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Hey!

With Eldrad + another farseer you could play very aggressive and still dont loose survivability.
My proposal is this:

(Just an example, but you get the picture.)
1.Eldrad with wraithguards, lock, conceal
Eldrad - fortune his squad and spam x2 eldrich storm.

2.Farseer with dire avengers, exarch, bladestorm, x2 sc
Farseer - doom, guide his squad. (dire avengers with bladestorm)


Have anyone tryed this?
Do you think this would work?

thx for your replys!

Guide is largely wasted on Bs4/BS5 DA. Doom is all you really need for DA since the exarch. Eldrich storm is pretty poor, even from eldrad. BS3 large blasts are largely a waste of points.

Pretty poor use of ~500 points. 3 DA squads would be just as survivable, same cost, and put out far more damage. Eldrad has far better uses for his powers than fortuning 4+ armor saves that can often be ignored.

Im rather new to the game, I am asking because I want to learn, so here goes:

guide on pure DA with bladestorm would give you an extra 6 shots, thats about 30% more hits.

and how are storm poor? its a large blast, and say you hit around 12 modells. That would give you 4 wounded per storm, and with doom you can add 2-3 more.
So instead of 8 wounded with two storms, you get 12-14 in one round, from only Eldrad.

And why would re-roll +3 regular and +5inv save be a waste?

Who ever hits 12 models with a Large Blast???

I only took this number so the math would be easyer. Its late :
But the % would be the same so.

With a normal DA squad you have 10 guys, an exarch with 2x catapults, and bladestorm for 152 points. Normal fire gives you 18 shots at BS4 and 4 at BS5. That gives you ~7 rerolls. At 6 points a shot, thats 42 points. The ability to cast both guide and doom is Spirit Stones and Guilde together, which is about the same. However, you dont get the bodies that additional DA would give for that 6 points/model. DA arent exactly resilient and guide's effectiveness drops off with casualties.

Eldrich storm NEVER hits 12 models. You would have to pack models together as tight as possible to hit that many. On average, a hit with a large blast template is assumed to be ~7 models. At S3 you get 2.3 wounds on T4, 1.1 wound on T5. Then .8 dead marines or .3 dead bikers after saves. You are using a 210 point model to provide that. Eldrad is used for Fortune and Doom with the occasional Guide on T3. The only time you use the other powers is if the enemy has high-point wargear (banners, Kustom Forcefield) that you need gone or they are using AV14 front battletanks or Battlewagons that you need to spin around with eldrich storm. Using those powers as general purpose damage is a waste of the points you are spending on a farseer.

Shimmershield is only in melee, where DA dont survive anyways. Taking it is a waste of points.

The 3+ save is only on one model in the whole unit. If he dies, not only do you lose the shots from him, but also bladestorm. A bladestorm exarch is ~40 points and shouldnt be taking saves unless necessary.

awsome answer, thanks alot.

What I didnt understand, was why fortune would be a waste. And spoke about +3 and +5inv on wraithguards.

but thx again!

zephoid wrote:
With a normal DA squad you have 10 guys, an exarch with 2x catapults, and bladestorm for 152 points. Normal fire gives you 18 shots at BS4 and 4 at BS5. That gives you ~7 rerolls. At 6 points a shot, thats 42 points. The ability to cast both guide and doom is Spirit Stones and Guilde together, which is about the same. However, you dont get the bodies that additional DA would give for that 6 points/model. DA arent exactly resilient and guide's effectiveness drops off with casualties.

Eldrich storm NEVER hits 12 models. You would have to pack models together as tight as possible to hit that many. On average, a hit with a large blast template is assumed to be ~7 models. At S3 you get 2.3 wounds on T4, 1.1 wound on T5. Then .8 dead marines or .3 dead bikers after saves. You are using a 210 point model to provide that. Eldrad is used for Fortune and Doom with the occasional Guide on T3. The only time you use the other powers is if the enemy has high-point wargear (banners, Kustom Forcefield) that you need gone or they are using AV14 front battletanks or Battlewagons that you need to spin around with eldrich storm. Using those powers as general purpose damage is a waste of the points you are spending on a farseer.

Shimmershield is only in melee, where DA dont survive anyways. Taking it is a waste of points.

The 3+ save is only on one model in the whole unit. If he dies, not only do you lose the shots from him, but also bladestorm. A bladestorm exarch is ~40 points and shouldnt be taking saves unless necessary.

I strongly disagree with the shimmershield comment. If you stick your DA, 10 strong, in something like area of terrain cover (im looking at you the zillion craters on gaming tables out there) to help absorb firepower you have yourself a durable unit at range and in close combat, by Eldar standards. My DAs have stayed in combat for multiple rounds with blood angels assault marines even though they had the charge! Just remember to take defend if you want to use them in that sort of objective holding manner. Also, if you are playing them defensively like I am commenting on, then you do not need to bother paying for bladestorm because, while it will help a bit with overwatch, you aren't going to get as good a value out of it as you could if you were advancing them into shooting range.

It comes down to S3 T3 vs S4 T4. You have neither weight of attacks nor power in attacks. If they are ignoring your armor, a 5+ wont do much. While you can get stuck in combat, you will not win it. If you are spending 150 points on a unit that doesnt shoot very well (just bolters pretty much), doent melee well, and isnt very survivable, what is the point.

zephoid wrote:
It comes down to S3 T3 vs S4 T4. You have neither weight of attacks nor power in attacks. If they are ignoring your armor, a 5+ wont do much. While you can get stuck in combat, you will not win it. If you are spending 150 points on a unit that doesnt shoot very well (just bolters pretty much), doent melee well, and isnt very survivable, what is the point.

