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This is my first attempt at a Black Templar list.

I'm not going for the uber competitive "2 CML termie squad, typhoon speeder", I want to hit peoples' faces in with angry marines.
I'm not opposed to adding in missile launchers and whatnot, but I want to keep my army assault oriented. Anyway, here goes:

HQ:

Emp. Champ. - AAC 140
MoS - Artificer Armor, Lightning Claw, Powerfist, Jump Pack, Termie Honors - 215
Reclusiarch - Artificer Armor, Lightning Claw, Jump Pack, Termie Honors - 175

TR:

Crusader Squad - 5 initiates, plasma gun, Multimelta, Drop Pod - 126
Crusader Squad - 5 initiates, plasma gun, Multimelta, Drop Pod - 126
Crusader Squad - 5 initiates, plasma gun, Multimelta, Drop Pod - 126

Crusader Squad - 10 initiates, power maul, flamer, BP/CCWs, 3 neophytes (BP/CCW) - 206
Transport - LRC - 265

FA:

Assault Squad - 10 Initiates, flamer, power maul
Assault Squad - 10 Initiates, flamer, power maul

So the EC goes in the LRC, and the two chaplains go with the Assault squads. Hopefully, with a landraider and 2 drop pods coming in turn one, my assault squads will have enough cover and distraction to make it to something they can charge. Each assault squad will put out 57 attacks on the charge, with re-rolls to hit.

So... will it work?

C&C please!

Thanks!

I think it could be a fun list.

Not crazy competitive (first thing that comes to mind is the lack of anti-air).

I would suggest power-fists in your squads instead of mauls since they can't get challenged.

Finally, never leave home without adamantine mantle on your MoS.

That's not a bad idea, I guess having him insta-gibbed would be pretty terrible...

I know it lacks AA power, but my only real armor is the Land Raider, and its only purpose is to deliver my EC unit to combat and distract things, so by turn two it should have gotten it's payload at least halfway to where it needs to be. So, if a flyer comes in turn two and pops it, it won't be a complete loss, and then I'm all infantry and can do my best to ignore flyers.


Anyway, I added the adamantine mantle, so to do that I dropped the 3 neophytes and the flamer from my LRC squad.

I still can't find the points to add in those powerfists though, it's an extra 30 points that I'm not sure where to get.

Any suggestions?

I would at least get some regular PWs in your squads for Anti-MEC action.

As a side-note I would turn one of the assault squads into a 5-man bike squad, 3 PWs, and stick your MoS on a bike for an uber death-star.

I would drop the LRC to be honest. With it being your one and only vehicle it likely wont last past the first or second turn.

Use those points to fill out your big crusader squad to 20 guys and you definitely want PFs in your units.

Consider a marshal over the 2nd chaplain... the LD10 is huge for righteous zeal. Also, get more models in those drop pod squads.

If paying for one claw on the chaplains.. you are better off spending the 15 points on a second claw and dropping honors to save pts.. they are jumping around with the assault squads who should have fists in the squads.

It would not be a bad idea to take a lazcannon on one of the 5 man squads, deploy them on a home objective and drop their pod empty (you still want 3 pods in order to drop 2 on turn 1)

@Ztryder - I hadn't thought of leaving a pod empty and dropping it later, that's a very good idea and I think I may try it! Also, I might drop the LRC and add more crusaders, the squad is really only meant to chaperon the EC and be a distraction anyway.
I would like a Marshal, but I really need the Litanies of hate from the Chaplains, and because of ATSKNF even if I fail a lead test the results won't be terrible.
Lastly, because the claw and the PF are both specialist weapons, If I take one claw and one fist the chaplains get an extra attack from two weapons, plus terminator honors extra attack, so the MoS is 5 attacks base, 8 on the charge (2 from AAC and 1 from HoW), and the other reclusiarch is 4 attacks base. I may give him another claw for the extra attack, but they only need one to reroll wounds now, so I found dual claws is a waste of points.
I agree though, more bodies would be better for me than a LRC.

@phoenix - I was thinking that a power maul would be better than a sword for me. With 57 rerollable attacks, I should take out most of a ten man MEQ squad even with their armor saves, which leaves one or two left for me to kill in their own turn so my assault squad doesn't get shot to death. If I add a PW it is likely the assault marines will wipe the whole squad on the charge and get shot to death.
Also, the power maul is better against terminators, and anything with a 4+ save or worse. That's my reasoning behind it.

Also, do you think a bike squad would be better? They do not get as many attacks, and are more expensive. I was thinking of maybe running shooty bikes (3 plasma + MM) at some point or another, but I don't think assault oriented bikes would work well for me.

find room for melta bombs with your assault guys would be my suggestion. 2 points per model I think and with the new rules you are pretty much ALWAYS landing a bomb on a 3+ to a vehicle.

lizardwolf19 wrote:
This is my first attempt at a Black Templar list.

I'm not going for the uber competitive "2 CML termie squad, typhoon speeder", I want to hit peoples' faces in with angry marines.

Yeah, everyone is in the same boat, and every time you push the boat out to sea it sinks. There is no such thing as a BT competitive list without the CML squad or the Typhoon speeder. Hell I'd say that BT aren't even capable of making competitive lists anymore, and if they are they can be done better by another Codex 99% of the time.

