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It seems that with the new Dark Angels Codex, the 5th Edition SM Codex has seen it's last days on usefulness. Aside from a couple random units here or there, they now have nothing that can't be done better and/or cheaper than other codexes. With the reduced cost troops, charactors, venerable dreadnoughts, etc. etc. in the Dark Angels codex, I just don't see how anybody can build a competetive Codex: SM army anymore. It seems the far more obvious choice would be to take a BA, SW, DA, or GK army list and include a detatchment of Codex SM if you really really want a land speeder Storm (lol), Thunderfire Cannon, or 12 man drop pod.

Any thoughts? Any people out there still using the SM codex and have ideas how we can stay relevant with other codex's being able to purchase almost the exact same units for much lower points?

My scoring Sternguard lead by Pedro beg to differ. I agree that the newer codeci are more effective at doing their thing, but that's one of the tricks that vanilla marines can still pull.

Also, don't underestimate the effectiveness of Combat Tactics.

Really? the Dark Angels codex now supersedes the vanilla Codex? When did that happen?

C:SM remains a mid tier codex. As always there are several different competative builds you can make to be in a position to beat any other army.

C:SM keep to the mantra of ok at everything great at nothing. With that limitation it takes a good general and a sound list to prevail. The codex does not forgive mistakes like some ofthe stronger armies out there so you need to outplay your opponent rather than simply relying on superior army to out preform his. It's a challenge but really rewarding which is why I have always stayed with and will continue to play C:SM.

Thunderfire Cannons, Combat Tactics, 40 point TH/SS Termies and Null Zone are 4 very compelling reasons to stick with vanilla marines.

As everyone else has said, if you want to play a power codex go somewhere else. C:SM is still the swiss army knife and can put out good builds. Thats enough for me, i like a challenge.

Codex Marines offer a lot that other books don't. The TFC is one such option. Vulkan and Pedro are other strong choices, since Vulkan gives the list the most reliable anti-armor of any codex and Pedro makes Sternguard (one of the best units in the book) scoring. They also have strong codex powers which newer books aren't going to have. While their powers aren't great for nuking squads like Jaws, they offer a significant amount of reliability and, most importantly, consistency (since you don't need to roll for them). Force Dome, Gate, and Null Zone are all extremely powerful utility spells that can be devestating at times, Dome gives allied blobs insane survivability, Gate gives slower squads mobility, and Null Zone is a decent soft counter to several that rely on high invulnerable saves. They also have cheaper scoring bikers than Ravenwing (whether or not SM bikers remains better than pure Ravenwing remains to be seen), combat tactics if they don't take a special character, access to Storm Talons (which many argue are better for their points than Dark Talons or Nephilim). And, for 40 points, their Hammernators are extremely competitive, if non-scoring.

Heck, if you compare directly with DA, I would say that Sternguard alone are enough of a reason for a listbuilder to turn to codex marines over DA.

Who didn't expect CA to outstrip all the other astartes codices? It's fine with me really, we'd have major problems if the codex written for 6th was not as good as those written for 5th.

It's a better dex in 6th than it ever was in 5th. It's worth noting that C:SM tactical squads are the same price as the DA ones, or close to it, with the same options, you just get them for free/cheaper in the C:SM books.

Combat Tactics is huge in this edition, since you don't take No Retreat wounds anymore, water style Tactical Marines backed up by heavy shooting (which they have always done well, now even better with the TFC being awesome) and good CC support from TH/SS terminators are a realyl

Also, they do a more efficient bike army than Raven wing, with cheaper options, less bells and whistles mind you, but pound for pound you get more bodies which makes them more competitive.

I'd say it's better than the BA dex, which is much newer and has not aged well by comparison.

C:SM *is* better than the BA dex. Considerably better.

Combat Tactics > Stubborn > jank that BA get

I'd rather ally in DA into my SM at this point rather then other way around. Combat tactics is that much fun.

As everyone else has been saying, Combat Tactics combined with ATSKNF is really damn good, and normal C:SM is the only codex that gets it. Your tactical marines are basically never going to be in close combat for longer than one round, because they will then fall back a little bit and then shoot the enemy to death, rinse and repeat as necessary. Vulkan and Pedro have viable tournament builds. The Librarians can take the codex powers before their next revision takes Gate of Infinity and Nullzone away from them. DA fliers are overpriced even compared to Stormtalons.

I'd second all the comments above, but as a Crimson Fists player, Pedro and scoring Sternguard seal the deal for me

Lysander must suck too, compared to the DA codex right?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Lysander must suck too, compared to the DA codex right?

Lysander can be taken as an ally along with many other things mentioned in this thread (Thunderfire, non scoring sternguard, TH/SS Terminators, etc.). Pointed that out in the OP.

But I thought your point was that the Dark Angels codex invalidated the presence of the vanilla Codex? I guess the Dark Angels are good at somethings, like the Blood Angels are good at something else, etc.



Its called specializations. Some chapters are better than others for certain things. the vanilla chapters are ok at everything.

Why is it everytime a new codex comes out, Chicken Littles bare their heads?

 Nasakenai wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Lysander must suck too, compared to the DA codex right?

Lysander can be taken as an ally along with many other things mentioned in this thread (Thunderfire, non scoring sternguard, TH/SS Terminators, etc.). Pointed that out in the OP.

Vanilla can ally in DA as well.

I'd love to see a 6 ironclad plus 2 power field list in action.

 Gavin Thorne wrote:
My scoring Sternguard lead by Pedro beg to differ. I agree that the newer codeci are more effective at doing their thing, but that's one of the tricks that vanilla marines can still pull.

