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The basic idea is to put Belial in a Deathwing Command Squad with the banner of devastation. The squad then deepstrikes without scatter so it is within 6 inches of bolter equipped scout squads infiltrating 18 inches away from the enemy. The scouts can then put out 4 bolter shots each with a 24 inch range each. Now the obviously it only works that perfectly if you can go first. I think Coteaz is best ally to improve the odds, although I haven't exhaustively checked every codex or forgeworld. Combi-melta vets in a drop pod or lascannon devastators can provide first turn anti-vehicle firepower.

The real question is that unless you have the luck of leafblower, you will be going second at some point You can probably box your opponent to keep them within salvo range, but it will be harder to keep all the scouts with 6 inches of the banner. It also probably means eating a turn of shooting before you can strike.

Anti-flyer weapons are probably limited unless you want to put on flakk missiles or ally in a stormraven with coteaz, but overly flier heavy lists will be at risk for being tabled turn 1 if they don't have enough units on the table.

An interesting idea, could be fun but not competitive. As pointed out in other threads, precision shot is common and the banner would be a huge kill me target.

I think they only way the banner competitively is really going to work well is when its parked on a small command squad in a Landraider. I'm running mine in a venerable land raider with a Techmarine to keep it running smoothly. Making my opponent reroll explosive results on pens is priceless.

Belial is far too expensive to be competitive with his crappy loadout. GW really blew this.
Deathwing is just too expensive to be competitive. 1 wound models over 40 points a piece aren't worth running.

Precision shots are not going to get through 2+/3++ and 4+ LOS and 5+FNP barring absurdly bad luck. The only unit that could snipe out the Banner is the Vindicare, but you can simply kill it first turn. Belial costs a mere 10 more points than an equivalently equipped C:SM captain with TH/SS, and can perform a deathwing assault and has 2 great special rules. Deathwing are a little expensive, but one command squad isn't going to break the bank.

I am more worried about keeping the scouts alive than FNP terminators.

scimitar wrote:
Precision shots are not going to get through 2+/3++ and 4+ LOS and 5+FNP barring absurdly bad luck. The only unit that could snipe out the Banner is the Vindicare, but you can simply kill it first turn. Belial costs a mere 10 more points than an equivalently equipped C:SM captain with TH/SS, and can perform a deathwing assault and has 2 great special rules. Deathwing are a little expensive, but one command squad isn't going to break the bank.

I am more worried about keeping the scouts alive than FNP terminators.

The guy with the banner is not a character, so no look out sir. Just a little luck and he's gone in turn one, less luck and he's gone by turn 3.

As for the idea, I wouldn't run this banner for 10 scouts, personally I would want to get some tacticals or bikers benefiting from it. If I take a banner in a deathwing command squad, personally it's either Fortitude to give a deathwing list FNP within 12" or the DW company banner for the +1A. Just my 2 cents

Problem is scouts are only bs3, so you really are not maxing out the potential of the standard at all. IMO the banner works best with a tide of green marines or with bikes. Either way I think all banner lists are super gimicky and ironically are hard countered to the Helldrake which is very common right now.

smee wrote:
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The guy with the banner is not a character, so no look out sir. Just a little luck and he's gone in turn one, less luck and he's gone by turn 3.

As for the idea, I wouldn't run this banner for 10 scouts, personally I would want to get some tacticals or bikers benefiting from it. If I take a banner in a deathwing command squad, personally it's either Fortitude to give a deathwing list FNP within 12" or the DW company banner for the +1A. Just my 2 cents

You are right about no LOS save, I mistakenly thought you could put the banner on champion. I'm still not seeing the huge risk of precision shots though. Even assuming a character is carrying a plasma pistol, that is only a 3.8% chance of killing the banner. Are there any popular characters with terminator hunting ranged weapons I am missing?


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 Red Corsair wrote:
Problem is scouts are only bs3, so you really are not maxing out the potential of the standard at all. IMO the banner works best with a tide of green marines or with bikes. Either way I think all banner lists are super gimicky and ironically are hard countered to the Helldrake which is very common right now.

A scout shooting his bolter has 85.7% of the firepower per point versus a tactical. However a scout can get off the full 4 shot salvo starting from turn one by infiltrating into position. Tacticals have to move within 24 inches first but can't use salvo when they move. That typically means they aren't shooting until turn 3. Bikers have relentless but are even less cost effective than scouts with regards to firepower and still take at least one turn to get into position.

The helldrake is definitely a serious problem. No DA list other than deathwing would be happy to deal with it. The banner itself is safe, but the units clustering around it aren't. The sensible option is to simply spread out and accept less shooting. At least with the alpha strike concept you can still get in one massive turn of shooting under the banner if you go first.

The list itself is definitely gimmicky and would be pretty weird vs all deepstrike armies like deathwing or daemons.

scimitar wrote:
I'm still not seeing the huge risk of precision shots though. Even assuming a character is carrying a plasma pistol, that is only a 3.8% chance of killing the banner. Are there any popular characters with terminator hunting ranged weapons I am missing?

Scout Sergeant Telion is pretty decent given his chance to rend, and Vindicare Assassins are of course awesome, but aside from that there isn't that much.

The idea is not going to work properly. Scouts have BS 3. You will need lots of bolter wielding Scouts to benefit from the banner. Then its better to keep the Scouts safe and cover their advance instead of leaving them in a position where they are eventually cut off from help from your other forces.

Dark angel bikers all have scout though. You will be in range of something 1st turn.


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A better alpha strike in my view is 2 or 3 dakka terminator squads dropping in on turn 1 ideally with belial dropping somewhere your opponent wasn't expecting

If we absolutely positively want to destroy some squad/tank/other thing that is not a huge blob, we can always put squad of company veterans in a drop pod. And give them combi-weapons appropriate to their job.

You hate particular vehicle? melta will do the job. You hate MEQ/TEQ unit? give them plasma. or melta. Whatever you like. If target is squishy, flamer may do the job as well.

This is of course kinda suicidal, but can grant you First Blood Secondary Objective, kill particular unit you don't like or at least serve as distraction.
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Shooty terminators are good, especially with their Vengeful Strike, but still they can't pack a lot of heavy weapons, at least they overwhelm enemy with sheer weight of dice. 16 Storm Bolter shots and 8 Assault Cannon shots, all twin linked, isn't as impressive as what Guard or Orks do, but at least it's not as suicidal as my proposal (although also nowhere near as cheap. 10 termies is almost 500pts)