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To dragon or not to dragon that is the question! But seriously is it worth giving a dreadlord a dragon mount in 2500 point games? From what I have seen defiantly yes as pendant of khaeleth and black dragon makes a relatively cheap deathstar. Let me know what you think

No, I have killed more dragons than I can be botherd to remember. Canons and such will have a field day shooting at you

Didn't think of that, which is stupid considering I've been playing chaos dwarfs recently but i think with the right army you could combat that


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Anyway my dragon twin attacks with an allied K'daai destroyer so they have to decide which to get mullered by and I would rather kill the potential 9 attack destroyer!

Dragons are a bad decision unfortunately. 8th Edition is simply not a good place for them to exist in.

- Cannons are death. Extremely accurate, pulp whatever they touch and hit both the Rider and Dragon. Your Dreadlord should be ok with his Pendant but Cannons rarely come alone. I wouldn't give it more than 2 turns, especially if there is any supporting fire to go with that. (Magic Missiles, Handguns etc.)

- What does the Dragon provide? It gives you an extra 6 attacks and a Thunderstomp, plus breath weapon. Certainly nice to have in a pinch but the total cost is going to be ~600pts. That is massive, and how is the Dragon going to earn its keep? I know the whole 'earn your points back' concept is redundant, but Dragons just fall flat.
You will hit a big block somewhere and wail on it for a few turns. It is pretty irrelevant because the opponent will be Stubborn and just take it. If its carrying Great Weapons it might even chip some wounds or kill it off while you grind through. Even if you do win, how many units are you going to need to slog through? Is the Dragon really providing more than a simple Pegasus and unit of 20+ elite infantry?

EDIT: That said, you do have a K'Daii. I think he will be pulling enough weight that you can afford to take a few 'fun' choices, and a big stompy Dragon is certainly fun. It won't really be worth the cost but ultimately its something to be enjoyed and if you aren't needing 100% power output from the entire army, you can afford a badass Lord choice.

It's situational. You play a cannon army, your in trouble, you don't he'll tear the enemy in half. Last time I used one was against TK. Used a Star Dragon, with a Prince with GW and 2+2+4++ He wiped out 1500pts of a 3000pt army.

If you know you have the possibility of facing an army with cannons, then leave him at home. If their not that big in your local meta, then you'll get something out of him.

I think I will continue to play with one. As said earlier the inclusion of the K'daai destroyer seems to even out the field a bit and while DE are a very competative force I primarily play for fun.

You give up LoS for an expanded inspiring presence. But the mount and rider are one unit. So any cannon shots or unit attack spells will kill them both.

I think of the prototypical dragon as being all 6 stats, 4+ scaly skin, breath weapon, flight, 300pts.

Chaos dragons have +1 save to that and an extra breath weapon but are slightly more expensive. It's a bit hard to justify unless you are going full monster mash. If you just got ONE monster and he's >300pt mount and 300ish pt rider, it's such an easy target. A dragon by himself wouldn't be so bad.

My Goblins laugh at dragons. 6 Spear Chukkaz, Doom Diver, Mangler Squigs, Stone Throwers etc. do that

As has already been established, a dragon is very much a rock-paper-scissors affair.

However, they're an absolute blast to use. In addition, because they're so rare, a lot of people have either forgotten how to play against dragons or don't bother to plan to face one.

So, whilst there are some pretty awful match-ups (Ogres, Empire, Dwarfs, O&G, Skaven spring to mind especially), and it does put you on the back foot in terms of magic (no level 4 usually), it'd certainly be worth a try.

The other advantage of the pendant dragon is that it can be hard to actually get VPs from the model. Even if the dragon gets cannoned away, the dreadlord can go trot into an infantry block.

Had the same experience against an Oldblood on Carnosaur.

Yeah and the benefits of a dragon include it's flying, I've found most opponents against me have ignored it in favour of cannonig the K'daii destroyer. It makes an effective tactic and usually leads to me getting the point back on him rather easily...


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Vampires on dragons are a big flop though. One zombie dragons are useless and two you can't use the VL to help your weak troops

I actually think Vampire on dragon is the best option currently (EDIT: In relations to best option for a lord on dragon). Only problem is, you HAVE to run him with 2 terrorgheists and Vargheists. Its a very specific list. You basically have your general and several flyers going around raping things, with zombies tarpiting what they can. (Which is difficult since they're so slow, and their general is off flying around.)

Essentially you have your dragon and terrorgheists flying around, out of charge sight, screaming to lower numbers. Then flank charge with the Vargheists to win combat and run them down. It works pretty effectively if your good at moving around and avoiding charges, and the enemy doesn't know which target is the main threat. I've even seen him work well on a Abyssal Terror.

And what I realize I have overlooked is that you're running a pendant Dark Elf lord in the same army as an allied K'Daii (!!!).

You have some charitable opponents! Or masochistic ones.

I am not really a particularly competative player and me and the people that I play with often play storm of magic that's why I have K'daai with dark elves sorry for the confusion...

I think again it depends on your army. Dark elves have multiple options to mitigate cannons. Some armies more and others less.
From what I have noticed this edition they aren't often worth their points but OMG when they do, carnage!

I think if you're in the kind of gaming group that plays a lot of Storm of Magic (which is great- and a lot of fun, I'll bet), the answer to your question- to Dragon or not to Dragon is going to be a pretty emphatic yes!

A dark elf dragon dreadlord is dependent on two things.

1) He must have the Crown of Command. I know you think you'll win every combat, but sooner or later you'll be sorry. One game after my cannon fluffed, I charged the dragonlord with knights, gave them ASF and ws10 i10 and pha's protection all in one phase. In a game where stuff like that can happen, the crown is a must.

