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On behalf of guard, gk, sw, bl, and eldar how the smeg do you stop flamers deep striking and taking out your best units on turn one?

Deploy in one of these anti-deepstrike formations with your best units at the center:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/10/spacecurves-tactics-class-deployment.html

GK have the best solution: Warp Quake. Stops demons from getting anywhere close. Anyone who can ally with them have that solution also. You can also bubble wrap as shown in the link above. Finally, FW Sabre platforms for guard are great interceptors. The 2x Hv stubber platform is cheap (30) and has 6 S4 AP6 TL shots in units of 3. That should drop at least 1 if not 2 in a unit of 3 intercepting. Because they are taken from the closest, you can often knock out some of the worst of the damage. Also Sabres are easy to make, esp with all the extra Hv stubbers guard get.

Ally with Coteaz and a shooty unit, deploy your army in the 12 inch bubble or warpquake with combat squadded grey knights and declare the table mishap country...

These are the steps to do well vs daemons.

Null Zone
I know your doing it, but keep it up. Null zone kills daemons like flamers. Even screamers are hurt by it -- though they will likely be using their cover save.


Stick in your boxes
Deploy in rhinos and stay in them. Don't come out on the turn the daemons deep strike. This will give you one round of protection. On that turn, shoot the snot out of them with null zone.


Combat Squad
Any time you can combat squad, do so. This is extremely helpful for when you want to avoid getting killed. This means that instead of killing 10 marines, your going to lose 5.


Deploy on Board Edges
Drop your rhinos on the board edge. This makes it much more likely for him to mishap off the board.


Sacrifice a Squad
Sometimes you will want to sacrifice a squad to get that assault off on the flamers. If there is only 1 guy left in a squad, rush him in and let him get burned to death. Then assault with your other guys. Its better, even with tactical marines, to be in assault with flamers than getting shot by them.


Be a Douche with the Mishap
Did he mishap and you get to place the model? You can place his FMC in the corner so its facing two board edges, making him either swoop off the board or go into glide mode. This makes him easy to shoot down on the following turn. You can drop a 5 man squad of plauge bearers in front of your marines for easy shooting. You can drop his flamers 9" away so he can't use his flame templates.


Leave land raiders at home
Land Raiders don't help vs daemons. Screamers will tear them up, and flamers will just break them in a turn. There is no easy way to make them work.


Mass bolter fire
Flamers/Screamers are very vulnerable to massed bolter fire. Bolter fire is more important than PGs, ACs, or any other neat tricks. Bolter fire with Null Zone is just brutal vs flamers changing thier saves from 1/3 to 1/9. Its not that hard to get 50+ bolter shots on a squad of flamers.


Use Combat Tactics
Any time screamers assault you, fall back with combat tactics. Its not guaranteed, but when its works, you can fall back out of the assault and shoot the screamers.


Sit in Cover
Don't be afraid to sit in cover. Screamers don't have gernades, so if he assaults you in cover your striking first. This can help whittle down the number of screamers in assault with you. This is even better if Null Zone has been dropped.


Consider IG Allies
Something as simple as an 'Officer of the Fleet' can really piss of a daemon player. Moving that reserve roll to 4+ really sucks when you missed your perferred wave. Go for the warlord trait that lowers reserves by 1 as well. That will change his reserve rolls to a 5+ -- a very bad place to be if your a daemon player.

Daemons are very powerful, point for point, but they don't spend the entire game on the board. There is a 'hidden' fee in their point cost, like with flyers, in the sense that they all must start off the board. By forcing them to stay longer in reserves, your increasing that 'hidden fee', in addition to forcing him to come on piecemeal.


Consider GK Allies
Strike squads casting warp quake is a kick in the ass for daemons. It stops the alpha strike dead cold in its tracks. As an added bonus, the strike squads have a lot of bolter fire.
Two strike squads carefully placed in your army will make it extremely hard for the daemon player to alpha strike you.