I'm not opposed to adding in missile launchers and whatnot, but I want to keep my army assault oriented.

Good luck with that pal. Each and every single one of our potential assault units is overpriced or outmatched by alternatives and other Codex's. The only thing thats even decent is our TH/SS, but they're practically identical to that of C:SM.

Anyway, here goes:

HQ:

Emp. Champ. - AAC 140

Read the small print on AAC: you need to charge when you are in charge range. This is severely going to hamper your drop pod squads when they are forced to charge a unit that suddenly comes within 12'' range.

MoS - Artificer Armor, Lightning Claw, Powerfist, Jump Pack, Termie Honors - 215
Reclusiarch - Artificer Armor, Lightning Claw, Jump Pack, Termie Honors - 175

A huge waste of points here, buffing units that are overpriced and mediocre with or without them, while losing 215/175 points worth of a model lies on a razor's edge of a 50:50 save if a battlecannon blinks at them.


TR:

Crusader Squad - 5 initiates, plasma gun, Multimelta, Drop Pod - 126
Crusader Squad - 5 initiates, plasma gun, Multimelta, Drop Pod - 126
Crusader Squad - 5 initiates, plasma gun, Multimelta, Drop Pod - 126

These guys are going to get killed easily when they appear, and at the same time they'll be scarcely a threat and lack the firepower to do anything. 3 bolters and a Plasmagun is going to do diddly squat the turn you arrive, and your opponent will return fire viciously to get rid of the MM, which even if it does fire is liable to fail. They're also unreliable as objective holders as they are so weak and rely on deepstrike accuracy, footslogging to the position they do scatter, and trying to stay still to fire the MM all at the same time.

Crusader Squad - 10 initiates, power maul, flamer, BP/CCWs, 3 neophytes (BP/CCW) - 206
Transport - LRC - 265

The unit is a mediocre CC squad that costs 6 points more than 5 TH/SS Termies while being nowhere as good. This is a quarter of your points, invested into a strong box with pea shooters and a hilariously bad CC unit.

FA:

Assault Squad - 10 Initiates, flamer, power maul
Assault Squad - 10 Initiates, flamer, power maul

They're 241 points a squad. That is, simply put, ridiculous for a squad that has no invulnerable, isn't any CC threat at all to anything short of poorly placed bog standard infantry, and is nowhere near as good as most 200+ CC squads. You can have 12 Terminators for the price of these guys, or a pair of Termie Squads with a single CML and Tank Hunters. Assault Marines in general are poor, BT Assault Marines are even worse as they cost 4 points more than those in other Codex's.

So the EC goes in the LRC, and the two chaplains go with the Assault squads. Hopefully, with a landraider and 2 drop pods coming in turn one, my assault squads will have enough cover and distraction to make it to something they can charge. Each assault squad will put out 57 attacks on the charge, with re-rolls to hit.

57 S4 attacks roughly translates to about 30 something hits, and 17 or so wounds on most squads, which is what, 3-5 dead MEQ? for a pair of Deathstar price units that is laughable.

So... will it work?

Your army is split up into 4 easy killable elements, all of which are scarcely threatening and rely on a specific circumstance or a lot of luck to function even remotely. So unfortunately not.

C&C please!

Thanks!

Now having just pulled out my codex, it only costs 5 more points to upgrade to the pair of LC on any 2+ wound model... definitely the way to go.

Omega makes great points in his post especially regarding the size of your squads, the huge points dump into HQ, and the reality that BT assault squads are quite possibly the worst unit in the codex. You are better off with sword brethren in a LRC. Yes sword brethren. In fact if you want a power armor death star type unit, make a command squad with an apothecary, you can get 4 specialists that can take weapons from the armory, its an expensive unit but certainly more effective than the assault squads.

Assault Squad - 10 Initiates, flamer, power maul

They're 241 points a squad. That is, simply put, ridiculous for a squad that has no invulnerable, isn't any CC threat at all to anything short of poorly placed bog standard infantry, and is nowhere near as good as most 200+ CC squads. You can have 12 Terminators for the price of these guys, or a pair of Termie Squads with a single CML and Tank Hunters. Assault Marines in general are poor, BT Assault Marines are even worse as they cost 4 points more than those in other Codex's.

For example: for 235 points out of the chaos codex, I can get a 10 man unit of raptors with the same load out (flamer/PW) difference is, they have the MoK (rage, not dependant on a 140 pt HQ model) and the icon of wrath giving them furious charge and the ability to re-roll charge range. For 250, i can make them slaaneshi, initative 5 with FNP.. going toe to toe against your BT assault squads? I win my points back easily with either of these raptor units, which i wouldnt even waste my FA slot on in a chaos army. You plan on running your 215 pt chaplain with them right? For 160 my initative 6 chaos lord with a murder sword who named the chaplain as its target just gibbed you before you could even swing while the raptor unit he's flying around with makes short work of that assault squad. If either of these units had to deal with TH/SS terminators it would be game over for the raptors.

