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I just wanted to hear from people what tactics they've been using to counter an Ork army which uses two large squads of Lootas and sticks them high up in ruins on either side of their army's deployment. They put out enough Str 7 shots on average that they do a good job of taking out anything AV 13 and below. I've tried anything from flyers to deepstriking next to them (and getting shot up most of the time by both squads before I can charge). Even if I do manage to charge one and tarpit/kill it, that leaves the other mob unmolested to keep firing still. Anything advancing on the board tends to get tarpitted by the tons of other boyz that are on the board, and I can't really think of much else to counter them with.

As a Chaos and GK player, I've looked into Heldrakes (36" move, with 12" Torrent) and Teleport Pack DKs with Heavy Incinerators before, but these typically die after a single turn of shooting. I don't know how expensive a single mob of lootas is, but will I be making back my points value at least if I chose to sacrifice a DK to flame them?

No. Lootas are 15ppm.

lootas are T4 with a 6+ save. You need to set up so they dont have much better than a 5+ cover save and use bolters, TFC, or ordinace.

If he is taking a defense line, then he will get a 4+ and you hope you have something that ignores cover like TFC

The OP listed ruins as a standard place they hide. The thing about lootas is that they can go to ground and not suffer a huge loss of effectiveness.

If they have an Aegis or Ruins, that means you are trying to dislodge T4 2+ cover models. It isn't going to happen without Ignores Cover.

 pretre wrote:
The OP listed ruins as a standard place they hide. The thing about lootas is that they can go to ground and not suffer a huge loss of effectiveness.

If they have an Aegis or Ruins, that means you are trying to dislodge T4 2+ cover models. It isn't going to happen without Ignores Cover.

that is true. Of course having cover removing stuff is always good in your army.

also if they gtg they must be 10 models or less (so they arent fearless). They also will half their fire power the next round.

The great thing about bolters is they are cheap, and often come in many different units. So you start off shooing a heavy bolter, or 5 long range shots at the lootas. Does he GTG? If he does, move on to the next target. If he doesnt GTG, shoot the lootas again with another heavy bolter

Focus fire on them until they fall to 7 dudes and have to check moral. That's always been the cue for my lootas to run off the damn table...

The problem with that theory is that lootas give up very little (compared to everyone else in the game) to g2g.

50% reduction in effectiveness for a 100% increase in survivability? Sure.

I find a squad of sternguard with their cover ignoring ammo works wonders in a drop pod agains loota mob. Also as mentioned the TFC is spectacular against them thanks to range and damage output.

Right, but how much does that Sternguard in a drop cost vs those Lootas. Is it worth it?

 pretre wrote:
Right, but how much does that Sternguard in a drop cost vs those Lootas. Is it worth it?

Depends on what you're trying to protect from the Lootas!

Exergy wrote:
also if they gtg they must be 10 models or less (so they arent fearless). They also will half their fire power the next round.

The great thing about bolters is they are cheap, and often come in many different units. So you start off shooing a heavy bolter, or 5 long range shots at the lootas. Does he GTG? If he does, move on to the next target. If he doesnt GTG, shoot the lootas again with another heavy bolter

I'm mostly unfamiliar with Ork armies, but I'm assuming that this is due to the Mob Rule which gives them Fearless when X number of models are around. What's the specific ruling for this? Is it within the unit or in the proximity?

My opponent today sat them at their max range way behind his army in ruins and had a wall of units between my deployment and his. I couldn't think of anyway to get to them save using the Stormravens I brought and so I couldn't kill them with weight of fire from my Grey Knights' bolt weapons - anything remotely close enough had other, more pressing concerns to shoot at. For future matches, I'd likely bring a DK with a Heavy Incinerator, but for 15pp loota, I really don't feel like it's worth it, since I'll likely only be able to flame 3 or 4 on one floor alone, and the rest will pew the DK to death.

I'm asking this topic as a general question, but specifically for Grey Knights and Chaos, we can't take Sternguard or Thunderfire Cannons.

pretre wrote:The problem with that theory is that lootas give up very little (compared to everyone else in the game) to g2g.

50% reduction in effectiveness for a 100% increase in survivability? Sure.

Exactly my problem. When I had my Stormravens shoot at him, he had them gtg to get 2+ cover save. Unfortunately for me, since he was already firing snap shots at my Stormraven, his effectiveness wasn't affected at all during the next turn of shooting.

@Enigwolf: The mob rules allows the units with the rule to take either their own leadership value (typically low) or the # of models currently in the squad as their LD, whichever is higher. Also, at 11 models, the unit becomes fearless.

 kronk wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Right, but how much does that Sternguard in a drop cost vs those Lootas. Is it worth it?

Depends on what you're trying to protect from the Lootas!

Also I don't expect my sternguard to "make their points back" I expect them to annihilate what I point them at which is usually the biggest threat to my army. And there isn't much that they don't annihilate the second they touch down. My stern squad cost 315 FYI. 10 guys, DP, 4 combi, 2 melta.

Chancetragedy wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Right, but how much does that Sternguard in a drop cost vs those Lootas. Is it worth it?

Depends on what you're trying to protect from the Lootas!