Beating deamons really comes down to deployment and your ability to wrap and survive the initial attack.
Board control is also important, ill explain in a second.

Theres 2 ways deamons mostly play and that depends on whether he has taken Fateweaver or not.

If he has Fateweaver the general tactic would be to get fateweaver down and build a little castle containing the flamers and screamers in fatweavers bubble so they get a reroll. Then he will move in for the kill.

If there is no Fateweaver the list will likely be maxed out with flamers/screamers and this is more straight in your face tactic.

So this slight difference in list will mean a choice between going second or first.
No Fateweaver means going first to buy you time to setup that bubble and move as close to midtable as you can get.
Create that bubble wrap to get ready for the landing in your face screamers and flamers.
Don't make it too tight though and space out a bit, Make sure you are aware of how big that flamer template is.

Board edges are not useful because that means you are pretty much stuck in one corner of the board for the entire game which gives him complete board control.

If he has Fateweaver you can go second, obviously this should be your choice if you are granted the option.
It takes him longer to setup his reroll bubble so you have more time to react and you don't miss out on a round of shooting.

Bubble wrap with survivable troops or throw away less important models is vital. Also is not castling up in the corner of the board

For example, wraiths would be a perfect bubble wrap, make sure they are spaced out though, they are perfect due to their 3++. Otherwise things like cultists and cheap throw away units will help you not lose your important units on his first attack.

Knowing if the Daemon player is going to be landing right next to you or building a Fateweaver bubble will help you decide on how best to deploy and whether going first or second matters.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Board edges are not useful because that means you are pretty much stuck in one corner of the board for the entire game which gives him complete board control.

Doesn't that depend on what you have?

If you park a rhino at one side of the board, and no targets deep strike near it, you can move that rhino 18" a turn to get the contents where you need em to be.
On the following turn you can move the rhino another 6", then have the units disembark 6" and shoot.
That's a total of 30" in two turns and only losing one turn of shooting!

I agree, if someone has a squad of foot slogging ogres in the corner, their useless -- but if you bought transports they can be ... well ... transported.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Also is not castling up in the corner of the board

L0rdF1end is absolutely correct on this.

When you play daemons never...ever castle up in a corner. Whenever I see my opponent hiding behind an aegis line and I'm playing daemons, I just smile because I know I already won the game.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Board edges are not useful because that means you are pretty much stuck in one corner of the board for the entire game which gives him complete board control.

Doesn't that depend on what you have?

If you park a rhino at one side of the board, and no targets deep strike near it, you can move that rhino 18" a turn to get the contents where you need em to be.
On the following turn you can move the rhino another 6", then have the units disembark 6" and shoot.
That's a total of 30" in two turns and only losing one turn of shooting!

I agree, if someone has a squad of foot slogging ogres in the corner, their useless -- but if you bought transports they can be ... well ... transported.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Also is not castling up in the corner of the board

L0rdF1end is absolutely correct on this.

When you play daemons never...ever castle up in a corner. Whenever I see my opponent hiding behind an aegis line and I'm playing daemons, I just smile because I know I already won the game.

Sure, my advice was pretty basic and to be fair its not my advice, this tactic was used by a very good player that faced daemons multiple times in one tournament to win it.
I've castled in the corner/board edge before and died because of it. I've also spread out and died because of it

Having everything together moved to the board centre in most cases is the best way to go because he will be coming down and flaming you, theres nothing you can do to stop that.
What you can do is minimise losses by wrapping and spreading out and having your throw away units wrapping the units you do not wish to lose on first strike.

Then, when it's your turn you get to shoot those sreamers to death (as much as possible) and charge his flamers.

Its by no means an easy fight but this way you give yourself a fighting chance.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
If he has Fateweaver you can go second, obviously this should be your choice if you are granted the option.
It takes him longer to setup his reroll bubble so you have more time to react and you don't miss out on a round of shooting.

This is not always the case. Like you say its all about board control and it could be better to start first and "control" the board.

