Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I dont understand how they can have a Rail Rifle (Heavy, pinning) as a weapon, which does not have Sniper in the title BUT the Name of the unit is SNIPER Drone Team, yet not have the Sniper Special Rule? Did 6th Edition fix this? A target lock does not automatically make it a sniper unit (cant pick out individual units.)

sad but true, Tau are still very much under construction IMO I'm just holding out for then next set of rules to 'hopefully' change tau to better suit, well...tau

Everyone says that the new Codex for Tau will be out this year but I dont know how reliable that is. Tau's Codex came out in 4th Edition right? I personally think using FW for a good bit of units would be my "fix" since the Codex is lacking so much. Throw in some FW and now ya have flyers, better Broadsides, the best HQ choice, better suits, better fast attacks, better Hammerheads....As of right now, FW's Tau rules make more sense and are much better than the Codex.

No one never does know for sure when something is being released until it shows up on gws, if you want snipers, eldar rangers make for a good choice in the allies slot...sad that we have to rely on other armies to pick up where tau lack so terribly where they shoudn't

Yes, Tau Empire is 4th ed codex - like Eldar.
They suffer from being "not marines" so have to wait in line after all the power-armour spam to get the goodies - and then the rules change for the second time before it happens again.

No, thankfully.
Changing them to standard snipers would nerf their effectiveness pretty hard.

edit: ahh think im confused between sniper rule and sniper weapons?

Yeah, being S6 AP3 I find helps them fulfill their role (anti marine) far better than being sniper would be.

There is no Sniper rule on any unit in the Tau codex.

*Insert wishlisting here.*

Giving them rending would be cool, but yes the strength 6 is better than a strength X weapon (all other things being equal) in most situations.

Wait...so S6 AP3 is better than auto wound on 4+ regardless of strength and stack rending to that which effectively gives the weapon AP2, the Precision Shot ability which would allow me to pick out characters, and possibly pinning....Rail Rifles alone can suck it.

I'm not saying the WEAPON has to be a Sniper Weapon, but seeing that its Tau we are talking about, the Spotter with all his Tech stuff should allow the Sniper Special Ability on top of the shield generator. If i'm going to be paying for a unit that is 10 points cheaper than a Hammerhead, make it worth my wild ya know? I dont think having a unit that has the sniper special ability and Stealth that can precision strike and render a target is too much to ask. I mean, what else are snipers suppose to do? The rail rifle is a heavy so they have to stay put. I can do the same things with a unit of Pathfinders for a whole hell of a lot less, minus the stealth generators and it not take away from my HEAVY slot.

I think they are much better off having a str 6 ap 3 weapon that wounds most marines on 2's and not allowing things in power armor an armor save, they get pinning as well so against space marines that aren't fearless and arent terminators they are pretty good, they can also take out Rhinos when needed.

 spears wrote:
No, thankfully.
Changing them to standard snipers would nerf their effectiveness pretty hard.

edit: ahh think im confused between sniper rule and sniper weapons?

Yea thats what I was saying ^. Keep the Rail Rifle, but add the Sniper Special Ability. If its called a SNIPER drone team, but cant SNOOP, its just a Pathfinder with drones?
Take a Pathfinder unit consisting of 4 pathfinders, 3 have upgraded to rail rifles (78 points). You effectively have a unit that can damn near do the same thing as a "Sniper Drone Team." Get a shau'ui and give him hw gun controller and a marker drone and you do have the same thing. Actually you have 2 marker lights that you can employ from one unit and its a scoring unit so you can Hold onto your base objective(lets say inside a building) and receive the same thing as the Stealth Generator(per say) and capture the objective.... AND you dont have to worry about an Enemy Character using its Precision Shot to take out your drone controller which will destroy the entire Drone Team.

Like I said, you give the Sniper Special Rule to the SNIPER Drone Team and keep EVERYTHING else the same (so all there needs is an ERRATA update) and you have a Heavy Unit that actually is worth fielding and lives up to its name.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I think they are much better off having a str 6 ap 3 weapon that wounds most marines on 2's and not allowing things in power armor an armor save, they get pinning as well so against space marines that aren't fearless and arent terminators they are pretty good, they can also take out Rhinos when needed.