Also I don't expect my sternguard to "make their points back" I expect them to annihilate what I point them at which is usually the biggest threat to my army. And there isn't much that they don't annihilate the second they touch down. My stern squad cost 315 FYI. 10 guys, DP, 4 combi, 2 melta.

and they will likely be around to do more damage later

"making its points back" is a terrible metric

Chancetragedy wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Right, but how much does that Sternguard in a drop cost vs those Lootas. Is it worth it?

Depends on what you're trying to protect from the Lootas!

Also I don't expect my sternguard to "make their points back" I expect them to annihilate what I point them at which is usually the biggest threat to my army. And there isn't much that they don't annihilate the second they touch down. My stern squad cost 315 FYI. 10 guys, DP, 4 combi, 2 melta.

And if we make the assumption that the cost of the "Loota-Counter" does not outweigh the cost of damage it would do to the army, would our optimal solution be to just ignore them and let them inflict damage all the way?

 Enigwolf wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Right, but how much does that Sternguard in a drop cost vs those Lootas. Is it worth it?

Depends on what you're trying to protect from the Lootas!

Also I don't expect my sternguard to "make their points back" I expect them to annihilate what I point them at which is usually the biggest threat to my army. And there isn't much that they don't annihilate the second they touch down. My stern squad cost 315 FYI. 10 guys, DP, 4 combi, 2 melta.

And if we make the assumption that the cost of the "Loota-Counter" does not outweigh the cost of damage it would do to the army, would our optimal solution be to just ignore them and let them inflict damage all the way?

Probably. If depending on deployment I thought the loota wouldn't be able to deal great damage to me I'd absolutely ignore them. But if we're making assumptions. I'd assume that the lootas are parked I the middle of the board with good fire lines behind an aegis because that's what was brought up earlier. In that case I'd want them dead fast.

Exactly. Lootas do an excellent job of popping rhinos. If in the middle of the board and behind a wall, they can ruin your mobility.

I feel that midfield, they aren't too much of a problem since they become susceptible to assault by jump infantry and other fast-moving things like cavalry, beasts, etc.

The problem is that they have 48" of range and can basically hit at the same range as a lascannon would, and thus are dainty fine sitting at the back of the deployment zone.

Remember that if the loota squad numbers 11 or more they cannot go to ground and if they number less then you just have to kill a couple to force a leadership test. Drop pods with stern guard destroy my lootas or a drop pod/deepstrike that just has a flamer in it GK always deepstrike paladins near me as they will live through the fire to charge them. Land raiders with assault troops make them cry.

pepe5454 wrote:
Remember that if the loota squad numbers 11 or more they cannot go to ground and if they number less then you just have to kill a couple to force a leadership test. Drop pods with stern guard destroy my lootas or a drop pod/deepstrike that just has a flamer in it GK always deepstrike paladins near me as they will live through the fire to charge them. Land raiders with assault troops make them cry.

I'm thinking of an Interceptor Squad with an Incinerator for back-field shenanigans, since they're significantly cheaper than Paladins. I can either run them up the field as jump infantry and rely on LOS cover to block me, or shunt right in their face where only a few of them will be able to shoot me.

I would think helldrakes would do really well vs them. Granted you will probably get shot down shortly afterwards depending on how many or left.

 Billagio wrote:
I would think helldrakes would do really well vs them. Granted you will probably get shot down shortly afterwards depending on how many or left.

The problem is that Heldrakes have a 48" threat range (36" zoom, 12" torrent). If you're playing by short table edge, and he has them back in his Deployment Zone by far, you're not going to get many hits on them at all. :/

Chaos solutions=allied deamons. Flamers ignore cover, or pavane them off the ledge of the building and watch them die from fall damage.

GK solution=Outflank a 5 man purgation squad equipped with 4 heavy incinerators

Solution: bring nothing but AV 14. Laugh.

schadenfreude wrote:GK solution=Outflank a 5 man purgation squad equipped with 4 heavy incinerators

A 5-man Purgation squad with 4 Incinerators (note: not heavy incinerators, which have the Torrent rule) is going to be a points sink that competes with DKs and Psyflemen slots, and isn't a very competitive unit to use in a GK list.

Peregrine wrote:Solution: bring nothing but AV 14. Laugh.

Ahahah. Actually, thinking back, his army had little in the way of AV14-counters save for a few Power Klaws. Hm...

Yeah, your answer to this problem is units that can ignore cover saves. Every army has at least a few.

Man i need to realy kick my Lootas arse as they normal do sqwat.

Sounds like you're up against a pretty nasty ork list. Sounds like he's bringing mobs of shoota boyz (they're holding machine guns instead of pistols and axes) with most likely KFF meks and loota support. Is he bringing anything else, or is that it?

As for killing lootas, anything that can deepstrike and ignore cover will help immenesly. I'm not familiar with GK or Chaos though, so I cant help much more than that.

 pretre wrote:
The OP listed ruins as a standard place they hide. The thing about lootas is that they can go to ground and not suffer a huge loss of effectiveness.

If they have an Aegis or Ruins, that means you are trying to dislodge T4 2+ cover models. It isn't going to happen without Ignores Cover.

Lootas can not go to ground till they are under 11 models.

Grab a DK with heavy incinerator and teleporter. With a 2+ save, T6, and 4 wounds you can survive quantitys of autocannon fire and have that torrent flamer to wipe most of a squad in one shooting phase.