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Hi dakka,

So i considered putting this in the Army List section, but seeing as i'm certain i want to keep all the bikes, i decided to put it here for some tactical advice

Here is the list:
Captain w/ Bike, Artificer Armour, Relic Blade - 180
Bike Squad w/ +5men, 2 Plasma Guns, Meltabombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 300
Bike Squad w/ +5men, 2 Plasma Guns, Meltabombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 300
Bike Squad w/ +5men, 2 Plasma Guns, Meltabombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 300
Attack Bike Squadron w/ 2 Multi-Meltas, 1 Heavy Bolter - 140
Attack Bike Squadron w/ 2 Multi-Meltas, 1 Heavy Bolter - 140
Attack Bike Squadron w/ 2 Multi-Meltas, 1 Heavy Bolter - 140
-1500

So, tactically speaking, what would be tough to compete with, and how would i overcome them?

heldrakes with baleflamers would ruin your day. any flyers really, but especially those.

As the above poster said helldrakes are just the perfect counter to this kind of army, though one model shouldn't deter you completely of course.

Since you are running codex marines a pair of stormtalons would really help you out. They still fit the theme and their rules synergize well with bike lists.

It's tough to run a small fast force that is shooty.
You want to get close to use all that shooting to it's full effect, but you don't want to get too close to be caught in an assault.

IMO, this is where bike lists fail. Anytime you rapidfire, get the extra D6 from a multi-melta, or fire a melta gun, you're too close and should be getting assaulted on your next turn.
Is that shooting effective enough to put those bikes into melee? Usually not.

As support for a 'normal' army, bikes can run up a flank, pick off an isolated unit or sacrifice themselves in a run at a high value target. But against all bikes, opponents can circle their wagons and avoid the unit isolation problem. It's not like you can run a whole army up on a flank when the enemy is fairly blobbed together.

Bike based armies need a strong close combat threat to break them out when they get grabbed. One guy with a relic blade isn't that strong close combat element.

But thank you for giving me one more reason to finish my Colossus conversion.

-Matt

Yeah... As low as the model count here is, I would maybe consider dropping some stuff to try to get a command squad with Storm shields and power mauls or something.

You main problems will be in CC, although you're fast enough to stay out of that for the most part, and against Flyers.

other than that it looks pretty good though.

I would consolidate the HB attack bikes into one squadron. You're just wasting them by having them paired with MM attack bikes.

If it were me, I would drop one attack bike squad, have one be MMs, one be HBs, and take a Stormtalon for the third FA slot.


That will give you a more well rounded force. Maybe give your Bike sergeants power weapons of some kind. Not sure how the points are working out.

I would also try to get a Command Squad in there. Bike Command squads are a decent unit, if a little expensive.

Also, bikes can't climb stairs for claiming objectives in buildings and ruins. And for whatever reason, no one in the 40kverse can get off a bike during combat.

And yet you can climb off a chariot.

Except rules for dismounting would likely have been quite messy. GW would probably have botched the whole thing.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Also, bikes can't climb stairs for claiming objectives in buildings and ruins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqWUjMUY_jo&t=1m13s


Psssh, shows what you know.

More than anything else, pick your fights!

This means using your mobility (including Combat Tactics) to engage and destroy the units that present the greatest threat to you - exactly what these are will vary from opponent to opponent. Threats will include fast close combat units, and long range firepower - both of these can cause enough damage to make your low model count a significant weakness. Don't be afraid to concentrate your bikes in close combat range of an isolated enemy unit if this will remove them as a threat -otherwise stay away from CC if is will counter your mobility and firepower. The exception is if you are deliberately tying up enemy units to counter their greater firepower, or if your opponent is so weak in close combat you know you'll finish them off and be moving again very soon.

Don't forget the mission - in fact,consider staying away from the objectives for the first few turns to try and lure the enemy away from them too. Then you can turbo-boost and claim them against minimal opposition.


I'm currently in the process of creating a White Scars list but I seem to have taken a different tack. 6-man units give me more special weapons at the cost of a little resilience and slightly fewer scoring units. I'm also using scouts for upper-floor objective-holding, and landspeeders for even more firepower...

Yeah, with your speed you could focus on one section of the enemy army and totally overwhelm them while being relativly safe from retaliation.

Are helldrakes really that big of an issue? I mean, their template weapon is from the base now (according to the FAQ - unless i dreamt that up...), which means, 1" is wasted because you cant get within 1" of an enemy. Also, if i move i get a 5+ cover save, so it's not like i'm totally defenceless. I'm not sure of it's S, but if it's S4, then i'm T5 so it's just that little bit harder. Also, with it having to move 18" per turn, most of my army could avoid it, with being able to move 12" per turn.

Pre-measuring also helps alot. The max threat range of an assault based infantry unit is 18" - 6 from move, and up to 12 charge. I can always measure and stay around the 18-24" mark. It'd keep me at arms reach for a turn, then move in the following turn and finish up with rapid fire.

And i figured the Hbolter attack bike is more of a bullet catcher than anything else.