I agree with you AvengingKnee. Not saying the Rail Rifle should be considered a Sniping weapon which changes its Stat LIne, just saying that the SNIPER Drone Team should receive the Sniper Special Ability since the name of the Unit says its a Sniper. I dont want my pathfinders turning into snipers.

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
Take a Pathfinder unit consisting of 4 pathfinders, 3 have upgraded to rail rifles (78 points). You effectively have a unit that can damn near do the same thing as a "Sniper Drone Team."

Minus the camo, minus the networked part of the markerlight.

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
Get a shau'ui and give him hw gun controller and a marker drone and you do have the same thing.

Still minus the camo, while costing quite a bit more.

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
...and its a scoring unit...

Only in one mission type.

The reason I brought this up is because I played a Tau vs GN game last weekend and had to do some quick modifying and it ended up being a Tau allied with SM vs GN. This guy ended up dropping his giant, monstrous DreadKnight that did that 24" Teleport thing (bs) and dropped right in front of my two Hammerheads (WTF?) Luckily I fielded SM Scout Squad with Sniper rifles. Even though his toughness was INSANE, they automatically wounded him on 4+. It took a shot from a rail rifle to put 1 wound in him and the sniper squad w/missile launcher did the other 3 wounds. Now if I had a Sniper Drone Team, this would probably not happen. I'm not looking for SM killers with a specific unit. If I want that, I'll field Vespids for cheaper and SJS the crap outta a SM Squad. Just saying....

HawkeyeStryker wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I think they are much better off having a str 6 ap 3 weapon that wounds most marines on 2's and not allowing things in power armor an armor save, they get pinning as well so against space marines that aren't fearless and arent terminators they are pretty good, they can also take out Rhinos when needed.

I agree with you AvengingKnee. Not saying the Rail Rifle should be considered a Sniping weapon which changes its Stat LIne, just saying that the SNIPER Drone Team should receive the Sniper Special Ability since the name of the Unit says its a Sniper. I dont want my pathfinders turning into snipers.

I think that would work out fine, hopefully something like that happens because as good as they are they fight broadsides for slots(I know you can get up to 3 squads as 1 heavy support slot), but fighting such an amazing unit for a slot hurts I almost wish they would move them to a different slot.

Pyrian wrote:

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
Take a Pathfinder unit consisting of 4 pathfinders, 3 have upgraded to rail rifles (78 points). You effectively have a unit that can damn near do the same thing as a "Sniper Drone Team."

Minus the camo, minus the networked part of the markerlight.

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
Get a shau'ui and give him hw gun controller and a marker drone and you do have the same thing.

Still minus the camo, while costing quite a bit more.

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
...and its a scoring unit...

Only in one mission type.

LOL I guess the "damn near the same thing" wasn't good enough The major point I'm adding to this is that Its SAD that I'm comparing a 4 team Pathfinder unit with a Heavy Unit and its almost Identical. ALMOST. You go up against a SM with template weapons that negate cover saves and you just wasted 80 points. The big thing to take away from all of this is I'm pissed because GW false advertised and gave me a chubby thinking I was getting a Sniper Team, but all I got was a single Fire Warrior unit with 3 modified gun drones who cant target individual units (essentially). Add stealth generator and a network markerlight and voala. Hell it only shoots 6 inches further than the standard pulse rifle! Hardly a "Sniper" unit...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

HawkeyeStryker wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
I think they are much better off having a str 6 ap 3 weapon that wounds most marines on 2's and not allowing things in power armor an armor save, they get pinning as well so against space marines that aren't fearless and arent terminators they are pretty good, they can also take out Rhinos when needed.

I agree with you AvengingKnee. Not saying the Rail Rifle should be considered a Sniping weapon which changes its Stat LIne, just saying that the SNIPER Drone Team should receive the Sniper Special Ability since the name of the Unit says its a Sniper. I dont want my pathfinders turning into snipers.

