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I've been seeing this in and around forums for a little while now and I have to say I really don't see it. How exactly are the ogres over-powered compared to the other 8th edition codex's? I know the monsterous infantry rules of 8th gave them a boost but I'm not seeing how an army that's typically going to number less than 40 models at 2000 points (barring gnoblars) is considered wildly op. Not looking for flames or hate, really looking for reasoned responses that don't boil down to "I can't beat them so they are over-powered". I spent years as an ogre player getting the tar kicked out of me cause the games rules all seemed to play against me and now that I find my army is on relatively balanced terms with the rest of them I have to listen to cries of my book being OP.....so yeah, really wanna hear how that's justified.

They aren't considered OP, they are just considered the top codex of 8th with the balance rules. Unlike 7th, where being the top meant you could only be touched by the second or third top, in 8th it means your balanced, but good, with a far reach of options.

They are not an OP book.

Things like gutstar or bunches of mournfangs are what some people think are OP.

~xalfej

 xalfej wrote:
They are not an OP book.

Things like gutstar or bunches of mournfangs are what some people think are OP.

~xalfej

Which I've funnily enough, beaten with ogre bulls.

I think most people are used to monstrous infantry being horrifically weak from 7th, or they're overawed by the stature and rules of ogres.

Slaughtermasters with armor is still disturbing to me. And makes tyrants useless.

They have about the best cannon in the game. Which I'm not sure if it fits them.

They got one of the best MC in the game and it's really crazy good.

They have one of the best ranged infantry units in the game.


They really only have a few units that aren't super. Not bad. Just not super. Most armies still have units where you're like, if I was starving and this unit came up with some bacon pot pie, I'd tell him to fudge off and have a real unit send it.

This I think will depend a lot on where you go and who you play, as clearly different people have different perceptions. In the UK, for example, Ogres are widely regarded as being pretty overpowered and as a result are usually the most represented army at tournaments. At one event last year I remember the top 3 tables being Ogres vs Ogres, Ogres vs Ogres and Ogres vs Skaven going into the last couple of rounds, and there were 5 Ogre players who qualified for the most recent Masters (the Masters is played between the top 16 ranked players in the country) although only 4 took part.

There are a few main reasons for this. The first is that beyond magic (which can be alleviated by the Runemaw), the book doesn't really have many weaknesses- the Gutstar doesn't like ballistic skill shooting, but that's relatively rare in the game.

Mournfang are far too cost-efficient, and way too easy to use. The amount of damage they can put out is pretty horrific (D3 impact hits, 7 attacks per model), and T4 3W and 2+ armour means they're pretty tough to bring down if you don't have your own heavily armoured units to deal with them. The Parry save is pretty obnoxious on them.

They have excellent magic, whether through their own magic lore or DeathFisting. As has already been mentioned, it looks like part of the drawback of Ogres is meant to be relatively low leadership, but unfortunately this can be blocked almost completely by taking a level 4 in a Gutstar with Standard of Discipline to get a LD9 Wizard Lord who also has pretty decent stats in combat (this is in no way limited to Ogres, but they do benefit from it more than some other armies).

The Gutstar can roll over an awful lot of things in combat, especially if you run it 3 wide with a front rank of Ws10 -1 to hit Slaughtermaster, tanky BSB and champion so that it takes no damage then dishes out a load in return and has a load of ranks for static combat res (basically, the Bretonnian effect). Add in a Crown of Command and it becomes very difficult to even flank and beat.

Ironblasters are extremely accurate, and have a very forgiving misfire table. Being able to move and shoot also gives you a big leg up should you run into other artillery, as you can deploy yours hiding so it can't be shot and then walk out and shoot their cannons. It's also pretty handy being able to move to hit stuff that is trying to hide, or getting flank shots down cavalry.

Sabretusks are extremely annoying at 21pts each. Causing fear gives them a massive leg-up again other chaff, not only are they much cheaper but they also don't take terror tests.

These are the main offenders really, Maneaters and Leadbelchers are pretty good but not OTT. For the most part though, being able to spam MFang + Ironblasters + Gutstar with a small unit of bulls to round out the core and the characters to taste is more than enough to create an overly cost-efficient list. They're an over-centralising force in the metagame.

I happen to play ogres and have had 3 games with them since I started.

I wasn't aware of their power level or perceived OPness when I started, I just picked an army I liked the look of and had a playstyle that appealed to me. The fact that you don't need a lot of models to make them work appealed as well.

