to model and paint, and they scale really well even at low points levels, which means that if you start out with low points games, orks can still bring the pain quite easily. They would be my number one choice if I was to try and get into a horde army all over again and want it to be capable of super competitve play.

No idea about nids, can't speak on them.

As for the third choice when it comes to horde, that would be the Imperial Guard, which is the main codex theCaptain and I play. If you're not familiar with them, they're basically the modern day military, but in 40k. Massed infantry, tanks, and air superiority fighters. You can run a massed infantry list, and have good success with it, it just takes a bit more practice and skill, making it hard to learn the game with. Unlike the ork army, IG will also require far more specialist purchases (massive amounts of special weapons for example) so it's much harder to get a solid army going initially.

But the biggest thing to impact your choice should be which army appeals to you the most visually. Codexes come and go, changing up the dynamic completely. IG is awesome right now, but our next codex could make us trash. Orks are very well balanced right now, but could become the mother of all cheese with the new codex. Just pick what's cool to you and you'll figure out a way to make it work from there.

How committed are you to playing the other army (dark angels) from the box set?

If the answer is "very", then your best bet for a low-model-count army is a dark angels deathwing, as has been mentioned. More broadly any "wing" army (army that can take terminators as troops choices, like GK, or SW) will do.

If you want to do a horde army, then imperial guard is for you. You get the most infantry with the most options. You have tons of heavy and special weapons options for guard infantry which means that you can do practically anything with them. Probably the second best is orks, just because they have a lot of infantry options. I'm not 100% on tyranid, though, as their two strongest horde options (genestealers and hormagaunts), have been killed off by succeeding rules editions.

As for which army you should choose in general, I'll give my generic advice:

You should start by looking at aesthetics.

Look at the army, and decide what kind of minis you like. You will likely be spending a lot of time painting them, and you're going to have to look at them every time they play. If you think that ork models look silly, then don't play orks, or if you like anime, then perhaps a tau army is for you.

Read some fluff about the armies you like the miniatures of. The rulebook gives a bit, but I'd go to a local game store and just sit down and read the front part of every codex. If you explain to any store worker who might complain that you're researching starting a new 40k army, they'll shut up immediately.

The background to the different armies can be very, very different, from the ultra-elite loyalist demon army of grey knights to the green, scottish hooligans in space of the orks. Some of the dry british humor and general grimdark has a lot of flavor to it. Find something you can really get your imagination behind.

Thirdly, once you've done this, consider play styles. Do you want an army of heroes that beats face and dies epically? Do you want an army of all vehicles trundling across the plain? Do you just want something that gets in there and rips your opponent's stuff in half with their bare hands and chainsaw swords? Many different codices can do many different styles, but if there's something in specific you want, that might help narrow things down for you.

Once you get to this point, you'll probably be down to just a few armies to pick from. Once here, you should look at some examples of lists that people bring, and see if there are some commonly-used units that look exciting to you.

At some point, though, you're just going to have to take the plunge.

Once you do, the first thing to do is get the codex (and the rulebook if you don't have one), and spend a lot of time getting very familiar with the rules. Buy a box or two of your basic infantry along with any other hobby stuff you're currently lacking and start getting a feel for assembling, converting, and painting the miniatures (including getting a color scheme you like). Once you have a basic two troops and HQ, along with an understanding of the rules, you might perhaps want to play a few trainer games at a local store or gaming group. It shouldn't be too hard to find someone to show you the ropes.

From there, it really depends. You'll want to expand your army in different ways, given different tastes and different experiences. Perhaps you'll find some second hand models from friends or the internet, or you'll start getting into bitz ordering and scratchbuilding. You might fully explore the entirety of what your codex has to offer, or start a second army when you feel you're done with the first one. Where you go from there is up to you.

If I get this wrong, sue me never faced one but they seem fairly ok, gretchin as a troop choice?

Their BS is higher than an Ork, so I think most people plug them in to an ADL with a gun or use them as fodder to shield more important models. Other than that I'd say they are a very cheap scoring unit which makes it *possible* to leave back field and sit on objectives... Just... leave them with some support, not all alone. Poor little buggers...