If you want to build a successful BT army in this edition with this codex you absolutely need to take advantage of the dual special weapon terminator units and cheap typhoons. They are the only advantages you can create. To build a successful BT army, you have to use your points wisely, as they are at a premium in our codex.

Being pigeonholed into a 2 wound, 2 attack IC that runs 100+ points and got nerfed in 6th ed... all the while being forced to take another HQ (again, a change in 6th) is hard to overcome. The CML termies and typhoon take a bit of the sting off that.

The reason I retired my templar army until the next codex update is that when I built the army, rhino rush/drop pod tactics were viable and the army hit EVERYTHING on 3s in combat. My templars have been in the army case since the beginning of 5th edition. BT used to be the penultimate meq CC army, now they are a relic of 4th edition that desperately needs the dark angels treatment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wrote up a list that for the most part sticks with your theme. In my opinion this list has more of a potential to succeed.

EC
AACNMTO

Marshal
TH/SS, Artificer armor, Mantle, Teleport Homer

Terminators x5
2 CML, 2 Chainfist

Assault Terminators x5
TH/SS

Assault Terminators x5
TH/SS

Crusader Squad (8 Initiates)
CCWs, Frag Grenades, PF, Flamer
Drop Pod

Crusader Squad (10 Initiates)
Bolters, Multi Melta, Meltagun
Drop Pod

Crusader Squad (10 Initiates)
Bolters, Multi Melta, Meltagun
Drop Pod

Crusader Squad (6 Initiate, 4 Neophytes)
Lazcannon, Plasma gun

ADL w/ Quadgun

Total is 1849.

In general, the EC and Marshal would drop in with the 8 man unit on turn one, the marshal uses the homer to port in the assault terminators, then joins one of those units if you want. If not, run him with the 8 man unit and EC.
The lazcannon crusader squad and CML Terminators deploy behind the ADL near an objective if the scenario calls for objectives. Once the terminators are on the board and wreaking havoc, they will draw a lot of attention off the troop units because your opponent cant afford to ignore them, keep the crusader squads close to the terminators if possible. I used to run a few PLCs terminators in my assault units, but with the proliferation of plasma guns in 6th, the storm shields become that much more valuable, especially with the LCs being AP3 as well.

Note: This is by no means what I would call a competitive BT list, I am trying to improve upon what you posted as your desire to build a Smashmouth BT army.. this is certainly that. It's an army that get's in your opponents face quickly and if you manage to get your terminators into combat will perform much better than the point sink assaults squads. You could even make all 3 pod units CC units and basically run 2 tandems of crusader squad and terminator squad.

Definitely a lot to think about here. I did not think that the BT assault marines were as bad as you all are pointing out. I knew they're weren't competitive, but I didn't think that they were straight up terrible.

I appreciate all of your help, especially in trying to work with my list and keep it CC oriented (if that's even remotely possible in the meta it seems)

I will try and come up with a newer list later tonight that takes into account your suggestions that may be slightly more competitive.
Sidenote, I guess I will be dropping the assault marine deathstars, but what about smaller units of assault marines? Taking a naked 5 man squad could still work well as a nuisance to kill heavy support units and backfield troops, right?

Thanks for all the great feedback!

Naked 5 man assault squads are not the way to go. Depending on what you are assaulting with them they are just a waste of 110 points. Look at it this way, 2 naked 5 man assault squads are more points than a unit of terminators with TH/SS, what do you think would fare better throughout the course of the game?

5 TH/SS termies with 4 attacks on the charge are a threat, 5 man units of assault marines are not even a nuisance. They will get themselves killed assaulting cultists, plague/noise marines, gk strike squads, full strength tactical squads, and other popular backfield troop units.

I guess I can't see a way to use them at all then.

How does this list look?

HQ:

Marshall, Adamantine Mantle, TH/PF, Terminator Honors, Teleport Homer, Artificer Armor, Assault Grenades - 196

EC, AAC - 140

TR:

Crusader Squad (9)- BP/CCW, Flamer, PF, Drop Pod, Grenades - 204
Crusader Squad (9)- BP/CCW, Meltagun, Power Maul, Drop Pod - 194
Crusader Squad (10)- BP/CCW, Meltagun, PF, Drop Pod - 215

Crusader Squad (5) Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 101
Crusader Squad (5) Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 101

EL:

Sword Brethren Terminators (5) - 2 CML, Tank Hunters - 265
Sword Brethren Assault Terminators (5) - TH/SS, FC
Sword Brethren Assault Terminators (5) - TH/SS, FC

This comes out to 1846. I dropped the ADL because my meta usually has enough cover to hold the 5 termies and 10 marines well enough, and because I have no vehicles I'm just going to do my best to ignore flyers. With the leftover points, I beefed up the Marshal, added a squad, and gave the assault termies FC so they can ID bikes.

I know it won't win me any tournaments, but do you think it could win a few friendly games?

It's better, the marshal needs either a storm shield or halo though. I would go with the shield. He has 4 attacks after you give him honors, making it 6 on the charge. That is plenty. You'll never attack with the PF it's points wasted. Stick with the shield.

Oops, I meant SS/PF to save me 5 points, not TH/PF.