2) You have to be running the work as far as cannon targets. Double hydra, pegasus BSB that makes cannon balls only s5, maybe another hero or two on pegs, dark riders, etc. they probably still shoot the dragon if they can, but the rest of the list can make them sorry.

My empire lost to this list once at 2200, then won on another occasion when the helblaster managed to actually kill both the dragon and the rider (thank you, master engineer. I think it's just viable, not great.

There seems to be a stock response that 'cannon mince large objects' which is surely true, but, is it not helpful to have the large object on the board soaking up all the fire?
I mean if the cannon spend their turn 1 and maybe turn 2 mincing the dragon, that just gave all your other units effectively cover against the cannon.
I know you end up loosing a 600 pt slice, but surely to have your infantry arrive int he centre of the field unmolested is a help?

I'm not particularly fond of the logic that you shouldn't take large targets because of cannons, consider the fact that only 4 armies have cannons (5 if you count chaos dwarfs although they and WoC share the cannon) and even saying you'll play those three dwarfs notwithstanding they aren't auto includes, meaning cannons aren't an issue playing Daemons, Brets, Beastmen, Wood Elves, High Elves, Orcs and Goblins, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings or Lizardmen and many builds from ogres, empire and warriors




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and skaven

Now, I am a massive fan of the dreadlord on dragon. The only reason I don't use mine is that someone stepped on it and it fell apart and I haven't been able to repair it. As previously mentioned, in a list where you have a large unit of cold one knights, cauldron, pegasus heroes and harpies it works. Impassable makes it even better, as you can hide the dragon until the harpies/dark riders mop up cannons and then the dragon pops out and has the time of his life.

Azzaphox wrote:
There seems to be a stock response that 'cannon mince large objects' which is surely true, but, is it not helpful to have the large object on the board soaking up all the fire?
I mean if the cannon spend their turn 1 and maybe turn 2 mincing the dragon, that just gave all your other units effectively cover against the cannon.
I know you end up loosing a 600 pt slice, but surely to have your infantry arrive int he centre of the field unmolested is a help?

I think the idea here is that cannons are better if you're using them against large, single monsters than if you use them against rank and file, which means bringing only a single large monster validates the taking of cannons and allows them to be used to their full potential. And, of course, your single large monster will certainly die. So the cannons were worth taking (for your opponent) while the monster wasn't, and the cannons are presumably still on the table.

Agreed.

Two cannons would have to take out six 10pt models/turn for 5 turns to equal your Lord on a Dragon. He's drawing fire, alright. Because the dragon is just as tough as the infantry, as far as the cannon is concerned, but costs a lot more per Wound.

Really, cannons just need to be re-worked. They should perform well against infantry and poorly against single targets. Some kind of horizontal deviation to prevent sniper-cannonades. 'Cause that ever happened in history. Ever. They're huge, cumbersome devices that take several men to load and aim; there's no way you'd be able to get a bead on a single moving target like you can in the game.
It's also a little weird that three guys can load and fire a cannon or catapult as fast as one guy can notch and loose an arrow, but that's a different story.

I saw that some previous editions (like 3rd edition) had cannons hit multiple files per shot- that seems like a good way for them to be more effective against infantry.

Probably needs to be toned down more than this, but I think a good first step would be to only hit either rider or mount. Makes no sense to always hit both.

I concur too, dragons are simply to easy to knock with the proliferation of multiple wound threats in 8th.

And dammit, I really want to use huge, impressive models. I hate cannons - ignore the fact that I play VC and don't have any.

It is the same problem for the Tomb King on Warsphinx - costs a ton, isn't worth it, will die almost automatically against cannon armies. Also he cannot fly.

Total shame though, because we can all agree that having your general sitting on top of the biggest monster to be found within 100 leagues of his fortress is pretty much the whole point of playing Warhammer.

I say bring the dragon. If you happen to face a foe who has a cannon, hope for a misfire or "1" on the to wound roll. Either the game will be over soon or it won't, if it is, play again.

I have a dwarven friend who always rolls a 1 when trying to wound or a 1-2 o the D6 wounds, I usually lose my big nastie by the end of the game, but if he fluffs his rolls turn one, I'm usually in combat the second turn.

Next time he plays me, he'll bring 2 cannons, but I won't bring a dragon. keeps everyone on their toes.

That's a good point, actually.

After taking in to consideration over/under shooting or Misfires! with the Artillery die, to Wound, and the result on the Multiple Wound, cannons start to look a lot less reliable. Still too reliable, but less so.
I've done the math on my Warp Lightning Cannon; it's got a 50-50 chance of hitting a unit (slightly better vs. single targets), but that's not considering its variable Strength.

A Black Dragon has 6 wounds IIRC. That means that unless your opponent gets turn 1, it will be in his face. That also means that he has to kill it or it will be in his face on turn 2. The Ironcurse Icon can give the dragon a small chance to dodge/punch a cannonball. Or, use impassable terrain.

Um.... What ogre army do you face? Mine takes 2 ironblasters at 1800 pts and higher.

I don't even need the cannons for dragon hunting. My bulls and SM have taken down big scary beasties with zero issue. Mournfangs also do a decent job.

The trick to dragons, or any big scary monster, is target saturation. If it goes solo, you'll face every long range str 5+ shot possible, and even a bunch of str 4. Ranged damage magic, war machines, etc will all shoot it down fast. Then it will get charged by great weapons, or other heavy unit, and make it go away. However, if you have 3-4 such targets and threats, the dragon becomes much more survivable,