I would say that you shouldn't get Ward codices (GK and BA come to mind). They offer incredible short term competitiveness (actually brokenness (yes, I invented a new word)) but are sort of un-involved, meaning you just pump out Dreadknights, shooty Dreadnoughts w/Psybolt, Stormravens, Psycannons, Paladins w/Draigo or Purifiers w/Crowe, march toward the enemy and ask him if he can destroy your army before you get close (or in the case of psycannon spam, you don't even need to do that) and curb-stomp him because your army is "better". If you're fine with such an unimaginative army and you don't care about being hated by anyone who doesn't play GK, feel free to collect them. Vanilla SM. SW, BA and pretty much every Marine codex are less of a hate-object, so you may go for them. Eldar also have low model counts but are really nightmarish armies to start with, so ignore them.
The classical horde armies are Nids for CC & psychic powers, Orks for balanced play and IG for ranged. Nids are usually considered the least competitive of the three, due to a lack of flexibility. Orks are OK but not the highest tier, while the Guard is up there with the best while actually requiring some tactics (unlike GK). That said, you can also delve into horde-style play in other armies, such as Chaos Cultist spam or the GK Inquisitorial Henchmen/Coteaz/Assassins route (although it's not a true horde).
If you're not sure whether you want a horde or an elite army, I would recommend getting an army that can do both, such as CSM. I started 40k with them and never regretted it, and their recent codex update wasn't too bad, even if it didn't meet all the expectations. You have a ton of options; you can go with hordes of cultists (or even make a 41st millennium zombie apocalypse if you bring Typhus), be very effective with Daemon allies, being AP3 Torrent flamers on Heldrakes to clean the field of MEQ, Get fire support and even CC out of Daemon Engines, pick from some really cool cult troops (avoid Zerkers in this edition; Noise Marines are good, Plague Marines are very competitive, Thousand Sons are OK), get access to fairly high Leadership and a lot of Fearless units as well as most Space Marine tanks. Best army to learn the game IMO, without being too cheesy, and it allows you to develop along any direction you want.

Well, as a noob, the best way to start 40k is to play a Space Marine army. Not a specific chapter like BA, SW, DA, BT or GK, just Ultramarines or vanilla as we say.
This army has a lot of options and all kinds of builds can be made strong and competitive. After you managed to play vanilla Marines, you could go for an elite or horde army. Experience tells me that you shouldn't do this in the first place. Such armies have lots of gimmicks which are not easy to cope with as a new player.

Hedkrakka wrote:I would say that you shouldn't get Ward codices... Vanilla SM... are less of a hate-object

Wait, who wrote the current vanilla SM codex?

Oh...

 Ailaros wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:I would say that you shouldn't get Ward codices... Vanilla SM... are less of a hate-object

Wait, who wrote the current vanilla SM codex?

Oh...

Ward himself, but it was before he descended into insanity and started coming up with Ferrari codices without brakes, so I made an exception.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA are also a hate object, but nothing compares to GK, you know.

The whole discussion of hatred of Ward and his codices is not really helpful. Have fun playing 40k.

 Ailaros wrote:

As for which army you should choose in general, I'll give my generic advice:

You should start by looking at aesthetics.

Look at the army, and decide what kind of minis you like. You will likely be spending a lot of time painting them, and you're going to have to look at them every time they play. If you think that ork models look silly, then don't play orks, or if you like anime, then perhaps a tau army is for you.

That bit of advice is why I keep coming back to Tyranids. I've read enough to know that they aren't very competetive supposedly, they are hard to play well, and expensive to build as an army. However, they have the color that I enjoy most and I love the looks of their figures. Which is why I'm also looking at a low figure count army to try as well. That way I can slowly build up a tyranid army after I make the initial purchase of a small complete army to learn with.

Tyranid, from what I can tell so far, are mostly an up close and personal army. Get in and rip gak apart. So I was figuring another such army would be good to at least learn about engaging in h2h, which is why I was thinking Grey Knights. However, I'm not opposed to trying out a small shooty army. I enjoy the thought of fielding a small army of terminators with massive weapons laying down fire across the line. lol

Thanks for all the suggestions so far folks, I greatly apreciate them!

