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Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)

A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

So it says that it happens simultaneously, does that mean a psyker squad coming in from reserve can cast psychic powers already?

deleted

clively wrote:
Short answer: yes.

This just clarified that a psyker, arriving from reserves at the same time as other units can cast a blessing on the other units that arrived even though it impacts movement.

I don't think it says this. There is still a restriction on page 125 that says "Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve"

So if a Psyker arrives from reserve it cannot cast Blessings (etc) on itself or other units. I think what the FAQ allows is if a Psyker was already on the board, it can cast Blessings (etc) on units that arrived that turn.

Yeah I have to agree with undertow, as this allows for some really cheesy things...

I don't think it even allows you to cast on reserved units entering. Note that it says they are simultaneous with reserve rolls, not with units entering from reserve.

So you can cast blessings before or during the rolling for reserves (psychic communion, I guess). Or cast fortune before deciding whether to add +1 to your reserve rolls for units coming in with your Autarch.

this is very confusing...

So my interpretation is:
Psychic powers -- Reserve Rolls

So since the player gets to decide generally he would choose:
1. Reserve Rolls
2. Psychic Rolls

After the reserve roll and successful the unit would come in.
Then would the unit that is already on the table now be able to cast psychic powers or not?

According to undertow "page 125 that says "Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve"

So what's the ruling?

 Makutsu wrote:
this is very confusing...

So my interpretation is:
Psychic powers -- Reserve Rolls

So since the player gets to decide generally he would choose:
1. Reserve Rolls
2. Psychic Rolls

After the reserve roll and successful the unit would come in.
Then would the unit that is already on the table now be able to cast psychic powers or not?

According to undertow "page 125 that says "Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve"

So what's the ruling?

Psyker A is on baord begining of turn, Psyker B comes in via drop pod. You decide order of events on your turn. Pod comes in(reserves) than use blessings. Psyker B in the pod is arriving via reserves so p125 stops him from casting a blessing. Psyker A is now able to cast blessing since reserves have been resolved. Targets Psyker B's squad.

so Psyker B not allowed to cast psychic powers?
Phew, now I don't have to worry about that stupid doom of malan'Tai

 Makutsu wrote:
so Psyker B not allowed to cast psychic powers?
Phew, now I don't have to worry about that stupid doom of malan'Tai

He can, just not blessings and maeledictions.

He's not allowed to cast powers that happen in the movement phase. Doom of Malan'ti can still use any psychic power and special ability that happens in the shooting phase as normal.

Couldn't doom always do this??

Also as I've quoted somewhere else on this site pg.67

On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be manifested at the start of the Movement phase.

There is nothing in the FAQ that has changed this rule. There is some confusion as to if a psychic power can be cast upon a unit that entered from reserves this turn. I don't think so as the options would be

Roll for reserves -> Use Psychic Powers -> Reserves arrive
or
Use Psychic Powers -> Roll for Reserves -> Reserves arrive

Both rolling for reserves and using psychic powers happen at the same time. It doesn't say that reserves arrive at the start of the turn.
This is the fix for psychic powers that affect reserves.

 Goat wrote:

Psyker A is on baord begining of turn, Psyker B comes in via drop pod. You decide order of events on your turn. Pod comes in(reserves) than use blessings. Psyker B in the pod is arriving via reserves so p125 stops him from casting a blessing. Psyker A is now able to cast blessing since reserves have been resolved. Targets Psyker B's squad.

After reading the FAQ a bit closer, I was apparently incorrect. Goat's answer looks right.

So this was all to decide if we could cast blessings on incoming units, but not if the units themselves can cast those buffs.

I think the biggest deal with this is that you can have your Reserves come on before or after Psychic powers.

So if you have a Psychic Power that effects reserves rolls you could roll for that power first.

Or you can have your reserves come on first so you can target them with psychic powers.

And a model arriving from reserves could use its psychic powers.

