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Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

I posted something like this a few years ago and though I would post it once more. Basic what I want to know is how do you go about giving advice when someone asks about a list. I have seen a lot of people post a list and ask advice and then the next half dozen people tear apart the list totally rebuilding it to their own taste, a lot of the time not taking the OP in consideration. I am going to do this in two parts.
First: What I would like from those who give advice.
Second: How I go about giving advice.

Asking for Help or at least to Show off my List:
I usually start by giving some information like, this is a for Fun List or I have a upcoming Game up and I want to know were a few places were there is a need for something. I will also say weather or not I have the models or I am planning on purchasing/buying the models. I also sometimes will post a list wanting options on a single or small number of squads. This one usually goes bad as I get two pages on every unit but the one I asked about.
I am also very hard on myself when it comes to WYSIWYG and my models so usually when I post a list I already have the models built, I will start making sure this is noted in the introduction.
As a note these are my Armies
Space Wolves [since 1st Edition/Rouge Trader Days]
Space Marines [since 1st Edition/Rouge Trader Days]
Imperial Guard [since 1st Edition/Rouge Trader Days]
Grey Knights [Since 2nd Edition]
Dark angels [Since 3rd Edition]
Blood Angels [Since 5th Edition]
Chaos Space Marines [This is my new 6th Edition Army]

Now to the part I started writing this about

Giving Advice:

This is were I think most of fail on. I have actually changed how I give advice.
Fist some Definitions as I read them:
Tournament List: This is a list to go and win in a competition. I stay away from these nowadays. One I have no clue of the local Meta and I would hate to give advice that gets the player crust under waves of armor when I helped build a list to take on hordes. Two is I really don’t like the environments that most tournaments take pace in.
Take on All-Comers: This is a list obviously meant to take on any army. This is another one I stay away from because my Local Meta is mostly Marines of some flavor, with some Orks and Nids. I cant tell you how to win vs. Dark Eldar or Necrons as I have never faced them.
Competitive List: This is a strong list to play vs. someone else’s Competitive List. Some of these can be Cheese or WAAC. This is another I usually just lurk and read them only something when I see a rules violation and then usually only with Space Wolves.
Non-Competitive List: These are one of my Favorites. Mostly because I get to see some interesting units being pulled out you never usually see. That or the player just wants to experiment, which I always feel is a good thing.
For Fun List: This actually is what I mostly do nowadays. The list is usually about pulling out cool looking Figures or units you just want to try with no expeditions of Victory, only pushing Plastic and Blowing Up!
Fluffy List: This is obviously a list build to a theme. These are similar to the Fun List, but these usably have a more competitive nature, but the player is more concerned about “Narrative” than Victory.
Tried and True List: These are list players have played and done well with.

Now this is how I give advice:
When I read the post or even the title to see what I am getting into, is it supposed to be a Super-Competitive or is the player looking to just have fun. Then I try to see what he is looking for in the way of advice on, is it just on a few units or is it the whole list? Are they looking for a complete overhaul or just tweaking? Have they already build the Models and making a list to fit around them or are they building a list and then are planning on getting models? [Something I think a lot of people don’t take in account or don’t bother posting to start with]

Then I usually then only make some minor suggestions, like changing some Wargear or changing some units around. I also usually give a reason for such not just that “That Guy Sucks!” I get a lot of that and it usually puts me in a defensive mode derailing the thread for a page and a half as I defend my choice.
I also usually praise units that I usually don’t see, like Long Fangs without Missile Launchers.
One of the other things I don’t do unless the OP ask is Post your own List, I have been seeing a lot of these recently.

Then we get to what could be a few touchy subjects:
Special Characters:

I have seen a lot of advice about getting rid of Special Characters on a list. I tent to not do that, when some puts a Special Character in a list it is usually for a reason, and I try to respect that.

Tried and True List:
I have one when I post the latest version I get two pages of “That is a Horrid List, You Can Never Win With That List!” or “My Necron Flying Wedge Of Doom Would Mop You Up On Turn One!” this is another one that I tread lighting on when I see them. I don’t know the local meta so I really cant say anything other than maybe making minor suggestion.

Mathhammer:
I loath Mathhammer, I know it has its place, but I try to avoid it. It makes some people’s head hurt and there is no better way to derail a thread than 2-3 people taking over a tread with Mathhammer. As a list poster I hate this, but I will leave this to another thread. I will put it this way; I trust Real World experience over Mathhammer.

