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Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Just to clarify I did not make the list below I just agree with it and think it is correct:

Spoiler:
Lower Tier


By no means completely useless, can even win tournaments, but have a limited range of viable tactics and lack super powerful or seriously underpriced units.

Beastmen (updated February 2010) - Their latest armybook, released just before the arrival of the 8th edition Warhammer rules, is generally regarded as a complete flop. Poor magic lore, overpriced monsters, unimpressive core units, and not all that exciting to play. Many people don't like their new models either. As with all armies, they can still do well in the hands of a skilled player, but don't expect it to be easy.

Wood Elves - An old and slightly outdated army book. Wood elf units tend to be highly maneuverable but expensive and fragile. They can struggle to damage tough or heavily armoured opponents. There is only one really good army build for Wood Elves - lvl4 Spellweaver with lore of life, noble with hail of doom, treeman or two, 6 treekin, eagle or two, lots of glade guard and dryads. This doesn't leave too much room for variety and experimentation. *Should get a new armybook in 2013 (rumoured to be already completed).

Bretonnians - Another old armybook. Can be effective in the right hands but too reliant on cavalry charges and their armour save. *Should get a new armybook in 2013.


Lower-middle Tier
Not considered particularly powerful, but have certain strengths to balance out some of their weaknesses. Can still be very dangerous in the right hands.

Empire (updated April 2012) - Excellent variety of different units and army styles. New demigryph knights are very popular.

Orcs and Goblins (updated March 2011) - One of the most fun armies to play, with lots of characterful and humorous units. A really balanced armybook, that has no really bad choices and lots of potential for variety and fun themes. They are just very unpredictable and not especially powerful overall compared to the top tier armies.

Vampire Counts (updated January 2012) - Suffer from a lack of shooting and the army can crumble if the vampire lord dies. Core units are a bit weak. They can still be a tough army to beat with skeletons units that come back to life and nasty flying monsters.

Tomb Kings (updated May 2011) - Powerful magic, some nice unit combos, cheap skeletons. Some powerful choices for experienced players. No auto-win button but no serious flaws. Effective tools for dealing with various challenges and solid, if not spectacular, all round.


Upper-middle Tier
Above average strength, with some deadly combos and units available, but just short of being considered 'top tier'.

Dwarfs - Potential to shut down opponents magic phase, tear them up with artillery, then grind them down in combat. Very slow moving but tough to kill. Great warmachines (apart from the flame cannon).

High Elves - Versatile and powerful magic, army-wide Always Strike First rule, strong elite infantry, awesome special character in Teclis. Can be a little fragile at times and core units are a bit overpriced, but generally a strong choice and fun to play. You get a good starter army in the 'Island of Blood' boxed set.

Ogre Kingdoms (updated September 2011) - Strong characters, good warmachines, good at close combat and fairly fast. Mournfangs and Ironblasters are considered undercosted. The main weakness is in having a fairly small number of expensive units in your army; if one gets wiped out by a big spell or some bad luck, you will be in trouble. They are not very heavily armoured and don't have particularly high leadership. Ogre Kingdoms have a very nice range of models and are quite popular in tournaments.

Warriors of Chaos - Possibly the strongest army in close combat and quite easy to play. The main risk is getting outmaneuvered by your opponent and unable to get into combat. Two Hellcannons, two warshrines, big blocks of Marauders with great weapons and mark of Khorne, Warriors or Chosen with Halberds and Shields, magic items that screw around with the whole magic phase... there are some seriously nasty combos out there for Chaos generals to take advantage of. You can also theme your army based on different chaos gods, and have fun converting models to match. ** New armybook expected in late 2012.

Top Tier
Few weakness, lots of powerful or underpriced units, very competitive, may even put off opponents for being overpowered or 'cheesy'.

Skaven - Powerful warmachines? Check. Nasty magic? Check. Cheap massed infantry? Check. Huge scary monsters? Check. Awesome magic items? Check. Skaven have pretty much got it all in terms of their rulebook. They also have a cool range of models, various fun themes (ninja style, steampunk, plague-ridden, monstrous experiments...) and a 'Uniforms and Heraldry' book to give you more ideas. Two 'A-Bombs' supported by masses of slaves and a few warp lightning cannons can be very tough to beat. Can be difficult to learn for a beginner, as they have a lot of special rules. Can sometimes go spectacularly wrong when they accidentally blow themselves up.