According to undertow "page 125 that says "Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve"

I think this is the reason why they can't use psychic powers instead when coming from reserve

or maybe the rule on page 67 that says On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be manifested at the start of the Movement phase. is why they cannot.

Also it says the rolls are made, not that they arrive before you use psychic powers so i don't think you can target reserves with blessings.

Look in the reserves section, you make the roll, THEN they arrive but the ROLL and the use of blessings are at the same time based on the FAQ. This just lets that psychic power for divination work.

But in the FAQ it says the player gets to choose the order that these happen, or does it mean you get to choose what order you do it but they still happen at the same time?

Roll for reserves -> Use Psychic Powers -> Reserves arrive
or
Use Psychic Powers -> Roll for Reserves -> Reserves arrive

The rolling and the use of powers happens at the same time

Seems fair~ I like it this way~

 jegsar wrote:
Roll for reserves -> Use Psychic Powers -> Reserves arrive
or
Use Psychic Powers -> Roll for Reserves -> Reserves arrive
The rolling and the use of powers happens at the same time

This is correct. The reasoning behind this FAQ answer is that this is only way for certain powers to actually work. Scrier's Gaze for example is a blessing that allows you to roll 3 dice and choose one when rolling for Reserves, Outflank and mysterious terrain.
Unless Blessings can be cast before Reserve Rolls, well, 2/3 of that power is now waste of text in a rulebook.

You guys are all skipping over the Outflanking rolls.

Those only happen when the unit is "arriving" from reserves, thus they will move onto the board before psy powers are cast.

coredump, you aren't making sense, outflank rolls are made as the unit is moving on to the table.
For a unit outfanking it would look like this

Use powers/roll for reserves -> Do whatever you didn't do first -> arriving from reserves starts -> select a unit -< roll for outflank -> move unit on -> slect another unit -> move on/DS/Outflank etc...

it is called a reserve roll (3 plus unit is eligible to come on), outflanking roll would be done after the reserve roll and psyhic powers always, outflanking roll is done at the same tme as deep strike scatter. All the FAQ is allowing us to do is do the psyhic powers before the reserve roll, the issue being with certain psyhic powers that influence the reserve rolls (GK one, Scriers gaze etc).

To say that any unit arriving from reserves cannot use rules or abilites that have to be used at the beginning of the turn proves that after the reserves come on, this is NOT the beginning of the turn.

Just to maybe clear stuff up in a neater way.

Outflanking roll and DS Scatter are done after you select which unit (when you have multiple this makes it clearer) you are deploying.

To the main topic, since outflank and DS are after the event "when arriving from reserves" the same as normal reserves we don't need to deal with them.

At the start of your Turn Three, roll for any units remaining in reserves. If the roll is a 3 or mmore, that unit arrives this turn.

but it doesn't say to put the unit on then. it says a little further down

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it

this is where DS/Outflank rules kick in.
At the end of that paragraph it says

The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

This is the only timing i can find in refrence to the trigger "when reserves arrive" that will trigger these rules.
So we know when the roll is done, and when psy powers are used, it clearly states, start of movement phase. arriving from reserves must happen sometime after the reserve roll at the start of the moment phase and before normal moves but it doesn't state when. However if it happens after the reserves roll, then it is no longer the start of the moment phase.

Please provide the quote that states the sending of the event "reserves arrive", and that is happens immediately after the reserves roll. Without this we don't know when it happens other then some time after the roll (that the FAQ refers to) and before normal movement.

Rolling a 3+ means the unit arrives from reserves. We are told that when a unit arrives from reserves, the unit moves on the table. There's no break in there - it just happens. Moving on is part of resolving the roll for reserves.

rigeld2 wrote:
Rolling a 3+ means the unit arrives from reserves. We are told that when a unit arrives from reserves, the unit moves on the table. There's no break in there - it just happens. Moving on is part of resolving the roll for reserves.

To say that any unit arriving from reserves cannot use rules or abilites that have to be used at the beginning of the turn proves that after the reserves come on, this is NOT the beginning of the turn.

