If the chaos Primarchs come back?

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**Orthineous**

If the Chaos Primarchs return at the next Black Crusade or whatever, would that prompt the loyal Primarchs to return or would the IoM now have to fight the Demon Princes and their legions by themselves?

**Arcsquad12**

The Primarchs are already leading assaults in the 13th Black Crusade.

Plus, Angron had at least two massive attacks of his own without Abaddon. First War for Armageddon and the Dominion of Fire. (also, the Dominion of Fire caused more damage in two hundred years than Abaddon has done in ten thousand across 13 crusades.)

**Rysaer**

Also if I'm thinking right Magnus has already launched at least one war on the Space Wolves after he sent the Thousand Sons to wage war on 'The Fang' after tricking a vast portion of their forces to another part of space to hunt him down.

This is from the Space Marine Battles book 'Battle for the Fang' I think.

My memory is both terrible and vague, apologies.

**Arcsquad12**

Perturabo had the Iron Cage incident following the Heresy as well.

**Orthineous**

Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant if all of the Chaos Primarchs together in one sector of space with the full force of their legions at their command.

**Psienesis**

Orthineous wrote:
If the Chaos Primarchs return at the next Black Crusade or whatever, would that prompt the loyal Primarchs to return or would the IoM now have to fight the Demon Princes and their legions by themselves?

Most of the Loyalist Primarchs... quite possibly all of them... are dead.

**Just Dave**

Sure. I mean, they'd only all come back in such a manner in an advancement of the story* towards the apocalypse/end times. Which would therefore be scripted to have the loyalist Primarchs return at the same time to try and stop them.

*And as such, ain't never gon' happen!

**willhman**

Orthineous wrote:
Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant if all of the Chaos Primarchs together in one sector of space with the full force of their legions at their command.

Probably fight each other in the name of their god

**Just Dave**

Psienesis wrote:
Orthineous wrote:
If the Chaos Primarchs return at the next Black Crusade or whatever, would that prompt the loyal Primarchs to return or would the IoM now have to fight the Demon Princes and their legions by themselves?

Most of the Loyalist Primarchs... quite possibly all of them... are dead.

Prove it.

**MarsNZ**

Arcsquad12 wrote:
The Primarchs are already leading assaults in the 13th Black Crusade.

Plus, Angron had at least two massive attacks of his own without Abaddon. First War for Armageddon and the Dominion of Fire. (also, the Dominion of Fire caused more damage in two hundred years than Abaddon has done in ten thousand across 13 crusades.)

From Lexicanum:

In the end it took four Space Marine chapters, two Titan legions and more than thirty Imperial Guard regiments to retake what the Imperium had lost. Ninety percent of the area has since been recovered by the forces of Mankind.

Pretty sure it took more than 4 Chapters to beat Abaddons crusades. There was that corrupted saint who sent 30 chapters into the Eye of Terror, probably affected the Imperium more than this.

**Arcsquad12**

MarsNZ wrote:
Arcsquad12 wrote:
The Primarchs are already leading assaults in the 13th Black Crusade.

Plus, Angron had at least two massive attacks of his own without Abaddon. First War for Armageddon and the Dominion of Fire. (also, the Dominion of Fire caused more damage in two hundred years than Abaddon has done in ten thousand across 13 crusades.)

From Lexicanum:

In the end it took four Space Marine chapters, two Titan legions and more than thirty Imperial Guard regiments to retake what the Imperium had lost. Ninety percent of the area has since been recovered by the forces of Mankind.

Pretty sure it took more than 4 Chapters to beat Abaddons crusades. There was that corrupted saint who sent 30 chapters into the Eye of Terror, probably affected the Imperium more than this.

And what gains have the Black Crusades garnered? Apart from the Gothic War capturing the Blackstone Fortresses and the relatively successful 13th Black Crusade, what have the other BLs done to severely damage the Imperium for any significant amount of time?

**Viersche**

There's a reason they call this guy "Failbaddon"

**En Excelsis**

Psienesis wrote:
Orthineous wrote:
If the Chaos Primarchs return at the next Black Crusade or whatever, would that prompt the loyal Primarchs to return or would the IoM now have to fight the Demon Princes and their legions by themselves?

Most of the Loyalist Primarchs... quite possibly all of them... are dead.

Pardon?

I can think of only two that are dead (Dorn & Sanguinius)

**Arcsquad12**

Ferrus Manus lost his head.

**Psienesis**

Just Dave wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Orthineous wrote:
If the Chaos Primarchs return at the next Black Crusade or whatever, would that prompt the loyal Primarchs to return or would the IoM now have to fight the Demon Princes and their legions by themselves?

Most of the Loyalist Primarchs... quite possibly all of them... are dead.

Prove it.

**sonicology**

Relax guys, Lion isn't dead he's just taking a nap.