Dark Elves - Downright vicious in 7th edition, and still deadly in the hands of a skilled player. Great magic items, and great synergies when using the Cauldron of Blood and lore of shadow. Hydras are seriously under-priced. However, dark elves are quite fragile and can be taken apart by a more experienced opponent if you don't use them right.

Lizardmen - Slann are the best casters in the game and also count as your BSB, Skinks and Chamelions are great skirmishers, Stegadons and Salamanders are really nasty. Lizardmen can reliably compete in every phase of the game and will always be a difficult army to defeat. Perhaps not the easiest army to use, but can be effective in a variety of builds.

Chaos Dwarfs - Most of their spells feel like the "oh my god I must stop this" type, they have solid, reliable basic troops (if a bit expensive) who can reliably compete in CC and the shooting phase. Let's be honest though the warmachines are unsurpassed, extremely powerful weapons at their disposal such as the K'daai who mince everything. Overall an army with very few weaknesses.

Daemons of Chaos - Utterly unstoppable in 7th edition, and still very strong in 8th. Only weakness is a lack of cheap lord choices. Rules for flamers and screamers were officially updated in August 2012, making them slightly less powerful.


I obtained this from this link: http://www.squidoo.com/which-is-the-best-warhammer-fantasy-army-in-8th-edition-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/05 00:08:04


 
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

I hate these things in fantasy since it is a far more balanced game than 40k but.. everything looks about right other than the VCs, they are upper middle not lower.

I don't really know about DE, DoC or Lizardmen either. Admittedly I don't have a lot of experience with DoC but from my understanding they are above average, but the 'top tier' attitude is a hold over from 7th.
Lizaedmen can do brilliant things with dual slann but as it says, they can compete strongly in every phase. I'm a little confused why they get to be in the top and HE can't though.


Having said all that the competitive scene is not about showing up with the latest nasty trick, you'll find most everyone brings armies that are designed to counter anything that comes at them which makes for far fewer "Well, I've drawn an army I can't fight, what's the point playing?" scenarios.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, since there is a 'why is there no tier list in WHFB' thread going on I'll just grab something said there.
Every army CAN win, but some require some serious experience and finesse to win consistently once you remove the variables of dice.

The idea of a tier system seems to imply that anything at the top will always beat something at the bottom.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 02:31:10


 Fafnir wrote:
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Made in au
Norn Queen






The fact that Tomb Kings is above Vampire Counts shows whoever made that list doesn't know much about either army.
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Just because vampire counts raise dead quicker and have stronger heroes I don't believe they are the equal of tomb kings, much cooler but I think weaker...
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






BaconUprising wrote:
Just because vampire counts raise dead quicker and have stronger heroes I don't believe they are the equal of tomb kings, much cooler but I think weaker...


You're right, they're not the equal of Tomb Kings, and I never said they were.

Tomb Kings do belong in the bottom teir. Vampires Don't - as already said, they're pretty solidly middle. In regards to 8th edition only books, they're just behind Ogres. While the teirs in 8th edition are a lot closer, there are obvious stronger and weaker books. Vampires are one of the stronger 8th edition books. Tomb Kings are one of the weaker 8th edition books.

If you think they're weaker than Tomb Kings... you really need to read both books again.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/01 03:13:18


 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine





Melbourne, Australia

Skaven as a top teir ?

i've only played a few games agaisnt them, vs a experienced player of the ratmen... but i've beaten them every time with a pretty standard VC list.

i agree about the VC and TK's

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Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

Skaven do deserve top tier but the fact that it can be disputed says a lot about how well balanced the game is.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in no
Terrifying Doombull





Hefnaheim

BaconUprising wrote:
Just because vampire counts raise dead quicker and have stronger heroes I don't believe they are the equal of tomb kings, much cooler but I think weaker...


Reread your book, think about what you just posted then come back with a more appropiate list. Your statement shows you have very litle knowledge about either army
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't know what it is with people and DoC. Screamers became more powerful in the update, not less. Flamers became vastly less powerful. Saying their only weakness is no cheap Lords is also untrue. Their only benefits are bloodletters, TZ Heralds, universal ward and magic attacks. Those are about the only things that no other army has as easy access to.

