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Played guard last night with the new DA's and had weaken resolve make two units run off the board, before the second unit run off I remember stubborn (aka grim resolve) and read the rules for it, to me it looks like stubborn will ignore weaken resolve? opinions?

If Weaken Resolve says your Leadership is "X" Stubborn does not apply. If it says to reduce Leadership by "X", Stubborn applies.

At work so I can't look up the exact wording of Weaken Resolve.

Not quite, at the front of the rule book it says modifers include changing the value to a set value, stubborn says you basically ignore any negative modifer which by the rule defination setting the leadership to X (where x is lower then the normal) it is a negative modifer.

I'll post up the full rules for both in ten mins.

That's not correct - set modifiers are by definition not negative modifiers.

Right. They're modifiers, but I don't believe they're negative modifiers. Modifiers come in three varieties- positive, negative, or set value.

Negative does not mean "bad for you" in this case - it has to mean a negative numerical value. Anything else is subjective.

I would think its a mixed bag. Ignore modifiers for morale tests but lower LD against attacks from a Callidus assassin.

A good one.

Page 2 of the brb, 'certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a models characteristics postivelty or negatively by adding to it, multiplying it or even setting its value.

I have missed out the examples and tried to write it exactly as is in my rule book, there are only two sort of modifers in the brb postive and negative, to change that it is a modifer (add subtract multiply or set it to something else. If it is set lowerit is a negative modifer as per the above rules from my reading, weaken resolve reduces the leadership of a target by each model in the PBS unit to a minumum of 2, so it subtracts from the leadership.

Stubborn, page 43 of the brb states

When a unit that contains more then one model with this speical rule takes morale or pinning tests , they ignore any negtive leadership modifers.

Absolutely false. There are negative, positive and set modifiers.
These references must be numerical and not subjective.

MY reference is exactly as it is in the rule book, "certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a models characteristics postivelty or negatively" then describes the ways to do it, adding to it, subtracting from it multiplying it or setting it to a set value. I read that as postive or negative modifiers.

Would you say stubborn ignores weaken resolve?

I'm reversing my position, on review of the text again.

It says modifiers can be negative or positive, and then goes on to list adding to it, multiplying it, and set modifiers as examples of how these negative or positive modifications can take place. It does appear to me that any modifier which results in a lower stat must be considered negative, and any which results in a higher stat must be considered positive.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I'm reversing my position, on review of the text again.

It says modifiers can be negative or positive, and then goes on to list adding to it, multiplying it, and set modifiers as examples of how these negative or positive modifications can take place. It does appear to me that any modifier which results in a lower stat must be considered negative, and any which results in a higher stat must be considered positive.

The problem with set modifiers are positive or negative is the following:

GK FAQ wrote:Q: Are units with either the Stubborn or Mob Rule! special rules
effected by the ‘They’re horrible’ result of the psychotroke grenade?
(p60)
A: Yes, such units will be reduced to Leadership 2. However a
unit with the Mob Rule! special rule that has 11 or more
models will still be Fearless.

If setting a model's Leadership to 2 is a negative modifier, then Stubborn would ignore setting Ld to 2 as per 'They're Horrible'.

The end all be all of the question is whether or not set a value would be a negative. If your leadership is 10 and you set it to a value of 2, is that a positive or negative effect? Setting a value is still a modifier. You just have to determine if it was positive or negative. In this case setting it lower than it was would be a negative and stubborn would overrule it.
Although as posted above, the Grey Knights codex shall make something that should be simple alot more complicated.

Oh, I'm not saying that Stubborn negates the LD being changed. It just means that the reduced LD is ignored when they make a Morale or Pinning test, per Stubborn. For any other application or purpose for which the LD needs to be checked, it's still the reduced value.

Which allows that Psykotroke ruling to still be correct, without conflicting with Stubborn.

UncleGlock wrote:
The end all be all of the question is whether or not set a value would be a negative. If your leadership is 10 and you set it to a value of 2, is that a positive or negative effect? Setting a value is still a modifier. You just have to determine if it was positive or negative. In this case setting it lower than it was would be a negative and stubborn would overrule it.

Depends on who you ask. If my Doom is within 6" of your (now) Leadership 2 unit, that is a very, very positive effect. For me. Not so much for you. Or that unit. Especially if they do not have cover or Invulnerable saves.

UncleGlock wrote:
The end all be all of the question is whether or not set a value would be a negative. If your leadership is 10 and you set it to a value of 2, is that a positive or negative effect? Setting a value is still a modifier. You just have to determine if it was positive or negative. In this case setting it lower than it was would be a negative and stubborn would overrule it.
Although as posted above, the Grey Knights codex shall make something that should be simple alot more complicated.

It is now lower then what it was, so its negative.


Hahaha, doom would love ld 2 units!, I do agree with Mannhiem, the leadership is reduced but for morale or pinning tests Stubborn over rides this.

Depends on who you ask. If my Doom is within 6" of your (now) Leadership 2 unit, that is a very, very positive effect. For me. Not so much for you. Or that unit. Especially if they do not have cover or Invulnerable saves.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Oh, I'm not saying that Stubborn negates the LD being changed. It just means that the reduced LD is ignored when they make a Morale or Pinning test, per Stubborn. For any other application or purpose for which the LD needs to be checked, it's still the reduced value.

Which allows that Psykotroke ruling to still be correct, without conflicting with Stubborn.

Such as the template attack from a callidus.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
I'm reversing my position, on review of the text again.

It says modifiers can be negative or positive, and then goes on to list adding to it, multiplying it, and set modifiers as examples of how these negative or positive modifications can take place. It does appear to me that any modifier which results in a lower stat must be considered negative, and any which results in a higher stat must be considered positive.

