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I had a scenario where I chose to charge and close assault a group of necron troops with a lord in the rear with my termies. My opponent asked me if I was going to choose to challenge, I chose no.

He then challenged me with his lord. The lord was not the front of the group.
He pushed lord o front and into base contact with my sergeant.
He used mind shackle scarabs as he had higher initiative than me.
I failed the roll aganst the scarabs.
I took damage to sargeant from own weapon and died.
The Lord then made a consolidation move into base contact with 3 other termies
I had to make a roll again against the mind shackle scarabs.
I lost 3 more termies from mind shackle scarab self inflicted wounds.
I lost 50% of unit failed morale test and was destroyed by a sweeping advance.

This seemed wrong to me.. As I didn't get to resolve any hits against any enemies.

I would appreciate if some one could talk me through the scenario and explain if it was legal re rules and if not what would have been the correct way of resolving the challenge and the validity of the scarabs...

Thanks..

break this down a bit better into play by play. Also MS only triggers once at the begining of the fight, and only B2B and if you are the controlling player you can choose what happens first MSS or Challenge.

Using the scarabs during the challenge was correct. So sergeant is dead. But thats it. No pile in or attacks or scarabs from the Lord on your squad as well.

 brainscan wrote:
I had a scenario where I chose to charge and close assault a group of necron troops with a lord in the rear with my termies. My opponent asked me if I was going to choose to challenge, I chose no. He then challenged me with his lord. Pushed it to front and into base contact with my sergeant. He used mind shackle scarabs as he had higher initiative than me. I failed the role, took damage to sargeant from own weapon and died. The Lord then made a consolidation move into base contact with 3 other termies and repeated the same again. I lost 3 more termies from mind shackle scarab self inflicted wounds. I lost 50% of unit failed morale test and was destroyed by a sweeping advance. This seemed wrong to me.. As I didn't get to resolve any hits against any enemies.

I would appreciate if some one could talk me through the scenario and explain if it was legal re rules and if not what would have been the correct way of resolving the challenge and the validity of the scarabs...

Thanks..

This seems all sorts of messed up, As soon as he won the challenge he consolidated? Did I miss something about combat and challenges... As well MSS only affects ONE model in base to base (Randomize if more) and only after the pile in but before blows are struck. You should have been able to get some strikes in there

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Using the scarabs during the challenge was correct. So sergeant is dead. But thats it. No pile in or attacks or scarabs from the Lord on your squad as well.

MSS can be used in challenges but the timing of MSS and the Challenge is decided by the active player in the turn.

You forget to read the part that the challenge lasts until the end of that combat until after initiative step 1.

MSS are done before blows are struck right after pile in. If he killed your sarg then moved in re-shackle 3 more dude had them kill them selves he's either missinformed or just plain ole cheeting.

once per fight phase, one model only and they have to be base to base with the lord. radomize who if not in a challenge.

the sereant dies - the challenge went as expected. Once the challenge was declared however, that Lord became unable to take part in the rest of the unit combat.

The only way the Lord could have then affected the Temriantors woudl be if in the next assault phase, assumgin you hadnt forced the neron unit to fall back because they got mauled.

So mss come into action during a challenge. I checked with gw staff and I was told it shouldn't.

So as far as i know you can issue a challenge with necron lord. You accept he throws scarabs at your face and you kill yourself woot.

He can only use it once per player turn if I am not mistake.

The lord shouldnt be able to consolidate into cc its not 4th ed. Plus after the challenge he can use em again till next turn.

 brainscan wrote:
So mss come into action during a challenge. I checked with gw staff and I was told it shouldn't.

No. MSS activation happens at same time as challenges are declared/accepted. This means, current player decides the order to resolve them: So generally if it is Necron turn, it is Challenge first, MSS second (which quarantees that MSS will hit the model in challenge) or vice versa for opponent, meaning that the model in challenge can only be affected by MSS if he was in B2B with the Lord after charge, before pile-in moves.