I think that would work out fine, hopefully something like that happens because as good as they are they fight broadsides for slots(I know you can get up to 3 squads as 1 heavy support slot), but fighting such an amazing unit for a slot hurts I almost wish they would move them to a different slot.

If you take 2 Broadside Shas'ui and a Shas'vre it equals 220points w/o any additions and takes up one Heavy Slot. 3 Broadsides.
If you take 3 Sniper drone Teams for 80 points/team it equals 240 points and takes up one Heavy Slot. 3 Drone Teams.

"Hmmm...3 TL Rail Rifles (damn they cant use submunitions anymore but still!) with 3 twin linked Smart Missile Systems that can deep strike if need be OR 3 Drone Teams with Rail Rifles while praying no one has a Thunder witch Cannon or some other blast weapon..." To me the choice is clear. I know you can pick off SM's BUT you throw 12 SMS rounds in a unit along with 3 Rail Rifle rounds, both reroll misses as well as the ability to take out any metal box on the board with a single shot (not just low armor vehicles) and instant kill thinks like Terms or crazy characters with +2 AS.....you cant go wrong.

Now I've thought about what you said and putting them in a different Unit type...like Fast Attack (joking), so its either Elites which would make the Tau Codex nothing but elites or Troop Choice which would be WAY too good that It would be ERRATA'd faster than a Kim Kardashian wedding! So no where it can go other than Heavy (since its a Heavy weapon to begin with and Sniping units dont need to move too much. Or do they??? Best thing to do is throw those bad boys on Piranha's as a drone choice and now you can field up to 6 Piranha's with Fusion Blasters and non-twin linked Gun Drones with Rail Rifles and now you have the only legitimate Fast Attack model for the Tau (unless the Vespid Neutron Gun gets added range to the likes of 18 or 24 inches...then you have 2 Fast Attacks!). I can go all day on how to improve the crappy fake sniper drone teams without being overly powerful.

HawkeyeStryker wrote:

LOL I guess the "damn near the same thing" wasn't good enough The major point I'm adding to this is that Its SAD that I'm comparing a 4 team Pathfinder unit with a Heavy Unit and its almost Identical. ALMOST. You go up against a SM with template weapons that negate cover saves and you just wasted 80 points. The big thing to take away from all of this is I'm pissed because GW false advertised and gave me a chubby thinking I was getting a Sniper Team, but all I got was a single Fire Warrior unit with 3 modified gun drones who cant target individual units (essentially). Add stealth generator and a network markerlight and voala. Hell it only shoots 6 inches further than the standard pulse rifle! Hardly a "Sniper" unit...

A sniper rifle only shoots 6" further than a pulse rifle. I think adding sniper to the sniper drones is a great idea. It would be one less heavy support slot filled with 2+ cover save Hammerheads or Broadsides.
Considering how good the other heavy choices are, I'd gladly let you get "sniper" for free.

-Matt

HawkeyeStryker wrote:Wait...so S6 AP3 is better than auto wound on 4+ regardless of strength and stack rending to that which effectively gives the weapon AP2, the Precision Shot ability which would allow me to pick out characters, and possibly pinning....Rail Rifles alone can suck it.

Yes, that is exactly what i'm saying.

Rending on a 6 = 16% chance of ap 2
Rail rifle = 100% chance of ap 3
Advantage: Rail rifle

Wound anything on a 4+
Wound anything 5 toughness or less on a 3 or less
Advantage: Rail Rifle

Wound anything on a 4+
Wound anything toughness 7+ on a 5+
Advantage: Sniper Weapon

As you can see, the only thing the sniper weapon has on the rail rifle is the ability to wound rediculous stuff like wraithlords and c'tan slightly more reliably, (and precision shot on a 6) and in exchange is worse vs. just about everything else.

Yeah, I'd take Strength 6 over Strength 3 with Poison and Rending against 95% of the targets that might appear on the table top.