Since playing them, I agree that they are a strong army as I have done well in all the games I have played so far. But I wouldn't say they were overpowered.

But then, I haven't tried using stonehorns, thundertusks, maneaters, sabretusks or ironblasters yet.....

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They aren't considered OP, they are just considered the top codex of 8th with the balance rules. Unlike 7th, where being the top meant you could only be touched by the second or third top, in 8th it means your balanced, but good, with a far reach of options.

They are certaintly not the top army book.

Upper tier for sure, but solidly behind Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Daemons, WoC, and VCs.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They aren't considered OP, they are just considered the top codex of 8th with the balance rules. Unlike 7th, where being the top meant you could only be touched by the second or third top, in 8th it means your balanced, but good, with a far reach of options.

They are certaintly not the top army book.

Upper tier for sure, but solidly behind Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Daemons, WoC, and VCs.

By that I meant of the new 8th edition codex. Not overall, also VC's are actually considered below 8th edition ogres, due in part to the changes in magic for them.

There are a few main reasons for this. The first is that beyond magic (which can be alleviated by the Runemaw), the book doesn't really have many weaknesses- the Gutstar doesn't like ballistic skill shooting, but that's relatively rare in the game.

It also don't like magic, I don't tend to take the gutstar because it usually ends up being ineffective due to maneuvering and being a huge, magical target.

The Gutstar can roll over an awful lot of things in combat, especially if you run it 3 wide with a front rank of Ws10 -1 to hit Slaughtermaster, tanky BSB and champion so that it takes no damage then dishes out a load in return and has a load of ranks for static combat res (basically, the Bretonnian effect). Add in a Crown of Command and it becomes very difficult to even flank and beat.

And then it dies to dwellers or purple sun, or is magicked down by debuffs, while the enemy is majorly buffed up.

 tmarichards wrote:
There are a few main reasons for this.

You forgot the most important.

They are cheap to buy and easy to paint.

They are (-) powered.

And then it dies to dwellers or purple sun, or is magicked down by debuffs, while the enemy is majorly buffed up.

Why Ogres are strong:

Core that actually kills stuff (Gutstar)
Most killy Monstrous cav
Cheap chaff in Sabertusks
Cannon/Chariots that are hard to pick off
Hellheart

And on a note of the deathfisting thing, can't be done anymore, check their errata, it's melee only

Ogres are a pretty solid army yes, however they are not untouchable, haven't lost a game against them yet with MSU WoC.

I'm on the side of rather OP.

However, I think this is due to what the Ogre Kingdoms book is... its the beginner book.
The book is designs so that, even if you have no clue what you are doing, you will at the least fair well. There are no real bad choices in the book, and everything is either a little too cheap, or a little too forgiving. They don't have unit synergy (basically each unit is great on its own) And if you screw up it doesn't hurt you badly. (cannon misfire/re-rolls are very forgiving, not to mention if you accidentally let the enemy chaff near, oh wait is a chariot with a monster riding it...) Not to mention lead belches which miraculously don't suffer the usual minus's for rapid firing, and unlike every other ranged unit in the game.... are still monsters in combat...

Basically it is the army which costs the least to play, can be painted decently if you've never painted a model in your life, and can win most non-tournament games with just a hint of strategy.

It's warhammer with training wheels. Its great for a new player, gets them interested in the game so that when they are ready to take the game off "easy" mode they can buy a real army. (after all, if every new player had to fork over GW costs and play with the learning curve of wood elves, it would be much harder to convince someone the game was fun)

Vermillion wrote:
And on a note of the deathfisting thing, can't be done anymore, check their errata, it's melee only

Unfortunately not, as the GW FAQ team appear to spend more time licking their windows than addressing issues. Both of the following are from the current Ogres FAQ:

Page 62 – Greedy Fist, second paragraph.
Change the last sentence to “In addition, an enemy Wizard
loses a Wizard level and a randomly selected spell each time
they are hit in close combat by an Ogre wearing the Greedy
Fist.”

Q: If a Wizard is hit by a ranged attack from the bearer of the
Greedy Fist, does it lose a Wizard Level? (p62)
A: Yes.