If things get really hairy then he'll wake up and lay the smackdown on the traitor primarchs.

Psienesis wrote:
Definitely dead:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Roboute_Guilliman#.URrTOfKoT2k

Guilliman isn't dead, he's preserved in status seconds away from death.

Ward will probably find a way to miraculously heal him so he can lead the smurfs back to glory

**Cyvash**

Psienesis wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Orthineous wrote:
If the Chaos Primarchs return at the next Black Crusade or whatever, would that prompt the loyal Primarchs to return or would the IoM now have to fight the Demon Princes and their legions by themselves?

Most of the Loyalist Primarchs... quite possibly all of them... are dead.

Prove it.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jaghatai_Khan#.URrUFPKoT2k

dosn't Khan jus thave to escape the ciity of commaragh or something?

**Brother Sergeant Bob**

Russ went out for a pack of cigarettes and is totally coming back.

Plus who needs primarchs when we hav super awesome Grand Masters who carve names into Demon Primarch hearts?

**Just Dave**

Psienesis wrote:

Definitely dead:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogal_Dorn#.URrTEPKoT2k
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinius#.URrTJvKoT2k
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Roboute_Guilliman#.URrTOfKoT2k
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ferrus_Manus#.URrTmfKoT2k

Probably dead:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Leman_Russ_%28primarch%29#.URrT5_KoT2k
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vulkan#.URrT9fKoT2k
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jaghatai_Khan#.URrUFPKoT2k
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Corax#.URrUJfKoT2k

Asleep:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson#.URrUOPKoT2k

Linking me the lexicanum articles - which I've all read before - only proves that 3 of them, not most of them, are definitely dead.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

Sanguinus - Slain by Horus
Dorn - Slain while boarding a chaos ship
Ferrus Manus- Head chopped off by Fulgrim

Khan - Last seen chasing Eldar into the webway, rumoured to be fighting in gladiator fights on Commargh
Vulkan- Departed, rumour is he will return when the Salamanders find all of his relics, 3 left to find
Leman Russ- Dived head first into the EoT with the 13th company, his armour was recovered but nothing else probably still running wild
Gulliman - In a stasis field moments away from death, rumoured to be healing
Corax - Last seen heading off for the EoT IIRC quoting Edgar Allan Poe

The Lion- Hanging with Luther in the rock

**Psienesis**

You lot can accept the bedtime stories told to children to make them sleep at night about the return of the Primarchs, but I'm looking at this from the grimdark, realistic viewpoint.

These mo'fethers are dead. Guilliman's head is about to fall the feth off his neck, and time doesn't pass in a stasis field. The idea that he's healing is a religious delusion.

**1hadhq**

Psienesis wrote:
... but I'm looking at this from the grimdark, realistic viewpoint.

Really?

Is it preferrable to know your Primarch is dead ( F.M. for example ) or to know he's sitting on his

for 10 millenia?
Did those "living" Primarchs contribute much in the last decades of 40k background?

Maybe some would be better off with...being dead. Looking at you, chaos minions..

**Psienesis**

See, that's the beauty of the Chaos Primarchs. They've been sitting on their butts for 10,000 years, and while they command a great deal of respect amongst the surviving/still-sentient Legionnaires, and anyone they happen to have beaten into submission, there's nothing saying that any of the CSM that have come into the fold in the last few thousand years need to give a gak about them. Chaos strikes me as a faction that is, from the top down and the bottom up, very much around the idea of "what have you done for me lately?"

Having the Traitor Primarchs on the field is kind of a big deal, sure, but on the other hand, them being partially (or nearly completely) daemonic also brings along a whole lot of things to be concerned with that normal mortals just don't need to worry about in the course of battle, at least not in the same way.

... and, really, if you think about it, the Imperium has seen some terrible gak in the last couple thousand years that, if any of these Primarchs were going to come back "for the end times", you'd think they might have shown up by now? Or are they waiting for the Necron-Tyranid-Eldar-Dark Eldar-Hrud-Enslaver-Tau conglomo-army to be on Terra's doorstep (literally) before showing up and winning the day?

And if they are, who gets to be the guy who turns to them and says, "Couldn't you lot have gotten off your asses before we lost the rest of the Imperium??!!"?

You gotta wonder how strong the average Marine's faith is in these various prophesied returns when you have enemies pressing in on all sides, major planets falling, the dead rising to walk (and kill), new, raging infernos of threats cropping up as soon as you put out one little fire... one would think that, if anyone was going to "come back" for the "end times", they'd have done it.

**Shredsmore**

Psienesis wrote:
Orthineous wrote:
If the Chaos Primarchs return at the next Black Crusade or whatever, would that prompt the loyal Primarchs to return or would the IoM now have to fight the Demon Princes and their legions by themselves?