Rule book says this more then once, yet we are told to do reserve rolls at the beginning of the turn, the new faq agrees that this is the same time as rolling for reserves and psyhic powers. So which is it?, do you forgo psyhic abililtes to roll for your reserves then do your reserve movement? or roll your psyhic powers then do your reserves. As you way you are saying it you would have to do one of those as once the unit move in from reserves it is not the beginning of the phase/turn as otherwise they would be able to do things that have to be done at the beginning of the turn.

 jegsar wrote:
Just to maybe clear stuff up in a neater way.

Outflanking roll and DS Scatter are done after you select which unit (when you have multiple this makes it clearer) you are deploying.

Spoiler:

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

So this is when deploying them which is after selecting then and you select them "When reserves arrive"

When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves

Same trigger again

To the main topic, since outflank and DS are after the event "when arriving from reserves" the same as normal reserves we don't need to deal with them.

At the start of your Turn Three, roll for any units remaining in reserves. If the roll is a 3 or mmore, that unit arrives this turn.

but it doesn't say to put the unit on then. it says a little further down

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it

this is where DS/Outflank rules kick in.
At the end of that paragraph it says

The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

This is the only timing i can find in refrence to the trigger "when reserves arrive" that will trigger these rules.
So we know when the roll is done, and when psy powers are used, it clearly states, start of movement phase. arriving from reserves must happen sometime after the reserve roll at the start of the moment phase and before normal moves but it doesn't state when. However if it happens after the reserves roll, then it is no longer the start of the moment phase.

Please provide the quote that states the sending of the event "reserves arrive", and that is happens immediately after the reserves roll. Without this we don't know when it happens other then some time after the roll (that the FAQ refers to) and before normal movement.

Rigeld, please provide where you have found that, with a quote or page, paragraph, line number. As you can see from my quotes i have yet to find when the trigger for reserves arriving is. Read last paragraph of quoted text for full explanation.

rigeld2 wrote:
Rolling a 3+ means the unit arrives from reserves. We are told that when a unit arrives from reserves, the unit moves on the table. There's no break in there - it just happens. Moving on is part of resolving the roll for reserves.

I thought so too, but on closer reading I cannot find the actual rule that says this. Arriving from Reserve just states: At the start of your Turn Two,you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in reserve and is rolled for again next turn.. Note that it says "this turn", not immediately.

Note that the rule specifies that the unit arrives this turn, not immediately after rolling 3+ as you said it would. This is even specified even more clearly in the fifth paragraph:
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below...
This means all Reserve Rolls have been made before any unit can move onto the table. Which is the crux of the argument: Can you argue that Reserve Rolls happen at same time as arriving from reserve, if rules require you to do all Reserve rolls before you can arrive from reserve?

 jegsar wrote:
coredump, you aren't making sense, outflank rolls are made as the unit is moving on to the table.
For a unit outfanking it would look like this

Use powers/roll for reserves -> Do whatever you didn't do first -> arriving from reserves starts -> select a unit -< roll for outflank -> move unit on -> slect another unit -> move on/DS/Outflank etc...

It makes sense if you read the FAQ.

It says that Blessings happen simultaneously with reserve rolls *and* with Outflanking rolls.
You are stating that reserve rolls happen at a different time than the Outflanking rolls.... but that is not what the FAQ says.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
All the FAQ is allowing us to do is do the psyhic powers before the reserve roll, ....

No,
the FAQ says you can use Blessings before or after Reserves Rolls
the FAQ says you can use Blessings before or after Outflanking rolls.
the FAQ says you can use Blessings before or after "etc."; whatever that counts for. (though based on their treatment of Outflanking,I would assume Deepstriking...

The FAQ *specifically* mentions that Outflank rolls are simultaneous with Reserve rolls/Psy powers; at least as being defined as happening "at the start of the Psyker's Movement phase".

The point of this is so that you can cast Scryer's Gaze on yourself before rolling for reserves.