   
Made in de
Skillful Swordsman





The search for the bestest army is an eternal one, and will likely still be asked in 22nd edition, should the game still be around. Same with tiers. There must be as many tiers as there are players, or perhaps n-1, since the OP agrees with someone.

Skaven are indeed very strong but kill the General or BSB or push units out of the bubbles and everything bar Aboms and Plague Monks starts to go down fast. Vampires always surprise me with the number of units they can bring to the table, and strong units at that. Dwarfs and Empire, well, just substitute one for the other in the above descriptions. The latter can shoot down stuff with WM and grind the remainder down, too, and it sports much better offensive power and mobility on top. WoC get a new book; I've massacred HE and DE with them. The new book seems quite appropriate to 8th edition.


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Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

I love vampire counts they are my favourite army but from experience weaker than TK



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw I own both books. I'm not saying that I'm defiantly right you probably are but in my opinion they are better

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 18:43:14


 
   
Made in no
Terrifying Doombull





Hefnaheim

Then you have either played less then well, or faced realy unskilled players fielding them.
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Yeah, Tomb Kings have some notable issues that VCs don't. VCs are definitly stronger than TKs, all other things being equal.

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Made in no
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Norway (Oslo)

The races inn fantazy are rather balanced compared to 40k.
Comes pretty much up to the player if you ask me.
But... about to try out new WOC and see how they work this year

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3400 points 19/6/0 (W/L/D) 8' armybook
Wood Elves 2600 points, 6/4/0 (W/L/D)

 
   
Made in us
Inspiring Icon Bearer






I would disagree. I think TK and VC are about the same tier, but TK are much harder to play. Easier to dominate the magic phase for sure, they win shooting. And Warsphinx.

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Made in au
Norn Queen






 Acardia wrote:
I would disagree. I think TK and VC are about the same tier, but TK are much harder to play. Easier to dominate the magic phase for sure, they win shooting. And Warsphinx.




Teirs are defined by power level, which in simple terms, means how easy they are to win with. If an army requires more effort to win with, then it's not on the same teir.
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Well yeah, in 40k there are sme armies which you could potentially win with just by facing a lesser race. Fantasy it's not that big a thing but if your a sweaty tournament list builder then it could give you a slight edge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think dark elves are probably the best though closely followed by daemons and high elves. My personal best army is high elves but I have seen on many occasions that DE seem to be superior...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 22:08:22


 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






BaconUprising wrote:
Well yeah, in 40k there are sme armies which you could potentially win with just by facing a lesser race. Fantasy it's not that big a thing but if your a sweaty tournament list builder then it could give you a slight edge.


So if you're aware that Fantasy's 'teirs' are a lot closer than 40k, to the point where they're not really there at all, why are you making a thread asking for the 'best' army? That requires significant power level differences.

I think what you might be trying to ask is 'favorite' army.
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight





Las Vegas

 -Loki- wrote:
 Acardia wrote:
I would disagree. I think TK and VC are about the same tier, but TK are much harder to play. Easier to dominate the magic phase for sure, they win shooting. And Warsphinx.




Teirs are defined by power level, which in simple terms, means how easy they are to win with. If an army requires more effort to win with, then it's not on the same teir.


I'd disagree slightly with this, unless I'm misunderstanding. It's less about effort to win with and more about ability to win. If two people of insanely high but equal skill play two different armies against each other, all else being equal, the one that wins more often is 'higher tier'.

That being said, I'm not reading much into any tier claims for WHFB. I'm just more familiar with where tier lists are actually used.

   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

No I'm not asking favourite army I'm saying that I want to know what people think is the best army and am then commenting on how tiers aren't that much of a big deal...
   
Made in no
Terrifying Doombull





Hefnaheim

BaconUprising wrote:
No I'm not asking favourite army I'm saying that I want to know what people think is the best army and am then commenting on how tiers aren't that much of a big deal...