So by refusing the challenge with my sergeant I prevent mss bring used if The Lord is not in btb contact with any of my termies on my turn? My mistake was accepting the challenge?

From my understanding as mss and challenge happens at the same time.
if you charged during assault sub phase

declare challenge
ask if he will mss?
if he will declare it goes off first.
models in btb randomly picked to do mss

after that is resolved go to the challenge moving units so that they may be in btb

continue as normal.
if necron assaulted you, during assault sub phase
he declares challenge
you accept.
he declares challenge move goes first so you go to btb
mss goes off second (only able to affect challenger in challenge?)
then proceed to imitative fight phase.

i believe that is how it goes

Necron FAQ

Page 81 – Mindshackle Scarabs. Change the first sentence to read “At the start of the Fight subphase, after charges have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs.”

This explains how it works and once the challenge has been accepted the lord is not in b2b contact with anything until the end of the entire combat.

 Desubot wrote:
From my understanding as mss and challenge happens at the same time.
if you charged during assault sub phase

declare challenge
ask if he will mss?
if he will declare it goes off first.
models in btb randomly picked to do mss

after that is resolved go to the challenge moving units so that they may be in btb

continue as normal.
if necron assaulted you, during assault sub phase
he declares challenge
you accept.
he declares challenge move goes first so you go to btb
mss goes off second (only able to affect challenger in challenge?)
then proceed to imitative fight phase.

i believe that is how it goes

This is correct.

tgf wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
From my understanding as mss and challenge happens at the same time.
if you charged during assault sub phase

declare challenge
ask if he will mss?
if he will declare it goes off first.
models in btb randomly picked to do mss

after that is resolved go to the challenge moving units so that they may be in btb

continue as normal.
if necron assaulted you, during assault sub phase
he declares challenge
you accept.
he declares challenge move goes first so you go to btb
mss goes off second (only able to affect challenger in challenge?)
then proceed to imitative fight phase.

i believe that is how it goes

This is correct.

Please read the FAQ if you are going to confirm something. This is not correct the challenge happens first then the MSS on both players turns. Annoying yes but that is what GW ruled. Throw the champ at them... kill the squad and have him fail his LD test. If he refuses the challenge he can't MSS at least.

Well if he is in btb with any model he can mss.

and the statement was for the first round.

any other round they are already in the challenge.

edit which faq as i cant find it

 jegsar wrote:
Please read the FAQ if you are going to confirm something. This is not correct the challenge happens first then the MSS on both players turns. Annoying yes but that is what GW ruled. Throw the champ at them... kill the squad and have him fail his LD test. If he refuses the challenge he can't MSS at least.

Please understand the FAQ if you are going to deny something

The FAQ never indicates MSS happens before challenges, it simply changes "the start of the assault phase" for "the start of the fight sub-phase" which is entirely consistent with the wording for the timing of challenges.

So not being in btb contact before challenge is issued prevents mss being used. So my opponent was wrong to move his lord from the rear squad rank to front to be in btb contact with my sergeant once the challenge was accepted?

I'm confused ...

So if I refused the challenge, The Lord would stay out of reach with his mss? Or if I accepted the challenge The Lord still would be out of range with mss as it can't move?

brainscan wrote:So not being in btb contact before challenge is issued prevents mss being used. So my opponent was wrong to move his lord from the rear squad rank to front to be in btb contact with my sergeant once the challenge was accepted?

I'm confused ...

So if I refused the challenge, The Lord would stay out of reach with his mss? Or if I accepted the challenge The Lord still would be out of range with mss as it can't move?

Basically, if it is your turn, then you get to decide which happens first: MSS goes off, or challengers move into b2b with each other.

