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TaddleMunkey wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
S'okay, I forgot that his power was super special and not a shooting power.

Except if its not a shooting attack, you dont actually have any rules allowing you to resolve the hits or wounds.

I now have a friend that claims that because you cause the wounds in the shooting phase you can then allocate the wounds normally because you caused x wounds regardless on if it was a shooting attack or not. What say you?

The rules from page 12 on describe how to handle shooting attacks - we know that because of what's on page 12.
Find the resolution for non-shooting attacks.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
Well you would resolve the attacks based on what the Spirit Leech rule says. Take the leadership test and for every wound you are over you take a wound. Those wounds would then go to the wound pool no?

The unit takes X wounds.
Find guidance on how to populate the wound pool. Find guidance on how to allocate from the wound pool. Do so without referencing anything in the section starting on page 12 as that section deals solely with shooting attacks.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Page 12+ deal with shooting attacks. If it's not a shooting attack you cannot reference those sections.

Do you think thats how they would allow this attack to be done in a tournament? If not how would they word it to a player so that they can't use it?

I've seen it done as a shooting attack that doesn't require LoS (and therefore ignoring Out of Sight) or have range restrictions (and therefore ignores the stupid Out of Range change) and I've seen it done as a normal shooting attack being restricted by those two rules.

Check with the TO before you start.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
The logic they are using is Spirit Leech is done in the shooting phase so when you have wounds in the shooting phase the only place you could reference is the BRB under shooting phase for allocate wounds. No where on page 15 does it specify that you have to use shooting attacks to allocate wounds. I see both points here, I just want to know who is the most right and why,

The only way to reference the rules on page 15 is to begin on page 12 with a shooting attack.
Referencing page 15 is only allowed with a rule allowing it.
Cite the rule that allows a non shooting attack to reference page 15.

Oh - it doesn't exist? Oh. Well, that'd mean that pretending Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack and can be resolved RAW is incorrect.

TaddleMunkey wrote:
They are just going to ask me where it says they CAN'T reference page 15 when relating wounds to a shooting phase.

Where does it say you can't use a flamethrower and melt all their models?

I'm not frustrated, I'm showing you the failure in their line of thinking.

In a permissive rule set you must have rules allowing you to do things - meaning you can't skip from rule t rule in the book; you have to have a reason to go there. Normal shooting attacks have a path to page 15. Non-shooting attacks that cause wounds in the shooting phase do not, RAW.

barnowl wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TaddleMunkey wrote:
then have to go to the BRB in reference to what you would do in a shooting phase for the wounds. The small codex always trumps the BRB in relation to rules doesn't it?

Page 12+ deal with shooting attacks. If it's not a shooting attack you cannot reference those sections.

Not entirely true. You could reference this section for any special rule that said to use the shooting allocation rules even if it was not a shooting attack. Which is, what I think should be FAQed for Spirit Leech, however GW has not don that yet so we get arguments of how how to shoe horn a 5e special rule in to 6e.

Yes, obviously exceptions are special. Reading the thread for context is key.

Saythings wrote:
I've considered using the Landing Pad for several of my lists and I am also a Tyranid player. I've looked over the rules of the landing pad several times and they are very clear. If you want to interpret the rules for yourselves you can. Be my guest. But they are written how they are written. You either follow the rules as I'll describe them or you can play "house rules". That's up to you.

In the T:C, it reads (pg 58):

Spirit Leech: At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armor saved allowed.

This happens during the Shooting Phase but no where does it state it as a Shooting Attack. This is a special rule. Hundreds of models in this game have them, you follow them as written.

As written, Spirit Leech has no method of allocating wounds. If you disagree, cite the rules please.

Furthermore, it is also argued that the Landing Pad is area terrain. Most area terrain provides cover. However, this is not the case for the Landing Pad.

Most area terrain provides cover (meaning - not all) and therefore something that does not provide cover is not area terrain?

Saythings wrote:
Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. A special rule with special properties. Until Spirit Leech itself is FAQ, you must treat it as written. For each point the unit fails its Leadership Check by, it takes a wound.

Yes, the unit takes a wound. Great. No one has argued that.

Now - it's not a shooting attack. How do you allocate the wound?

Saythings wrote:
There is no written rules for Wound Allocation of Spirit Leech; I'd imagine it'd be up to you and your opponent, or a TO if you're in a tournament. Everything in 6th edition points to models closest. Every rule for which model you should take off (short of a barrage weapon) states you take off models closest. This is consistent with shooting, psychic powers, and CC. You could even argue the back of the unit if you wanted to, but I'd imagine your opponent would choose models closest to get out of the 6" for the following shooting phase.