When will it sink into your mind that WHFB are much, much more balanced than 40k in terms of armies, and the balance between them. I can guarantee you that bringing a WoC army is by no means a guaranteed win, a experienced player will divert your charges and lead you on a wild goose chase or set you up for a nasty case of multi charge. Nor is picking DE a instant win, all the different armies in WHFB have weaknesses you can be sure a player with some sense of tactics will use against you. Also movement and positioning is insanely more important to armies than in 40k.
But there are of chourse armies that is easier to play than others, Empire and Ogres being two examples to this in opposition to Beastmen or Bretonnia, who needs much, much more skill to win with. And if I had to decide on a army that point for point has more effective units I have to say Warriors of Chaos and Ogres.
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

 Trondheim wrote:
BaconUprising wrote:
No I'm not asking favourite army I'm saying that I want to know what people think is the best army and am then commenting on how tiers aren't that much of a big deal...


When will it sink into your mind that WHFB are much, much more balanced than 40k in terms of armies, and the balance between them. I can guarantee you that bringing a WoC army is by no means a guaranteed win, a experienced player will divert your charges and lead you on a wild goose chase or set you up for a nasty case of multi charge. Nor is picking DE a instant win, all the different armies in WHFB have weaknesses you can be sure a player with some sense of tactics will use against you. Also movement and positioning is insanely more important to armies than in 40k.
But there are of chourse armies that is easier to play than others, Empire and Ogres being two examples to this in opposition to Beastmen or Bretonnia, who needs much, much more skill to win with. And if I had to decide on a army that point for point has more effective units I have to say Warriors of Chaos and Ogres.

That's pretty much exactly what I just said/meant.
   
Made in gb
Snord






I would agree with most of that.

VC and TK would change places though...

And I find that skaven get less powerful the bigger a game you play. Not less powerful bad, but balanced.

Play them at 750-1000 points, and fight 2 lightning cannons and a couple of warpfire thrower. And a grey seer too if 1000. Then pack up your army and go home crying. I was going to get ogre kingdoms, but with my group all starting from scratch again, and the skaven player among us taking 2 cannons, my few, multi-wound models would be wiped in turn 1... :(


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Made in gb
Charging Wild Rider





The one I would disagree with the most from that just is Berets, they're not even close to a bottom tier army. They're at worst a top 8 book, I'd be inclined to say top 6.

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Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Yeah that was one thing I disagreed with as well, but it makes a good point they are one of the weaker armies. They just don't have the staying power they require that initial blow to do anything.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




UK, Derbyshire.

I only have experience up to 7th ed games, i have most "evil" armies but like the oppotunity to field converted/non standard models best so have always liked Demons.
Ive read in many of these types of lists that they are unbeatable but i dont see it - most of the reasons people put forward for this seem to be misunderstandings of the list. Not in this post but in many ive read, people seem to think that the effects of heralds are inherant abilities of the whole list-all demons dont get 4+ inv save plus regeneration for example but many people online seem to think they do.
I built a mid sized lizard force that ive only played once, against a regular opponent (VC) it was low magic and crushed the vc more than any game id had in years.
Some armies are hopeless against certain others top of the list would be Goblins vs undead (my vc opponent was always trying to get me to run low ld armies against his fear causing force) very low chance of them not all fleeing off the table.
If you match specialised armies (in the same field- say close combat) against each other you may get more even match ups eg all tree wood elf against no slann lizards

   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

I added in chaos dwarfs as a top tier army as after recently reading the book I think they look one of the best...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 -Loki- wrote:
The fact that Tomb Kings is above Vampire Counts shows whoever made that list doesn't know much about either army.
by the way this tier list doesn't actually show TK's being above VC they are in the same tier, the order is irrelevant.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/05 00:13:00


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 -Loki- wrote:
Teirs are defined by power level, which in simple terms, means how easy they are to win with. If an army requires more effort to win with, then it's not on the same teir.

A moped is really easy to ride. But you're not going to win any races against a superbike, which is very difficult to master. A piper cub airplane is very easy to fly but it's not going to win in a dogfight against a F-22 which is extremely difficult to fly.

Tiers can be defined numerous ways. But you're saying what is the base power of an army given X skill. That's more ease-of-use, not tier.

   
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Sneaky Lictor




Sacramento, CA

I'd definitely make a few changes to that list from the other site. ...except the tier descriptions. They are quite accurate. yes, even the bottom-tier armies can win tourneys. No joke. (Or at least place Top 3)

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