Though originally broadcast for 5th Ed these are still relevant. Might I recommend:

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=1457

And

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=1460

Widjit wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

As for which army you should choose in general, I'll give my generic advice:

You should start by looking at aesthetics.

Look at the army, and decide what kind of minis you like. You will likely be spending a lot of time painting them, and you're going to have to look at them every time they play. If you think that ork models look silly, then don't play orks, or if you like anime, then perhaps a tau army is for you.

That bit of advice is why I keep coming back to Tyranids. I've read enough to know that they aren't very competetive supposedly, they are hard to play well, and expensive to build as an army. However, they have the color that I enjoy most and I love the looks of their figures. Which is why I'm also looking at a low figure count army to try as well. That way I can slowly build up a tyranid army after I make the initial purchase of a small complete army to learn with.

Tyranid, from what I can tell so far, are mostly an up close and personal army. Get in and rip gak apart. So I was figuring another such army would be good to at least learn about engaging in h2h, which is why I was thinking Grey Knights. However, I'm not opposed to trying out a small shooty army. I enjoy the thought of fielding a small army of terminators with massive weapons laying down fire across the line. lol

Thanks for all the suggestions so far folks, I greatly apreciate them!

Hmm. If you have such an affinity for Nids, you definitely should get them. If you hate your army later, all the money you spent on the other stuff will be wasted. GK are NOT a good place to start if you want to become a Nid player eventually, because:

1-They have insane armor, so they don't need to hug cover like Nids do.
2-They have a lot of dakka with Psycannons and a lot of high strength shots with Psybolts, which Nids can't muster.
3-Due to the "superiority" I was talking about, their units are powerhouses by themselves, while Nid units depend on each other.
4-Force weapons, rad grenades, melta weapons, frag/krak grenades, hammerhand, plasma syphons, bla bla bla. If you get used to that, you'll find the Nids' abilities (mainly psychic defense and disabling enemies) wanting later.

That said, Tyranids aren't as difficult to play as their reputation simply because you don't have a lot of choice. The difficulty comes from not being very survivable and generally lacking in invulnerable saves/grenades rather than any tactical tendency for error propagation. With the exception of Synapse Creatures and Genestealers, Nid units are unable to operate independently, meaning the army moves as a solid block, and it's about advancing while hugging cover as much as possible, trying to avoid ID on multiwound models and hopefully decisively crashing into the enemy line. You also don't have a lot of choice for most roles, due to most units being overpriced. As such, you'll want Hive Guard to deal with transports (one of the biggest problems for Nids is reliably opening cans before going om nom nom on whatever's inside) etc. Once you select what troops you want to use, the rest of the army and the play style are pretty much fixed. Termagants lead to Tervigon spam, Hormagaunts get toxin and movement buffs but require aid from MCs and most importantly Venomthropes for mobile cover, Genestealers got hit pretty hard by 6th disallowing come-on-and-charge, but are still one of the best CC units around, Warriors are versatile, tough and bring Synapse but have an ID and cost problem, and so on. List writing is straightforward as a result; if you are careful with your tactics, and play to your army's strengths while knowing its limitations, you should do just fine.

Your posts seem to sound like you are leaning more towards nids. Orks are in my opinion easier to learn but if nids strike your fancy go with them. If you can get into it more you will enjoy it more. I would wait until the DA codex comes out and see just how broken it is, I'm expecting very. The sons of Russ are never a bad option by any means.

Also, Welcome to the world or warhammer. Sorry about your wallet.

I only play BA because they are Red, Just pick which one you think looks coolest and ride with it. Who cares what the forums say, or who is the most powerful. Its just a game, Have fun with your friends, make friends playing it, don't cheat, and remember....your probably not going to be paid for this so enjoy it. Its as easy as that.

Oh. And primer gray IS an army color too.

Instead of starting a new post, I thought I would just ask a few more questions in this one.