Right - nothing written. So either you treat it as a Shooting/CC attack (Shooting making more sense) or you make up rules. One option makes sense, the other is making stuff up.

The whole argument of this thread was whether or not they get the invulnerable save. So we agreed, they don't get invulnerable and they don't get cover saves on open terrain because Spirit Leech is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. This special rule, without the aid of a FAQ, wounds the enemy unit. It's up to the people playing or the TO for where you're taking the wounds. However, in every aspect of 6th, you'd take off models closest.

There's actually precedent for a non-shooting attack to cause Wounds that are allocated.
Soul Blaze.
And using that precedent, you're wrong about what models are removed.

This thread shifted from Invulnerable Saves to Cover Saves to Wound Allocation. The first two is answered 100% by RAW. The Landing Pad will not protect units from Spirit Leech, either from Invulnerable Saves OR Cover Saves. It is not a shooting attack. It is a special rule. The third part, Wound Allocation, is the tricky part. But if you agree with 1 and 2, it's up to the player's digression where you take the wounds from. You could randomize it between all models if you wanted to. But the wounds will happen regardless.

Your bolded point is untrue RAW.

Saythings wrote:
Alright. I'm going to assume whenever you play a Tyranid player, you're going to tell them Spirit Leech is useless. You'll also tell them in the transition between 5th and 6th edition the rules for the Doom became unclear. He will except your explanation and the Doom won't use Spirit Leech. Let me know how that goes!

I am a Tyranid player. Don't assume bias where there is none, and don't assume that RAW is HIWPI either. 2 fails so far.

Your way: There is no written rule on how Spirit Leech works in 6th. There is no 100% correct way to proceed. You interpret a lack of rules as a loop hole that renders a special rule worthless.

My way: I understand that 6th edition has effected a "5 edition" special rule. I read the BRB and C:T, I do not pick and choose what I read in each. I clearly state what rules are written. I explain how each rule breaks down until you can not break them down anymore. At this point in time, there is no wound allocation for Spirit Leech in 6th edition. However the case may be, all the rules I listed still apply. Furthermore, wound allocation is not clear on Spirit Leech (in 6th edition), but all the rules I listed are, in fact, 100% accurate.

So... Your way and my way aren't different at all. What's your point again?

Saythings wrote:
No bias. You can play Tyranids all you like, and you could also play them incorrectly. I forgot Tyranid players can't play other Tyranid players.

Damn, there's no orkmoticon rolling his eyes.

I'm playing by how the rules are written. Not by what rules aren't written.

So you're playing that Spirit Leech can't allocate wounds?
It's a permissive rule set. You only have permission to do what the rules say you can.
If you're playing by what rules are written you have no rules allowing you to allocate Spirit Leech's wounds.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

The only reason I disagree with that is because of Soul Blaze. They are different of course - Spirit Leech has an origin (obviously) and Soul Blaze doesn't, but there is precedent for a special rule to cause wounds and not be resolved as a shooting attack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or, as people have pointed out - just treat it as a shooting attack. So out of sight applies, out of range, and most importsantly it is consistent with 6th edition.

The only reason I disagree with that is because of Soul Blaze. They are different of course - Spirit Leech has an origin (obviously) and Soul Blaze doesn't, but there is precedent for a special rule to cause wounds and not be resolved as a shooting attack.

But only where the special rule tells you how to determine this. SL is more like a blast shooting attack then it is soul blaze or something similar.

Don't get me wrong - I understand where you're coming from. I just don't see it as an absolute-must-be truth after realizing how Soul Blaze works.

Saythings wrote:
Least we can agree that the Spirit Leech is unaffected by the Landing Pad! Thread sucessful!

It's amusing you think that.
If you treat it like a Shooting attack (nos' platform) there is no reason to deny the Invul save.

Saythings wrote:
There is reason to think shooting. You made that clear. You also made it clear that there is no wound allocation. So it simply didn't work in 6th. If you are willing to count it as a shooting attack, then should be just as willing to treat it as a unique would pool.

IE a non shooting attack? Sure - that's possible. But it requires creating more rules than just assuming it's a shooting attack.

You're reading into rules that don't exist. The BRB even tells you, don't forget to have fun. Read that rule and stop being TFG.

No, I'm not reading into anything. At all. You've agreed it doesn't work as written and have put forward one way of handling it (that requires making up rules).
Nos has another method - that requires making up no rules but means that the Skyshield invul works.
I have another method - that requires making up no rules.