As for climbing stairs.... well... i dont know

No, it just means you measure from the base. Its still a torrent weapon.

Zambro wrote:
Are helldrakes really that big of an issue? I mean, their template weapon is from the base now (according to the FAQ - unless i dreamt that up...), which means, 1" is wasted because you cant get within 1" of an enemy. Also, if i move i get a 5+ cover save, so it's not like i'm totally defenceless. I'm not sure of it's S, but if it's S4, then i'm T5 so it's just that little bit harder. Also, with it having to move 18" per turn, most of my army could avoid it, with being able to move 12" per turn.

Well pretty much everything you've said there is wrong.

It's a torrent weapon so goes 12" with the flamer template anywhere in those 12".
Secondly, it's a template, so you don't get a cover save. And now you don't get a cover save from vector strikes either so your 12" move won't help that much there.
It's str:6 so t5 doesn't help that much.

Heldrakes (yes plural) are in every CSM army I've faced since the codex début. They will give you a hard time, even with the movement.

Zambro wrote:
Are helldrakes really that big of an issue? I mean, their template weapon is from the base now (according to the FAQ - unless i dreamt that up...), which means, 1" is wasted because you cant get within 1" of an enemy. Also, if i move i get a 5+ cover save, so it's not like i'm totally defenceless. I'm not sure of it's S, but if it's S4, then i'm T5 so it's just that little bit harder. Also, with it having to move 18" per turn, most of my army could avoid it, with being able to move 12" per turn.

Pre-measuring also helps alot. The max threat range of an assault based infantry unit is 18" - 6 from move, and up to 12 charge. I can always measure and stay around the 18-24" mark. It'd keep me at arms reach for a turn, then move in the following turn and finish up with rapid fire.

And i figured the Hbolter attack bike is more of a bullet catcher than anything else.

As for climbing stairs.... well... i dont know

1) Helldrake is much better than you think. S6 AP3 no cover save, and part of the template has to be within 12", so the far end can hit 20" out.
2) Premeasuring works both ways. Infantry are going to be charging 8-18", but bikes, beasts, cav, and jump packs are going to be charging 14"-24".
3) HBolter attack bike is too expensive to catch bullets.

The big problem with your list is fighting somebody who knows what they are doing. Since you have ZERO guns that use blasts or templates, your opponent can form up in a massive cluster and bubble wrap it with infantry.

You want to make this playable? Lose the units of attack bikes. Add in 2 Vindicators to make your opponent want to spread out. Add in Storm Talon with Lascannon/Assault Cannon. Saved you 40 points.
Now you have a chance against flyers, and you have something to make your opponent spread out a little, which gives you the chance to pick off isolated units. With points saved, add two power fists to biker sarges (who drop the melta bomb).
Ideally, I'd get some foot units to take things in buildings. Could be tacticals in pod, or scouts on foot; or even scouts in speeder.

I myself run a very similar list. I'm currently.running 1-3 storm talons myself depending on the points were using. Having just witnessed one of the strongest Eldar lists being shreaded today by 2 helldrakes and relatively nothing else I am in fear of that ridiculousus flamethrower.

To not hijack the thread though what is your feelings towards Thunderfire cannons compared to Vindicators?

Take the vindicators over the cannons. You seem to thinkbyour facing lightly armoured that arnt a horde with alk the bikters/heavy bikters and the thunderdure. Hinestly. 2 vindicators (or at least whurlwinds)

And have you cinsidered running this as counts as ravenwing?

Using sammael and then you get access tibither bike irientated stuff ue: more landspeeders and mist if akk black knight who wukk do you allot if justice. Plus with a couole of plasma cannons from the land soeeder vengeance and sammael youll have a couole if templates to throw about

I've considered vindicators for a while. And i dont think they would fit. 24" range is limiting, and they wont be able to keep up with the bikes. I do think TFCs would work. Cheap, very good range and plenty of blasts.

I'm not sure about a ST, tbh. It's weak (armour wise) and always gets shot down by a quad-gun. I think i'll go for a fortification with quad-gun for anti-air. Scouts will likely man the gun, i could even get telion?

this is what the list is going to look like:
Captain w/ Bike, Artificer Armour, Relic Blade - 180
Bike Squad w/ +5men, 2 Plasma Guns, Meltabombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 300
Bike Squad w/ +5men, 2 Plasma Guns, Meltabombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 300
Bike Squad w/ +5men, 2 Plasma Guns, Meltabombs, Attack Bike: Multi-Melta - 300
Scouts w/ Snipers, Telion - 125
Thunderfire Cannon - 100
Thunderfire Cannon - 100
Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad-gun - 100
-1505

That puts me 5 over. Cut a meltabomb from the bikes, and i'm sweet. What do you think?

Thunderfires are excellent at dealing with any non meq hordes.Still deal with meq just fine though and light armor with the quake shot.

I'm still not convinced about Ravenwing being better traditional marines. The black knights are very nice with the rad grenade but other than that everything else is just overly priced bikes.