I played against a nasty daemon list with my ork army:

Bloodthirster
Fateweaver

5flamers
5flamers
5flamers

8 screamers
8 screamers
8 screamers

5 horrors
5 horrors

5 plaguebearers
5 plaguebearers

about 1750P

First turn I flat out 3 battlewagons (with KFF) towards the middle and keeping al my loota's in reserve. Then the Daemon player sets up his bubble sum where with his preferred wave of fateweaver, bloodthirster and mostly screamers. Flamers will not be in the first wave because only 4 can use their flamer once the deepstrike near a battlewagon (nr 5 cannot use a flamertemplate without hitting a unit member) and only cause sum glancing hits. Second turn my loota's and dakkajets walk/fly unto the table and my battlewagons either unload a lot of shootaboyz, or fall back with those battlewagons outside of charge range (flat out 18 inch). My loota's shoot first (snapshot) and when fateweaver hits the ground and doesn't fly anymore those dakkajets finish him off. Then 3x20 shootaboyz unleash their guns towards the screamers and assault the remaining screamer units. When the are locked in close combat the cannot be flamed by those flamers next turn.

This is a great example of cutting off the daemons army before the can charge and build up momentum by using maximum firepower turn 2 with units from reserves. For this to work you have to have first turn. Most daemon players will gladly give you first turn...

Thanks for sharing shogun and this shows that tactic and ability to deal with Daemons largley depends on your list. If you havent catered for it...well you are likely to lose.

Orks are probably one of the hardest matchups for deamons because the army is fast, it can provide invuln saves and it can dish out a lot of shots which is exactly what you need to chew through screamers and flamers or increase you chance to putdown 3++ reroll fateweaver.

I also played a 'nid player who had a ton of inflitrating models. He rushed them all forward on turn on and spread out to max coverage. I was forced to deep strike my entire army in one small quarter of the board, which really hurt my ability to perform.

A new option would be ally dark angels with power field.
Giving out a bubble of 4+ invul helps a lot.

-Matt

Warp Quake only works if you're going first, right? Or can you cast it in your opponent's movement phase? Coteaz works either way though.

In order to use null zone you still have to survive the first flamer shot.

can I add "with Necrons" to this title, and get an answer myself please?

I need to repeat what has been said here, spread your forces out with the expendable ones on the outside. You will loose troops no matter what you just have to be able to respond to threats and remove them as they arrive.

The link showing deployment tactics is a good starter.

Personally if I know I am facing Deamons I make sure to pack Priests (FNP), a Stormraven (takes out fliers and MCs like cake), TH/SS termies, Sternguard (hellfire HOOOO) and librarians (either for reroll for their saves or reroll to hit).

Shame the Daemon player as the douche they are and wait for the six months it'll take for them to be updated. Hopefully making both Screamers and Flamer 40+ points, as they should be.

"can I add "with Necrons" to this title, and get an answer myself please"?

Wraith spam my friend

"Shame the Daemon player as the douche they are and wait for the six months it'll take for them to be updated. Hopefully making both Screamers and Flamer 40+ points, as they should be".

lol,
Theres still things that can go wrong for daemons like mishaps and wrong waves. Then daemons have to contend with Warp Quake and Nullzone.
They do well mainly because they are powerful but secondly because people aren't preparing for them when they should be.

Bloodthirster
Fateweaver

5flamers
5flamers
5flamers

8 screamers
8 screamers
8 screamers

5 horrors
5 horrors

5 plaguebearers
5 plaguebearers

about 1750P

Nurgle and Tzeentch Daemons in the same list? Tisk, tisk. If this was in a tournament, I hope you marked him army comp score down for that little lfuff shredding stunt.

TR

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Shame the Daemon player as the douche they are and wait for the six months it'll take for them to be updated. Hopefully making both Screamers and Flamer 40+ points, as they should be.