However the Sniper Rule can apply to the model as well as the weapon. When applied to the model you get to allocate the hit when you roll a 6 to hit regardless of the weapon. That is what I'd like to see on a next generation Sniper Drone team. That and replace Pinning (useless, doesn't fit with the way the weapon works) with Strikedown (works more often and can really slow a unit down).

Rail rifles would be aweful with sniper, their main strength is that they hit hard. Tbh if sniper drones weren't a heavy choice and were maybe a little bit cheaper they'd be bloody good, sniper weapons are rubbish, if you want to make rail rifles more snipey give them rending or precision shots.

EDIT: realised the sniper rule that provides precision shots, derp, thought that was a fantasy rule only, my bad. Yeah sniper first perfectly on them

Also @hawkeyestryker, no offence, but what are you talking about. A pathfinder team is 2 points less, missing the stealth gen, BS4 spotter, networked markerlight, LD7, AND has to pay the devilfish tax of a 80 points (cost of a 2nd sniper team), which gives you a transport that generally just sits about doing nothing because it doesn't mesh with the rest of your army. Also vespids are not better than anything, we all know this.

imo sniper teams should be either a "FOC free" heavy choice or "FOC free" non scoring troops choice, 3 teams per selection, each selection for 1 other troops choice or heavy choice, dont count towards minimum requirements

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
"Hmmm...3 TL Rail Rifles (damn they cant use submunitions anymore but still!) with 3 twin linked Smart Missile Systems that can deep strike

Broadsides with:
-TL rail rifles?
-TL smart missile systems?
-Deep strike?

Forgive me if I've missed a joke or wish list in this thread but lolwut?

However on topic, the sniper drone itself should get sniper USR, not the actual rail rifle

 Nathemo wrote:

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
"Hmmm...3 TL Rail Rifles (damn they cant use submunitions anymore but still!) with 3 twin linked Smart Missile Systems that can deep strike

Broadsides with:
-TL rail rifles?
-TL smart missile systems?
-Deep strike?

Forgive me if I've missed a joke or wish list in this thread but lolwut?

However on topic, the sniper drone itself should get sniper USR, not the actual rail rifle

I think someone has been miss running Broadsides. Submunitions? They have never had them.

Some people tried to argue that the faq let them

To be honest, with such small squad sizes i wouldn't count on rolling those sixes anymore than i currently count on pinning.

Jefffar wrote:
However the Sniper Rule can apply to the model as well as the weapon. When applied to the model you get to allocate the hit when you roll a 6 to hit regardless of the weapon.

And then you also wound on a 4+ instead of a 2+ (against most targets) like rail rifles currently do. Whether the Sniper rule is on the character or the weapon makes no difference.

Sniper Drones don't have 'sniper' special rule, but they are better than MEQ Scouts with Sniper Rifles.

Bobug wrote:
Rail rifles would be aweful with sniper, their main strength is that they hit hard. Tbh if sniper drones weren't a heavy choice and were maybe a little bit cheaper they'd be bloody good, sniper weapons are rubbish, if you want to make rail rifles more snipey give them rending or precision shots.

EDIT: realised the sniper rule that provides precision shots, derp, thought that was a fantasy rule only, my bad. Yeah sniper first perfectly on them

Also @hawkeyestryker, no offence, but what are you talking about. A pathfinder team is 2 points less, missing the stealth gen, BS4 spotter, networked markerlight, LD7, AND has to pay the devilfish tax of a 80 points (cost of a 2nd sniper team), which gives you a transport that generally just sits about doing nothing because it doesn't mesh with the rest of your army. Also vespids are not better than anything, we all know this.

imo sniper teams should be either a "FOC free" heavy choice or "FOC free" non scoring troops choice, 3 teams per selection, each selection for 1 other troops choice or heavy choice, dont count towards minimum requirements