Most of the Loyalist Primarchs... quite possibly all of them... are dead.

Actually a good number of them are still alive.

**Psienesis**

No... one of them is known to be still alive. He's asleep on the Rock, of course, but he's the only one confirmed as of 999.M41 to be alive.

An argument can be made for Guilliman... but he's sealed in a stasis field at the moment of death with a huge-arsed gash in his neck that has arterial spray frozen in time shooting out of it.

The rest are all either confirmed dead, or are more-than-likely dead.

**Pilau Rice**

Psienesis wrote:

The rest are all either confirmed dead, or are more-than-likely dead.

Show me your confirmation of this please.

Corax is missing, Vulkan is missing, The Khan is missing, Leman Russ is missing.

There is no fluff that I am aware of that states otherwise.

**Just Dave**

Pilau Rice wrote:
Psienesis wrote:

The rest are all either confirmed dead, or are more-than-likely dead.

Show me your confirmation of this please.

Corax is missing, Vulkan is missing, The Khan is missing, Leman Russ is missing.

There is no fluff that I am aware of that states otherwise.

He hasn't acknowledged they're not confirmed as dead, but instead chooses to look at it "from the grimdark, realistic viewpoint" - a few posts down.

Y'know, despite it being increasingly less grimdark; with Sanguinor defeating the bloodthirster that almost killed his Primarch, Draigo strolling through the warp, Lion having been confirmed as recovered, and so forth...
As I said, if GW were to advance the story so that the Chaos Primarchs all team up and start to ravage the Imperium, then they'd bring back the loyalists too IMHO.

**Pilau Rice**

Just Dave wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Psienesis wrote:

The rest are all either confirmed dead, or are more-than-likely dead.

Show me your confirmation of this please.

Corax is missing, Vulkan is missing, The Khan is missing, Leman Russ is missing.

There is no fluff that I am aware of that states otherwise.

He hasn't acknowledged they're not confirmed as dead, but instead chooses to look at it "from the grimdark, realistic viewpoint" - a few posts down.

Y'know, despite it being increasingly less grimdark; with Sanguinor defeating the bloodthirster that almost killed his Primarch, Draigo strolling through the warp, Lion having been confirmed as recovered, and so forth...
As I said, if GW were to advance the story so that the Chaos Primarchs all team up and start to ravage the Imperium, then they'd bring back the loyalists too IMHO.

The Khan riding in on Doomriders bike with the previous owners corpse spread eagled on the the front, Corax flying in on two chained up Helldrakes etc etc

**Just Dave**

Pilau Rice wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Psienesis wrote:

The rest are all either confirmed dead, or are more-than-likely dead.

Show me your confirmation of this please.

Corax is missing, Vulkan is missing, The Khan is missing, Leman Russ is missing.

There is no fluff that I am aware of that states otherwise.

He hasn't acknowledged they're not confirmed as dead, but instead chooses to look at it "from the grimdark, realistic viewpoint" - a few posts down.

Y'know, despite it being increasingly less grimdark; with Sanguinor defeating the bloodthirster that almost killed his Primarch, Draigo strolling through the warp, Lion having been confirmed as recovered, and so forth...
As I said, if GW were to advance the story so that the Chaos Primarchs all team up and start to ravage the Imperium, then they'd bring back the loyalists too IMHO.

The Khan riding in on Doomriders bike with the previous owners corpse spread eagled on the the front, Corax flying in on two chained up Helldrakes etc etc

Vulkan skips in with the Skulltaker tied to the end of a stick. Whilst Russ sits and watches, wiping his butt with a bloodthirster, yep...

**Enceladus**

Wouldn't matter if all the Daemon Primarch's got together in a merry warband and knocked on the Emperor's front door with smiles on their faces, because all know Matt Ward would have Kaldor Draigo answering said door, challenging them all to a simultaneous arm-wrestle, beating them while still eating his Weetabix, then surfing victoriously down the steps of the great citadel on his storm shield like a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, high-fiving all of the loyalist Primarch's that just showed up 2 minutes too late for a piece of the pie.

In all seriousness though, it'll be a very VERY long time before we see the Daemon Primarch's and/or the loyalist Primarch's re-emerge into the fray. That said, it's the innevitable conclusion, it's the only way I see the story closing - if and when it ever does.

Daemon Primarch's return. Lead the End Time Crusade, ravaging the entire galaxy, arriving at Terra only to be greeted by the happy smiling faces of the conveniently returned loyalist Primarch's.
The battle lasts for hundreds of years, and dozens upon dozens of books, and GW rides off into the sunset by saying the Emperor wakes up, zaps the universe into a state of warm cuddlyness and we all lived happily after after. Then we find out the Chaos taint survived the zap of warm cuddlyness in the deepest darkest corners of the universe and we rinse and repeat the previous 10,000 years.