I'm not saying your method is incorrect, I'm saying that there is no consensus like you wanted to pretend there was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nem wrote:
IMO, if it happens during the shooting phase whether a 'shooting' attack or not you have permission to allocate wounds as per the shooting phase> Wound allocation section. I've looked it over a few times and I really can't see why 'Wound allocation' only applies to 'shooting' attacks.

I may be missing something. The wording of wound allocation does not specify any type of attack specifically it gives permission to allocate wounds to, only those happening during the shooting phase.

Start at page 12. Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties is part of the Shooting process (step 5).

Nem wrote:
Hi Rig

Problem is, I see the permission to allocate wounds specifically mentioned for Mawloc's terror of the deep under this 'shooting process'.
This grants permission to allocate wounds via random allocation for special rules which do not follow the normal 1-4 process?
Mawlocs TOTD - these wounds are allocated during the Movement phase, this pretty much opens up the random allocation method in the Shooting Phase to pertain to more than a 'shooting attack'.

You're looking at it wrong - while the Mawloc's TFTD is mentioned as an example under Random Allocation by the rules there's no way for it to actually "get there".
To make the rules work, it makes sense for it be able to do Random Allocation - but by the RAW it just doesn't work.

Nem wrote:
Hi Rig, I get there via the special rule, I am given permission to do everything.

Mawlocs TOTD
Blast causes hits - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Cause wounds - Granted by special rule in codex
Next step
Wound allocation - Granted by Random allocation

Find permission to reference Random Allocation outside of a Shooting Attack - considering Allocating Wounds and Removing Casualties is step 5 of a Shooting Attack (page 12 for reference).

The only thing confusing here is my special rules do not follow steps 1 to 4, this is a direct conflict of the rules. Instead of following 1 to 4 I utilise a special rule, and when I come to wound allocation that is permissible by the random allocation section.

Steps 1-4 of the Shooting Attack process you mean?
So obviously you're making a Shooting Attack then, right? Oh - you're not? Um. Then how/why are you referencing Shooting Attack rules? Would you reference Death or Glory rules when you move a vehicle?

Earlier in the thread you asked for something on Pg15 which is not in relation to a shooting attack, well, random allocation deals with allocations from special rules.

There is a skeleton key in the safe. I do not have the combination to the safe nor any way to access the inside of it. Can I unlock the door over there that needs that skeleton key?

Yes, Random Allocation describes that one use is a special rule - but that's not the only use (equidistant models is another relatively common one). To reference a rule you need permission to reference a rule.
Find permission to reference Random Allocation please.

Nem wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, in the case of Vector Strike there is a clear source of the wounds being taken and GW said its random in that case.

Hi

This was errata'd to specifically mention using random allocation in its entry. Were people claiming you couldn't allocate wounds from vector strike before?

Yes, absolutely.

Rig;
As far as I see I have all the permissions I need RAW, Asking me to look for an allocation method somewhere other than the shooting phase is not needed, Permission is granted on that page, it specifically mentions a non shooting attack, and how to allocate wounds. By using special rules, I disrupt the normal turn sequence and allocate this way.

So the Death or Glory rules mention movement.
Any time I move my Land Raider I demand you choose Death or Glory with your HQ.
Wait - you want me to Tank Shock first? Balderdash! Movement is mentioned in DoG and therefore I can reference it any time I move! By moving I'm disrupting the normal turn sequence!

Nem wrote:
Rig; I'm applying rules in a sensible way. Think your exaggerating my point a bit.
The random allocation permissions are in the Shooting phase, Doom's ability is activated in the shooting phase, where else are they going to put it?

It's location is fine. Just put a line to the effect of "This ability uses Random Allocation to allocate and resolve the wounds caused." In the 6th edition errata on Spirit Leech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I like Adepticon's way of handling the odd stuff that crops up which needs to be sorted out 'on the fly'.

This may or may not be the way your group handles it, but it is HIWPI.

"The best way to resolve these issues is to ask yourself the following:
1. Is there any existing Warhammer 40,000 rule you can use as a precedent?
2. What is the most reasonable thing that would happen in this situation?
3. What are the two most likely outcomes and then roll a D6: 1-3 = Go with solution 1; 4-6 = Go with solution 2.
4. If all else fails, ask a judge, however, the judge's decision is final. "

Form: http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=2522

For #1 the most similar thing to the doom's ability is a Nova Psychic power, which is a shooting attack. It seems the easiest way to resolve it as RAW the ability does nothing.