@Bobug, I'm not trying to say that a pathfinder can do everything that a Sniper Drone Team Can Do for so much cheaper BUT it can achieve the same objective. A pathfinder can be equipped with the same Gun as a Sniper Drone can and the Shas'vre pathfinder can take a marker drone so now the pathfinders can still shoot at the same group of SM's that the Sniper Drone Team can, achieve the same results and be at the same distance...and you can also have 2 markerlights hit the SM's if the Shas'vre throws one too. Now obviously they dont have the Stealth shield generators to give them the cover saves and the addition of the marker drones make them more expensive. I'm not trying to see which unit is better and more cost effective. I'm just saying its pathetic to say "I got the same result with the same weapon at the same distance with PATHFINDERS as I did with a "Sniper" team. This whole post was more of "Why are they called Snipers if they dont even have the sniping capability(which precision shot is a HUGE advantage)?" And I'm not even saying I LIKE the rail rifle as a sniper rifle. Again, I'm just saying if the damn team is called SNIPER drone team then the damn things need to be able to snipe I.E. Target specific characters from great distances. I'd much more want the Sniper Special rule than a Sniper Labeled Gun any day. Pathfinders arent meant to "snipe", they are meant to ping the enemy with markerlights. I just think its dumb to pretty much fulfill the role of the Tau "sniper" unit (to the extent I just explained) with them, because the Sniper Drone Team isnt really a Sniper Team at all. I never field Pathfinders though I do have Devilfishes when I play people with lots of tanks. Nothing like running 3 devilfishes loaded with 36 total fire warriors ready to throw 36 EMP grenades at some metal boxes! Shock and Awe factor lol.

I agree, they should be a free unit OR just change the dispensation of them disolving the "sniper drone team" and allow the drones to be an addition of choice like the gun drones are. They just arent worth having when you have broadsides and hammerheads or (in rare situations) skyrays.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

HawkeyeStryker wrote:

LOL I guess the "damn near the same thing" wasn't good enough The major point I'm adding to this is that Its SAD that I'm comparing a 4 team Pathfinder unit with a Heavy Unit and its almost Identical. ALMOST. You go up against a SM with template weapons that negate cover saves and you just wasted 80 points. The big thing to take away from all of this is I'm pissed because GW false advertised and gave me a chubby thinking I was getting a Sniper Team, but all I got was a single Fire Warrior unit with 3 modified gun drones who cant target individual units (essentially). Add stealth generator and a network markerlight and voala. Hell it only shoots 6 inches further than the standard pulse rifle! Hardly a "Sniper" unit...

A sniper rifle only shoots 6" further than a pulse rifle. I think adding sniper to the sniper drones is a great idea. It would be one less heavy support slot filled with 2+ cover save Hammerheads or Broadsides.
Considering how good the other heavy choices are, I'd gladly let you get "sniper" for free.

-Matt

sometimes a sniper unit is more valuable than an extra hammerhead. I found that out when playing against Grey Knights. In most situations I'd always have 2 Hamerheads and a unit of 3 broadsides as a troop choice BUT once you hit the 2k point mark, you effectively double your FOC so you can add an additional 3 Heavy spots. IF Sniper Drones were just as they are now (which still lack I think) BUT they get the Sniper Special Rule (Not turning their Rail Rifles into a sniper type, big difference) Then why the hell would you not take them? They would rock against SM who can get their stat boosters from techpriests, and librarians, and chaplins and what not. Pick those things off with Percision Shot given to a true sniper unit. Of course you also have the "look out sir" role which would save the intended character but hey, he can only do that so many times and its based on a dice roll. You'll eventually win. Its all on the opponent and how you play I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nathemo wrote:

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
"Hmmm...3 TL Rail Rifles (damn they cant use submunitions anymore but still!) with 3 twin linked Smart Missile Systems that can deep strike

Broadsides with:
-TL rail rifles?
-TL smart missile systems?
-Deep strike?

Forgive me if I've missed a joke or wish list in this thread but lolwut?

However on topic, the sniper drone itself should get sniper USR, not the actual rail rifle

haha I'm talking about a Broadside TEAM (up to 3 broadsides in a unit) as compared to a complete unit of sniper drones which i believe is 9 rail rifles. I'd rather take the Broadside Team. Wasnt trying to make a Godside with his Godweapons lmao.