High Cost Units:
I have noticed that a lot of people the first thing they do is look at a list and see a high priced model and say “That model is to Expensive, I could by a whole Squad for that price” or “Why Buy a model for that many points when one shot can kill all of those points.” one more is “Why did you pay that much for that one Squad I could buy 3 for that cost.”

I will sum it up with this: When I give advice I try to disrupt the OP’s list as much as possible, only giving advice to make sure they are within the rules and try to keep it to its original theme. With the exception of Drop Pods; Its all or nothing with them, one Pod will die.

I know this is overly long and I probably rambled a little, but I would to hear what goes on in your brain when you give advice.


Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

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Made in us
Battleship Captain





NYC

If I see a list I find bad, I follow a few simple steps:

1. Berate them as a player and person
2. Tell them their army sucks
3. Remind them specifically which units suck the most.
4. Send them a copy of my list, and tell them to make theirs look like it.
5. Done.

Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06

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Made in us
Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm





Riverside CA

 TheCaptain wrote:
If I see a list I find bad, I follow a few simple steps:

1. Berate them as a player and person
2. Tell them their army sucks
3. Remind them specifically which units suck the most.
4. Send them a copy of my list, and tell them to make theirs look like it.
5. Done.

Space Wolf Player Since 1989
My First Impression Threads:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727226.page;jsessionid=3BCA26863DCC17CF82F647B2839DA6E5

I am a Furry that plays with little Toy Soldiers; if you are taking me too seriously I am not the only one with Issues.

IEGA Web Site”: http://www.meetup.com/IEGA-InlandEmpireGamersAssociation/ 
   
Made in es
Drone without a Controller





Spain

When I am getting advice:
I always ask for the most candid and uncensored advice, i.e. if that unit sucks, tell me it sucks. Don't beat around the bush saying, 'It might work if you work it like y, but only if there's x and z in the game, etc. etc.'

When someone asks me:
I tell them what I know and as candidly as possible:
-I don't know this army at all.
-I don't know this army well, but I can give you x pointers.
-Yeah... that list sucks, and I know this army well. Change x for y, z for a and b for c.

   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

First step is to make sure the list is actually legal. While I don't doublecheck every point cost, I do point out the ones I know are wrong off the top of my head, and point out FOC violations or incorrect war gear.

Second is to figure out where they are coming from, and what kind of list they are trying to make. Generally if they put it in the list, it is there for a reason. While not every list is themed, a lot are. Codex marines can be built a lot of different ways. While I personally like a flexible, little bit of everything Ultramarine list, I realize that they are just a small slice of codex lists.

If they list a chapter of marines, take the fluff into account. While I think power fists are overpriced, I won't give any son of Dorn flack for taking one. Salamanders are always good with things that burn. On the other hand, sometimes Salamanders need something with a range more then 12", and not every Crimson Fist is a Pedro/sternguard drop list.

If someone wants to use something that's a little sub-par, I will point out the flaws with it. Most of them can be worked around, but only if you acknowledge them. If you want to use vanguard vets, that's fine, but try adding a few locator beacons to your list to maximize their heroic intervention rule.

I try to be open with my bias. I'm a firm believer in minimal war gear, boys before toys. But I admit this, and recognize that others do things differently.

The actual meat of list evaluation is to make sure it can do everything. I have an informal checklist:

Can you get scoring units to objectives, and have them survive to the end of the game?

Can you deal with-
Heavy armor (AV14)
Multiple light-medium armor (transports, speeders, etc)
Hordes
Monstrous creatures (High T, multiple wound models)
Flyers

Does your way to deal with anything on that list have a single point of failure? Do you have one thing as your only answer for multiple problems? If so, you might want to get some redundancy.

I will admit to helping out more in "fun" lists and not necessarily posting when people are asking for competitive tournament advice. Part of any list tuning takes the local meta into account, which is something strangers on the internet halfway around the world can't help with. And at the end of the day, things like the selection of terrain at your local club, or the mood of your scatter die will have more impact on your chance of victory then deciding between a MM bike or land speeder.

I just try to make sure the list doesn't have any glaring flaws, and that the person who posted it has something they will enjoy playing.

   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





 TheCaptain wrote:
If I see a list I find bad, I follow a few simple steps:

1. Berate them as a player and person
2. Tell them their army sucks
3. Remind them specifically which units suck the most.
4. Send them a copy of my list, and tell them to make theirs look like it.
5. Done.


Nicely Done/\

Generally if I am providing list help I will spread what i know and what works for me.

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