So, looking through the Orc codex, it seems that some of the figures from battle reports I've been watching aren't in them. Main examples being the Dakka Jet for the orks. My google-fu failed and finding a reason why.

Is there another book I need to be buying to find out more information for these other units? Thanks guys, you have all been a great help so far!

Ork flyer rules were introduced in White Dwarf.

tvih wrote:
Ork flyer rules were introduced in White Dwarf.

I'm not seeing a way to get back issues of the White Dwarf magazine, is there another place to get the rules?

Both Orks and Space Marines are great beginners armies. The only problem with Orks is the number of units you will need to field a decent sized force is higher, and therefore a greater investment. Both are very forgiving of mistakes compared to other armies.

Widjit wrote:
I've just been informed that a lot of the codices are from older editions and whatever army I chose, I should look into one of the ones that have a codex from the current edition. It looks like that is only Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels.

Does this make sense to you all? It would actually work out well. I could do Dark Angels when the book comes out while my buddy does Chaos Space Marines.

Though, Tyranids still keeps drawing me to them.

Thanks for the advice so far everyone, I greatly appreciate it!

Given that there are only two new edition codecies and that heaven knows what the actual release schedule is going to be beyond this, I wouldn't worry about it in the least. The only real knowns were that it was highly likely that chaos and dark angels would get the first two since they were in Dark Vengance. Want an army then build it. For some books it could be years before there is a replacement codex and you could have been playing them for all that time instead of waiting.

'Nids are a really cool and fun army. The win at all costs players will tell you to avoid them because they aren't an uber-insta-awesome army to play and aren't overpowered at all. I loved my 'nid army and sadly sold it off. I like the concept so much, though, that I started collecting figs to make a new one after the most recent codex was released as there were some cool new critters there to play with.

The best advice you can get is to find an army that you like the minis of, since you will have to use and paint them, and that you WANT to play. Beyond that ignore the people telling you to avoid army X or Y. If it speaks to you then you will enjoy playing it. There is no point going with army Z just because the rules are thought to be better for it if you would rather be playing X or Y. That way leads to disappointment, unhappiness and generally not enjoying the game the way you want to enjoy it.

As for your original question, it is hard to pick a small model count force that will be able to effectively handle all comers. They are just too small to be fully adaptable to any situation that might present itself. Weapons that would do well against lots of hard targets would be less useful against hordes and vice versa. So you need to build your elite army the way you want it to play and just accept and know that in some battles it will likely be wiped out or overwhelmed. Just the nature of the beast. Of the horde armies you have IG, Orks and Tyranids. Go for IG if you want a lot of squishy infantry and a lot of armor. Orks are good for humor value, but have less than reliable gear compared to the guard. Finally go for the 'nids if a horde of screeching beasties ripping apart your enemies is what makes you happy.

Army choice is a very personal thing and my comments in the "best advice" paragraph above are really the most important to take into account. Welcome to the hobby!

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

The best advice you can get is to find an army that you like the minis of, since you will have to use and paint them, and that you WANT to play. Beyond that ignore the people telling you to avoid army X or Y. If it speaks to you then you will enjoy playing it. There is no point going with army Z just because the rules are thought to be better for it if you would rather be playing X or Y. That way leads to disappointment, unhappiness and generally not enjoying the game the way you want to enjoy it.

This was the advice I got, and I'm happy I took it. I've spent far more time cleaning, assembling, planning, scouring ebay - not to mention painting - than I have playing or putting together lists.

Theres also the option of the megaforces. they seem like a good deal to me

theyre OOP now though, arent they?

If I may put another army to the floor, one that could fulfil your 'small shooty army', I think Necrons might be an ok option.

Spoilered horn-blowing


Necrons are a quite forgiving army, at least thats what I found, mainly due to the fact they get back up after swallowing that Lascannon..

 cvtuttle wrote:
Though originally broadcast for 5th Ed these are still relevant. Might I recommend:

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=1457

And

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=1460

My buddy who got me started in the hobby referred me to these podcasts, and they were very informative and gave me a lot more to think about. I even took notes! Also, props for shameless plug