150 points for an Eldar unit that can survive being assaulted + one round on average by units like TH/SS Termines! Imagine this:

5 Terminators get the charge. They would get 3 attacks/model or 15 total, but that is actually -5 because defend removes one attack from each model. Deny a challenge if it comes up since there is no chance of success with the Exarch like there would be against a normal assault marine. So, those 10 attacks are hitting half the time. 5 hits wounding on a 2+ equals 5 wounds. 1/3 chance of success on the save = a whooping 2 ish saves (balanced with the not perfect average chance of those 5 happening). Oh no! 3 dead. Meh. Then the next round there will only be 1 attack/model from that same unit, assuming you didn't break. Not bad really. Thats durable for an Eldar troop choice at their cost.

To what point? You are spending 150 points on a tarpit by your description. A tarpit that doent even work against mid ranged assault units. Why would he assault you with th/ss termies? why not just throw an assault squad or something of similar value to the DA. It might take longer for him to win, but he will win most assured. Watch what happens with Death Company on the charge: 10 models, 50A, -10, 40A, 27 hit, 22 wound, 10 unsaved wounds. Thats a generic DC squad with no upgrades or power weapons. 200 points. Thats discounting shooting beforehand

Eldar dont function that way. Each eldar unit specializes in something. DA is in mid ranged shooting. By taking it out of its element, you are losing what power it does provide for a chance at a benefit. Tarpitting delays the inevitable, but it is inevitable. If you were counting on another unit to break you out, what is stopping him from asaulting that unit too? Hell, eldar dont really have a solution to TH/SS terminators in melee anymore except harlequins, and then you are throwing this 400 point mess to kill 200 points over a few rounds of combat.

zephoid wrote:
To what point? You are spending 150 points on a tarpit by your description. A tarpit that doent even work against mid ranged assault units. Why would he assault you with th/ss termies? why not just throw an assault squad or something of similar value to the DA. It might take longer for him to win, but he will win most assured. Watch what happens with Death Company on the charge: 10 models, 50A, -10, 40A, 27 hit, 22 wound, 10 unsaved wounds. Thats a generic DC squad with no upgrades or power weapons. 200 points. Thats discounting shooting beforehand

Eldar dont function that way. Each eldar unit specializes in something. DA is in mid ranged shooting. By taking it out of its element, you are losing what power it does provide for a chance at a benefit. Tarpitting delays the inevitable, but it is inevitable. If you were counting on another unit to break you out, what is stopping him from asaulting that unit too? Hell, eldar dont really have a solution to TH/SS terminators in melee anymore except harlequins, and then you are throwing this 400 point mess to kill 200 points over a few rounds of combat.

Objective denial is critical for Eldar. Nothing can really deny for multiple turns except WG and, as I have argued for, DA. As for the point you were making, those DA's can be buffed, they can get shots in, and, if you pay for it, they could possibly bladestorm overwatch (which is decent guided) down a decent bit to deny the objective over the course of the combat. Its simply something that neither guardian squads of any sort nor rangers can manage.

DA are not spectacular at shooting or handling assaults. Their guns are simply too short range to be highly effective, though they are longer for Eldar. IMO they are the only aspect that is actually a generalist, which, depending on selected upgrades, can be moderately good at either/both shooting and assault but never great at them. Obviously psychic spells make the difference in all things Eldar; that's just how Eldar are.

Guide is best used on War Walker squadrons armed with scatter lasers or starcannons. They can shred most targets when ~75% of those S6 shots land.

DA aren't especially great at melee, but Defend is a pretty useful power that can often buy you an extra turn on an objective. Even if it just means that some DA survive in combat until your next turn so that you can throw something more effective into the fight.
I've had a few occasions where my DA's holding out that extra round meant that a Seer Council or Harlies could jump in and save the objective.

stinkbomba wrote:
awsome answer, thanks alot.

What I didnt understand, was why fortune would be a waste. And spoke about +3 and +5inv on wraithguards.

but thx again!

Wraithguard do not have a Invuln save. You have to take a Warlock with the unit and the common choice is Conceal for a 5+ Cover save. Out in the open, with Fortune from a Farseer, you get 3+ re-rollable armor saves (if the weapon allows it) and a 5+ re-rollable cover save for weapons that ignore your armor saves (Plasma, lascannons, ect), but your just completily boned against anything that doesn't allow a cover save and is AP 3 or better. You have to consider the total cost for this unit, specially if you make it troops to make is scoring, is around 600pts. Ten Wraithguard, Warlock, and Farseer.

A tip to possible get a Invuln save on your Wraithguard is to buy a Farseer with Spirit stones and the 4 cheapest powers you can. Then take the Divination powers out of the 6th ed book, as each power bought gives you a roll on the table. This gives you a 65+ percent chance to get Forewarning. This allows you to give a single unit +4 Invuln save. You then take Eldrad and make sure he Fortunes that unit and a second unit. Be warned your spending roughly 800-ish points on this and your effectivily building your army around these 13 figs and getting Forewarning is not a lock.