Also, don't underestimate the effectiveness of Combat Tactics.

I would love to see your sternguard list. I have recently started playing with 2 stern squads and it seems a bit tricky.
Any advice?

 Nasakenai wrote:
It seems that with the new Dark Angels Codex, the 5th Edition SM Codex has seen it's last days on usefulness. Aside from a couple random units here or there, they now have nothing that can't be done better and/or cheaper than other codexes. With the reduced cost troops, charactors, venerable dreadnoughts, etc. etc. in the Dark Angels codex, I just don't see how anybody can build a competetive Codex: SM army anymore. It seems the far more obvious choice would be to take a BA, SW, DA, or GK army list and include a detatchment of Codex SM if you really really want a land speeder Storm (lol), Thunderfire Cannon, or 12 man drop pod.

Any thoughts? Any people out there still using the SM codex and have ideas how we can stay relevant with other codex's being able to purchase almost the exact same units for much lower points?

Wow @ this post.

First of all, Codex: SM has the cheapest TH/SS Terminators to this day.

Second, Codex: SM has some of the best psychic powers in laid out in a buffet format for you to select for your enjoyment rather than rolling like some pleb on a failure lottery.

Third, Codex: SM has Sternguard.

Fourth, you have 2 SCs with EW, DA has one.

Fifth, with one SC, you can get TL Melta/Flamer on everything and MC Thunder Hammers. Gee, Meltas awesome, Flamer just got buffed, Terminators just got buffed. Fill your army out with Flamers, Meltas, and a squad of TH/SS Termies FTW with a Librarian just for show?

Calgar vs any Codex: DA SC, ready? DA Codex's AP3 Power Swords bounce off Marneus' Terminator Armor. Calgar punches them in the face 5 times with S8 Power Fists, each one causes instant death and your 200 point SC only has a 4+ invulnerable save between you and "Slay the Warlord."

Thariinye wrote:
As everyone else has been saying, Combat Tactics combined with ATSKNF is really damn good, and normal C:SM is the only codex that gets it. Your tactical marines are basically never going to be in close combat for longer than one round, because they will then fall back a little bit and then shoot the enemy to death, rinse and repeat as necessary. Vulkan and Pedro have viable tournament builds. The Librarians can take the codex powers before their next revision takes Gate of Infinity and Nullzone away from them. DA fliers are overpriced even compared to Stormtalons.

Where did they say they are taking nullzone and gate of infinity away?

We dont get cheaper troops. Once youve added any sort of weapons/upgrades to our Tac squads they are actually more expensive.

lynxstrife wrote:

Thariinye wrote:
As everyone else has been saying, Combat Tactics combined with ATSKNF is really damn good, and normal C:SM is the only codex that gets it. Your tactical marines are basically never going to be in close combat for longer than one round, because they will then fall back a little bit and then shoot the enemy to death, rinse and repeat as necessary. Vulkan and Pedro have viable tournament builds. The Librarians can take the codex powers before their next revision takes Gate of Infinity and Nullzone away from them. DA fliers are overpriced even compared to Stormtalons.

Where did they say they are taking nullzone and gate of infinity away?

They haven't said it anywhere, I'm just assuming that in whatever new codex the normal space marines get, they'll have to roll on either the generic psychic tables or get their own specialized psychic table(s), instead of the current situation where they can just pick the good powers instead of

rolling like some pleb on a failure lottery.

lynxstrife wrote:

Thariinye wrote:
As everyone else has been saying, Combat Tactics combined with ATSKNF is really damn good, and normal C:SM is the only codex that gets it. Your tactical marines are basically never going to be in close combat for longer than one round, because they will then fall back a little bit and then shoot the enemy to death, rinse and repeat as necessary. Vulkan and Pedro have viable tournament builds. The Librarians can take the codex powers before their next revision takes Gate of Infinity and Nullzone away from them. DA fliers are overpriced even compared to Stormtalons.

Where did they say they are taking nullzone and gate of infinity away?

I don't think anyone has said anything concrete, but look at the writing on the wall. All the new books seem to be "roll on the chart" rather then the old "pick what you want" style. I hope that I'll still be able to pick my powers with the next codex, but have pretty much resigned myself to having to roll once that day comes. Or more accurately, shelving my librarians again. They had a good run in 5th, they could use a vacation.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
Thunderfire Cannons, Combat Tactics, 40 point TH/SS Termies and Null Zone are 4 very compelling reasons to stick with vanilla marines.

those 4 are strong enough to probably keep the codex playable till 7th edition.

also some of their SC are sick.

Combat tactics is good.

Vulcan is still king og kings. Same with the yellow one.

They have exelent ally options.

The fast attacks choises are not so bad, both land speeders and attack bikes.

I'd also say that C SM have the advantage of having access to pretty much every marine model that Forge World has put out. Very few of them are chapter specific, and almost invariably state available for use in Codex Marine Chapters. Given the influx of Forge World units and their growing acceptance this offers many additional options (albeit expensive ones) to any Codex marine player.

Vanilla Bike armies are cheaper than Ravenwing bike armies.

I don't see why it would be out of date. They write codices to give you rules to play with your models and it still does a good job at that. If your looking for the cheesiest book to build the dirtiest list then look elsewhere, but GW are trying to pull the reins in on codex creep so we'd hope eventually we will get a more even playing field and then C:SM starts to look like pretty good value seeing as its packed full of different units and 50% longer than every other book.

For model/painter options C:SM or IG are still the 2 best codex to play just for unit variant. I think I have seen every unit in C:SM fielded in a competitive list at one point. I don't think there is any other codex that can say that.