On Your Turn:
* You get to pick the order of anything that 'resolves' at the same time. In this case, you have MSS and Challenges. Since it is your turn, you get to pick which gets resolved first, the MSS, or the Challenges.
- IF you choose the MSS before the challenge, his Lord can only use the MSS on anything that is in base contact with him. After that happens, THEN you or opponent can issue a challenge. Either way, MSS is done.
- After the first round of combat, if both are still in combat, then the order doesn't really matter since they are still in a challenge, and the MSS test happens either way.
* Initiative has nothing to do when to test for MSS, it happens before I10, and any Pile-in moves. Pile-in moves happen at the initiative step, not when getting charged.

On Opponent Turn:
* He gets to pick the order that things resolve. So if he had charged you, or it was his turn and no challenges were going on. Then he could issue the challenge and then use MSS.
- Remember, he doesn't get to choose the model that accepts the challenge (though he is encouraged to pick one!). It's only when you decline that he gets to pick a model. He won't get MSS if none of your models are in base after refusing.

-----
A few other things that aren't really clear:

1) Yes you have to test against MSS every round of combat. However, they can only affect one model and not every model in base contact. If there are multiple models in base contact, then one gets randomly selected.
*In your example, I don't see how you can lose 3 terminators to MSS in an ongoing combat when Terminators should only have 2(?) attacks, unless they had LC's or MoK (CSM), and you failed 3 saves?

2) Most Terminator units are Fearless, if they aren't, then any 'loyalist' terminators have ATSKNF, so a sweep would have been impossible. (Unless you were maybe playing CSM Terminators, and then Im not sure)
*Sidenote here, also remember that Terminators can't sweep Necrons either, something newer players also tend to forget.

3) You DID note that his Lord was not in front, but didn't say how close he was. Models need to be able to 'attack' from where they are to be able to issue/accept challenges. So IF his Lord was more than 2" from any model in base contact after you had moved your chargers (before any Pile-in moves), then he wouldn't have been able to issue/accept a challenge in the first place.

Good luck in future games!

You mentioned he wasnt at the front of his group....this is a common mistake people do with challenges.

If the characters are more than 2 inches from any models in base to base contact (i.e. if they can strike melee blows or not) they cannot be challenged. Ive used this rule to sneak my nobz with klaws out of a challenge several times.

Thanks guys, I really understand now.

Something else that might be worth noting, is that when a Necron Character is downed, and makes his WBB roll, he is no longer in a challenge. So a challenge will need to be issued again. If you happen to NOT be in a challenge on your turn, you can force him to use the MSS again before getting into a challenge.

 jegsar wrote:

tgf wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
From my understanding as mss and challenge happens at the same time.
if you charged during assault sub phase

declare challenge
ask if he will mss?
if he will declare it goes off first.
models in btb randomly picked to do mss

after that is resolved go to the challenge moving units so that they may be in btb

continue as normal.
if necron assaulted you, during assault sub phase
he declares challenge
you accept.
he declares challenge move goes first so you go to btb
mss goes off second (only able to affect challenger in challenge?)
then proceed to imitative fight phase.

i believe that is how it goes

This is correct.

Please read the FAQ if you are going to confirm something. This is not correct the challenge happens first then the MSS on both players turns. Annoying yes but that is what GW ruled. Throw the champ at them... kill the squad and have him fail his LD test. If he refuses the challenge he can't MSS at least.

Desubot's explanation was perfectly correct. Here are the relevant FAQ entries and BBB entries so you can read them again.

Necron FAQ

Page 81 – Mindshackle Scarabs.
Change the first sentence to read “At the start of the Fight subphase,
after charges have been made, but before any blows are
struck, randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base
contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs.”

Page 9 BBB
EXCEPTIONS
... At orher times, you'll find that both
players will have to do something at the same time. When
these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the
order in which the events occur. ...

Page 64 BBB
ISSUING A CHALLENGE
Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before
any blows are struck...

Combining the above, issuing a challenge and MSS trigger at the same time, so it is up to the player who's turn it is to determine what order they occur in.