And yes, the USR is what I was trying to convey, not the type of weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barnowl wrote:

 Nathemo wrote:

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
"Hmmm...3 TL Rail Rifles (damn they cant use submunitions anymore but still!) with 3 twin linked Smart Missile Systems that can deep strike

Broadsides with:
-TL rail rifles?
-TL smart missile systems?
-Deep strike?

Forgive me if I've missed a joke or wish list in this thread but lolwut?

However on topic, the sniper drone itself should get sniper USR, not the actual rail rifle

I think someone has been miss running Broadsides. Submunitions? They have never had them.

@the misuse of Broadsides: I only made that comment because EVEN THOUGH its stated in the Codex that the Vehicle Mounted Railguns could fire the submunition, Games Workshop just added an FAQ just this month that had to apparently Clarify that even further by saying the same thing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
However the Sniper Rule can apply to the model as well as the weapon. When applied to the model you get to allocate the hit when you roll a 6 to hit regardless of the weapon.

And then you also wound on a 4+ instead of a 2+ (against most targets) like rail rifles currently do. Whether the Sniper rule is on the character or the weapon makes no difference.

actually you would still wound on a 2+ like normal. It just allows you to wound on a 4+ on any model reguardless of Toughness rather than a 2+ on T3 or worse. So you would get a wound at 2+ against T3, 3+ against T4 and 4+ on T5 and above. The best of both worlds. Now to get the Rail Rifle to act like an AP2 weapon, you would have to roll 6's on the hits chart. Confusing for sure...

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
actually you would still wound on a 2+ like normal. It just allows you to wound on a 4+ on any model reguardless of Toughness rather than a 2+ on T3 or worse. So you would get a wound at 2+ against T3, 3+ against T4 and 4+ on T5 and above. The best of both worlds. Now to get the Rail Rifle to act like an AP2 weapon, you would have to roll 6's on the hits chart. Confusing for sure...

Read the rule again. It says you wound on a 4+, period, not that you wound on at least a 4+. If you have a sniper weapon it doesn't matter what STR, you wound on a 4+.

Hawkeye - Sniper weapons aren't poisoned, they have their own rule that is similar but different.

Ok, my bad. Don't give them sniper, give them precise shots.
I'd still rather have broadsides.
And if I had double force Org, I'd still rather have broadsides.

-Matt

 Peregrine wrote:

HawkeyeStryker wrote:
actually you would still wound on a 2+ like normal. It just allows you to wound on a 4+ on any model reguardless of Toughness rather than a 2+ on T3 or worse. So you would get a wound at 2+ against T3, 3+ against T4 and 4+ on T5 and above. The best of both worlds. Now to get the Rail Rifle to act like an AP2 weapon, you would have to roll 6's on the hits chart. Confusing for sure...

Read the rule again. It says you wound on a 4+, period, not that you wound on at least a 4+. If you have a sniper weapon it doesn't matter what STR, you wound on a 4+.

I did read the rule and it says it "Always Wounds on a To Wound roll of 4+ coma! reguardless of targets toughness. This means that even if you go against a, lets say, Dreadknight, like I did, I can still wound as long as I get a 4 or better. See it ALWAYS wounds on a 4+ but doesnt mean that it ONLY wounds on 4+. (this only applies to this discussion involving Sniper Drone and Rail Rifle). The problem with this Idea is every time you see a Sniper Unit, he always has a Sniper Weapon (that I know of) and that means the Weapon has the "X" under the Strength Stat. In this forum, we were just speculating as what the model would be if it had Sniper but still retained the same weapon stats as the Rail Rifle. (see above comments ^)

I agree with you 100% on any other unit that has sniping ability because it also has a weapon with "X" strength(i think?). In this situation with the Sniper ability added to the Sniper Drone, It would benefit from the Sniper rule that says ALWAYS wounds on 4+ but because it has a strength value of 6, we can ALSO wound on a lower chart. This obviously isnt a reality, but we arent talking about reality with this post.