I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

prankster wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So the Death or Glory rules mention movement.
Any time I move my Land Raider I demand you choose Death or Glory with your HQ.
Wait - you want me to Tank Shock first? Balderdash! Movement is mentioned in DoG and therefore I can reference it any time I move! By moving I'm disrupting the normal turn sequence!

That's not quite the same thing though, as DoG specifically says when it happens and there's restrictions to when you can activate that rule. Whilst you're more than welcome to attempt to reference it, the very section itself starts out by saying when you can activate it. So, if you're moving your land raider at the other side of the board, you can't activate it, where as if you're running over my HQ I'll more than happily let you activate it should the pre-requisite be met.

I'm still inclined to say that the closest thing that makes this work RAW is Nova without a test or DTW required to make it work.

And the shooting rules specifically say that there's an order to a shooting attack and allocating wounds is part of that order. You need permission to skip steps 1-4 and Spirit Leech isn't worded to skip those.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It doesn't require a Psyker test like a Nova, it doesn't allow a DtW like a Nova, it affects Psychic immune units/models unlike a Nova...

Perhaps, just maybe, it's a special rule that is similar to a Nova? Oh, right - that's exactly what it is. A special rule that causes wounds. I wonder if there are any other special rules that cause wounds...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'd say its closest to Soul Blaze - it's not explicitly any kind of shooting attack, rather its a special rule that causes wounds.

Really? It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova...

It doesn't require a Psyker test like a Nova, it doesn't allow a DtW like a Nova, it affects Psychic immune units/models unlike a Nova...

Perhaps, just maybe, it's a special rule that is similar to a Nova? Oh, right - that's exactly what it is. A special rule that causes wounds. I wonder if there are any other special rules that cause wounds...

Similar:
It has a range, like a Nova, it is used in the shooting phase, like a Nova, it hits units like a Nova.

Not similar:
It is not a psychic power

it has more in common with a nova than it does the soulblaze rule.

Yes, when you boil a number of differences down to one line it seems that way.
Here, I can do the same thing:

Similar:
It is a special rule.
It causes wounds.
Wounds must be allocated.

Not similar:
It does some things like a Nova.

See? It's more similar to Soul Blaze!

 Happyjew wrote:
You guys keep forgetting that a Leadership test is taken. Exactly like a Nova.

But taken by the wrong unit - see?!? Another difference!

 DeathReaper wrote:
It has more things in common with a nova, than with the Soulbalze rule.

And I disagree.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It has more things in common with a nova, than with the Soulbalze rule.

And I disagree.

Disagree all you want, that does not make it true.

A nova power effects all units within a set distance, just like Spirit Leech.

A nova power it is used in the shooting phase, just like Spirit Leech.

It has one thing in common with soulblaze that is is a special rule.

And you can pretend that "it's not a psychic power" is just one instance that its dissimilar instead of
1) requiring a Psychic Test - Novas (obviously) require one, Spirit Leech doesn't.
2) targeting all units within range - Novas target, Spirit Leech doesn't.
3) hitting all units within range (a Nova would cause a Grounding test. Spirit Leech doesn't)
4) Novas have a shooting profile. Spirit Leech does not.
5) Novas are Psyker powers. Spirit Leech is not.
6) Novas allow a DtW roll. Spirit Leech does not.
7) Novas cannot effect models/units that are immune to Psychic powers. Spirit Leech can.
Edit: 8) Novas require Warp Charge expenditure - completely forgot about this one.


That's 8 differences wrapped up in your one line. Please don't pretend that's just one difference.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Spirit leech targets all units within range. If it hits them then they are a target of the power. (So that is 2 and 3 taken care of)

Citation required. The codex does not say that.

your #1, #5,#6,#7 all fall under the fact that Nova's are Psychic powers, and SL is not...

That's... Kind of my point. You're wrapping them all up into one difference. That's disingenuous.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Spirit leech targets all units within range. If it hits them then they are a target of the power. (So that is 2 and 3 taken care of)

Citation required. The codex does not say that.

Spirit leech P. 58 Nid Dex. (The part that tells us that every unit within 6 inches is effected).

And where does that say targeted again?

 DeathReaper wrote:
The part that tells us that every unit within 6 inches is effected means those units it effects are the target of the power.

Citation?
Targeted has a specific meaning in 40k. As such, you need to prove your assertion.
Edit: Your stance means that the DoM can only ever assault a unit within 6". Also, you're allowing the DoM to target during the opponents turn.