I love how players who endured years of having a sub-par, criminally neglected codex ('Crons, Daemons) become hated the instant they get some decent (and arguably broken, I will admit) units. Meanwhile everyone and their dog runs a GK or valk/detta spam army. Because marines and IG are the only players allowed to have competitive and/or overpowered units.

btw +40 points sounds about right for vendettas...

 Dutch Wife wrote:


I love how players who endured years of having a sub-par, criminally neglected codex ('Crons, Daemons)...

I played mech Guard with the old gakky codex before mech Guard was cool, don't even own a vendetta, Still play Eldar with mostly Guardians, I'd rather quit the game than start dancing to GW's "hey this is broken now...BUY ITTT!!!" song.

It's not that they get an upgrade on two newly released models. It's that every Daemon player then cranks all their troops to a minimum and runs to cram three max squads of each into their list.

It's almost sad to see though, since this "tactic" (a more loosely used term I cannot find) will be invalidated when they get a new book. Which will make some other unit (that has been selling poorly or gets a new model released) will be totally cheap as Hell and awesometastically powerful.

btw +40 points sounds about right for vendettas...

I totally agree.

 Dutch Wife wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Shame the Daemon player as the douche they are and wait for the six months it'll take for them to be updated. Hopefully making both Screamers and Flamer 40+ points, as they should be.

I love how players who endured years of having a sub-par, criminally neglected codex ('Crons, Daemons) become hated the instant they get some decent (and arguably broken, I will admit) units. Meanwhile everyone and their dog runs a GK or valk/detta spam army. Because marines and IG are the only players allowed to have competitive and/or overpowered units.

btw +40 points sounds about right for vendettas...

Exactly how I feel about it Dutch Wife. I play Dark Angels and Daemons, and since both have been recently updated (and Daemons supposedly getting a new dex soon) I have had a couple of people try to tell me I am a fotm/cheese player. Those people have been told to piss off.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Dutch Wife wrote:


I love how players who endured years of having a sub-par, criminally neglected codex ('Crons, Daemons)...

I played mech Guard with the old gakky codex before mech Guard was cool, don't even own a vendetta, Still play Eldar with mostly Guardians, I'd rather quit the game than start dancing to GW's "hey this is broken now...BUY ITTT!!!" song.

It's not that they get an upgrade on two newly released models. It's that every Daemon player then cranks all their troops to a minimum and runs to cram three max squads of each into their list.

It's almost sad to see though, since this "tactic" (a more loosely used term I cannot find) will be invalidated when they get a new book. Which will make some other unit (that has been selling poorly or gets a new model released) will be totally cheap as Hell and awesometastically powerful.

btw +40 points sounds about right for vendettas...

I totally agree.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to rag on you specifically. It just burns my canoli how stuff like this happens in the meta/community with every fething book. And btw you're spot on about GW's marketing games, what fools they must think we all are...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nolzur wrote:

 Dutch Wife wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Shame the Daemon player as the douche they are and wait for the six months it'll take for them to be updated. Hopefully making both Screamers and Flamer 40+ points, as they should be.

I love how players who endured years of having a sub-par, criminally neglected codex ('Crons, Daemons) become hated the instant they get some decent (and arguably broken, I will admit) units. Meanwhile everyone and their dog runs a GK or valk/detta spam army. Because marines and IG are the only players allowed to have competitive and/or overpowered units.

btw +40 points sounds about right for vendettas...

Exactly how I feel about it Dutch Wife. I play Dark Angels and Daemons, and since both have been recently updated (and Daemons supposedly getting a new dex soon) I have had a couple of people try to tell me I am a fotm/cheese player. Those people have been told to piss off.

Right on. Personally I like to be different (read: non-competitive) and thus use blight drones instead of helldrakes in my CSM, and own exactly 0 screamers of Tzeentch. I do, however like to run 2 x 5 Flamers as a counter to TH/SS termies, especially vs drop pod lists. What else does a Daemon player have to reliably counter terminators other than Flamers and Screamers?

They think we are fools because we pay them to think so.