The latter is *probably* meant to have been taken out similar to how the line stopping the Teleporting Dragon was *probably* meant to be left in the main Rulebook FAQ (gogo GW quality control...), but as it stands you can still DeathFist at range >.<

hey don't have unit synergy (basically each unit is great on its own) And if you screw up it doesn't hurt you badly. (cannon misfire/re-rolls are very forgiving, not to mention if you accidentally let the enemy chaff near, oh wait is a chariot with a monster riding it...) Not to mention lead belches which miraculously don't suffer the usual minus's for rapid firing, and unlike every other ranged unit in the game.... are still monsters in combat...

Are you kidding me? No Synergy? An independent ogre group is usually dead, steadfast usually will prevent a singular group (unless a gutstar) from beating it down, not to mention they are expensive! Losses due to powerful units, magic, or enemy artillery can make an ogres group suffer.

It's warhammer with training wheels. Its great for a new player, gets them interested in the game so that when they are ready to take the game off "easy" mode they can buy a real army.

...

i agree that the ogres are very much a synergy dependant army. if you send a unit off by itself, it generally gets eaten up fast. ogres need to advance at the same time and hit the same spot. at the same time, and *generally* do the same thing. otherwise, the low model count = low unit count, and that means other armies can overwhelm and take them down. ive lost my gutstar unit, or even a bull horde in combat a few times because i sent them in solo, they got flank and front charged, and couldnt handle the static combat rez, lost by 5 and got run down. same for mournfangs, ironblasters, maneaters, leadies, etc. if they work close with other units they are amazing. by themselves and a smart opponent can isolate and take them down fast.

ill also point out that "training wheels" is not accurate. they are also NOT the cheapest army to buy just because they are larger and fewer figs. a SINGLE character costs upwards of 50$ sometimes, a unit of 3-4 guys is about the same as 20 chaos warriors, and we still need multiple boxes to make an army. the ony saving grace on the cost end, is 90% of the ogres on foot all use the same torso and legs, and the arms, heads and accsessorys are all interchangable. so its pretty easy to turn a box of bulls into IG or leadies, given the bitz. painting wise, larger models tend to show crappy paintjobs more, and a rushed paintjob on ogres just looks bad, even more so then one on say skaven or empire. - but they DO tend to look awsome when done well, and the lower model count means one can actually dedicate some proper time to painting them, having only 30 or so models vrs the possible 100+ of other armies.

magic and LD are weaknesses, and while able to mitigate through magic items, those items cost alot and usually require expensive characters to field them. yea the lvl 4 slaughtermaster is a beast.... but he is also 285 pts NAKED for the lvl 4 version, much more then other lvl 4 wizards, and even some special characters. for that kind of investment, he BETTER be a darn good caster and have a strong stat bar to boot.

I love ogres. But they aren't nearly as synergistic as other armies. They are T4 W3 units who are at least close to cost-effective against nearly anything in the game. LD bubble is not the definition of synergy.

Compare that to TK who literally will die without their heirophant and are pretty sucktastic without the right magic. That is synergy.

If you just rolled the dice and took random units from Ogres, you'd lose, but it wouldn't be horrible. If you did that with O&G or TK, you'd get smeared.

Ogres may not be reliant on Synergy, but they do have it within the army to make themselves stronger. And if you wish to be any sort of competitive you will need to take advantage of it.

I love ogres. But they aren't nearly as synergistic as other armies. They are T4 W3 units who are at least close to cost-effective against nearly anything in the game. LD bubble is not the definition of synergy.

Flanking, movement, and attacking still involves synergy. Rolling troops into individual blocks is not synergy.

Compare that to TK who literally will die without their heirophant and are pretty sucktastic without the right magic. That is synergy.

Right, because you can take 8 troops to one ogre, not to mention you've got far more synergy due to how the army works (Tomb princes and the like) It's more based around synergy then ogres to win, but that does not mean you can charge an individual group (Not a gutstar) into a giant block, and expect to win. Ogre's still rely on attacking properly, using units together, blocking flank lanes, along with dealing with magic, like TK's boosted Usekhp Incantion of Desiccation.

TK has Far more powerful magic than ogres due to Heirotitans, and the Casket of souls, along with cheaper mages. It's not exactly cut and dried that ogre's are going to roll things over.

If you just rolled the dice and took random units from Ogres, you'd lose, but it wouldn't be horrible. If you did that with O&G or TK, you'd get smeared.

TK yes, O&G no, the only real bad unit there is snotlings, they also have unique heroes worth using, unlike ogre's and their worthless ones.