The problem with set modifiers are positive or negative is the following:

GK FAQ wrote:Q: Are units with either the Stubborn or Mob Rule! special rules
effected by the ‘They’re horrible’ result of the psychotroke grenade?
(p60)
A: Yes, such units will be reduced to Leadership 2. However a
unit with the Mob Rule! special rule that has 11 or more
models will still be Fearless.

If setting a model's Leadership to 2 is a negative modifier, then Stubborn would ignore setting Ld to 2 as per 'They're Horrible'.

I was just about to quote this.

as above GW has already FAQ's stubborn and set modifiers


yes SET modifiers are a thing, the BRB it goes on to talk about the types of modifiers ( multiplicative,+/-, and set, and they are applied in that order) PG 2 people, PG 2


yes setting your Ld to 2 is one of them "set" modifiers

yes you ignore the negative modifiers (from combat ect), but you dont ignore multiplicative, or set modifers

negative Ld modifers, + Ld modifiers, and set Ld modifiers exist

stubborn says you (pg 43) "ignore any negative ld modifiers"

you while yes, the sentiment that my Ld went down, so there must have been a negative modifier makes sense in the way that 2 is indeed lower then what it was,

but in 40k the fact that your Ld was set at 2 rather then cumulatively modified negatively to be 2 makes a difference.

I'll refer to this again

Page 2 of the brb, 'certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a models characteristics postivelty or negatively by adding to it, multiplying it or even setting its value.


So wargear speical rules etc can postivelty or negatively modify a models characteristics by setting it to a set value. Sounds like a postive or negative modifyer to me.

Regardless, Weaken resolve doesnt set it to something, it reduces it (reading the modifyer rule it must subtract from it as their is a minmum it can be reduced to)

MarkyMark wrote:
IRegardless, Weaken resolve doesnt set it to something, it reduces it (reading the modifyer rule it must subtract from it as their is a minmum it can be reduced to)

This I agree with (was at work when I initially answered so was unsure on the wording of Weaken Resolve). Weaken Resolve is ignored for purposes specified by Stubborn, however, for all other cases wher eyou refer to Leadership, they are Ld X-Y (where X is the normal value and Y is the number of Sanctioned Psykers).

MarkyMark wrote:
I'll refer to this again

Page 2 of the brb, 'certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a models characteristics postivelty or negatively by adding to it, multiplying it or even setting its value.


So wargear speical rules etc can postivelty or negatively modify a models characteristics by setting it to a set value. Sounds like a postive or negative modifyer to me.

Regardless, Weaken resolve doesnt set it to something, it reduces it (reading the modifyer rule it must subtract from it as their is a minmum it can be reduced to)

again, yes you can ignore negative modifiers for moral checks and pinning tests with the stubborn rule.

 Happyjew wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
IRegardless, Weaken resolve doesnt set it to something, it reduces it (reading the modifyer rule it must subtract from it as their is a minmum it can be reduced to)

This I agree with (was at work when I initially answered so was unsure on the wording of Weaken Resolve). Weaken Resolve is ignored for purposes specified by Stubborn, however, for all other cases wher eyou refer to Leadership, they are Ld X-Y (where X is the normal value and Y is the number of Sanctioned Psykers).

It works on fearless models too, hitting fearless psyker with Weaken Resolve, will keep those pesky psychic powers where they need to stay, in the models head.

They reamain fearless but any other check on leadership has to use the new value.

Not too sure about how the Mob Rule thing works. Yes the leadership goes down , but you can then substitute the number of orks in the unit for their normal leadership value. I thin that it would work similar to stubborn in that regard. I don't really know.

Idolator, per the FAQ, the Orks are reduced by Weaken Resolve. Mob Rule is not a set modifier per se. So it does not apply afterwards.

Effectively Orks are Leadership X(Y); where X is the Leadership listed in the statline, and Y is the number of Orks in the unit. With the difference you get to choose which Leadership value to use.

 Happyjew wrote:
Idolator, per the FAQ, the Orks are reduced by Weaken Resolve. Mob Rule is not a set modifier per se. So it does not apply afterwards.

Effectively Orks are Leadership X(Y); where X is the Leadership listed in the statline, and Y is the number of Orks in the unit. With the difference you get to choose which Leadership value to use.

Makes sense.

Sooooo... absolutly no one has actually looked up Weaken Resolve?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Sooooo... absolutly no one has actually looked up Weaken Resolve?

Weaken Resolve reduces your leadership to X - Y (Y being the number of psykers in the squad). Stubborn allows you to ignore negative leadership modifiers from Morale or Pinning Checks.

so;

Your leadership is 10. There are 8 Psykers in the unit. Your leadership is now a 2. You are required to take a morale check from losing combat by 1. Normally, your leadership would be 2 -1 (combat result). You are Stubborn. You ignore the negatives, and are Stubborn on Leadership 2.

 djdarknoise wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Sooooo... absolutly no one has actually looked up Weaken Resolve?

Weaken Resolve reduces your leadership to X - Y (Y being the number of psykers in the squad). Stubborn allows you to ignore negative leadership modifiers from Morale or Pinning Checks.

so;

Your leadership is 10. There are 8 Psykers in the unit. Your leadership is now a 2. You are required to take a morale check from losing combat by 1. Normally, your leadership would be 2 -1 (combat result). You are Stubborn. You ignore the negatives, and are Stubborn on Leadership 2.

Weaken Resolve is a negative modifier, so in your example, you'd be Ld 10.

 Happyjew wrote:
Weaken Resolve is a negative modifier, so in your example, you'd be Ld 10.

for morale and pinning test only.

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Weaken Resolve is a negative modifier, so in your example, you'd be Ld 10.

for morale and pinning test only.

And in the example I quoted, the poster was referring to a morale check due to lost combat.