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Hey guys, so this came up in a game i had a while ago and we decided to ignore it but im curious as to how it should be played.

So the situation was i had a squad of DC with Lemartes, the Squad didnt have Jump packs. I declared a charge against a squad of Necron warriors with Lemartes at the front of my squad, nothing happened with overwatch, and i wondered if becuase im using Lemartes as the initial charging model and he didnt use his jump pack during the movement phase, can he use his jump pack to charge even though the rest of the squad dont have JP ? to get the reroll-able distance, and also Hammer of Wrath (for himself) ?

In the end we ruled it as no, but i still made the charge and destroyed the warrior squad

So what do you guys think ? did we make the correct ruling ?

Thanks in advance

Since a squad has to move at the speed of its slowest model (in this case all but one model, lol) I would imagine the charge would have to be resolved in a similar manner.

this is what i think, as was asked, and not necessarily an accurate interpretation of the rules.

If this happens, I would allow it. I can imagine lemartes foot slogging with his death company squad. When they all see the enemy, they charge in. Lemartes, being the one with the jump pack, activates it and be first in the fray. LOL...


Lemartes, the angry marine on table top screaming F*** You while drop kicking a warrior head in.

p10 "Sometimes a unit will contain models that move at a different speed. When this is the case , each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance as long as it remains in unit coherency,"

p26 "If a unit has models that roll different for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model."

So Lemartes can move 12" and charge 2d6" with the squad. He can never use his jump pack to get a charge range bonus HOWEVER he can use it to get Hammer of Wrath if he only moves up to 6" in the movement phases.

Page 10 and page 26 do not apply, the whole unit is moving at the same speed, 2d6, I agree though that there is no 're-roll generated for the jump pack

Sadly not going to happen.
See "Jump Units" on page 47
The entire unit must use this form of movement, or non can. As the unit does not have jump packs, Lemates can not use his.
So no Hammer of Wrath either.

 Formosa wrote:
Page 10 and page 26 do not apply,

Why not?

 grendel083 wrote:
Sadly not going to happen.
See "Jump Units" on page 47
The entire unit must use this form of movement, or non can. As the unit does not have jump packs, Lemates can not use his.
So no Hammer of Wrath either.

ah.

The whole unit has to use has to use the same form of movement to gain the bonus, page 47, the units speed has no effect as soon as the assault phase happens as at that point the whole units speed is 2d6.

 grendel083 wrote:
Sadly not going to happen.
See "Jump Units" on page 47
The entire unit must use this form of movement, or non can. As the unit does not have jump packs, Lemates can not use his.
So no Hammer of Wrath either.

Uhm...

"ASSAULT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack to
charge into assault, it can
re-roll its charge distance.
Funhermore, to represent the crushing
impact of such a charge, a model that
uses its jump pack to charge gains the
Hammer of lUrrath special rule for the
remainder of the turn."

Model, not unit.

In fact, under Skyborne, Movement phase, and assault phase it only references "model". Even in the section of the rule(s) you're referencing, it starts by saying unit then moves on to saying model. The "Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement" is only referencing units of jump models, meaning that if one jump model jumps in the movement phase they must all jump. The rules for jump units have no bearing on non-jump units.

Also look at the character rules -

CHARACTERS AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their
type, whether Infantry,Iump Infantry, Bike, etc. However,
remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any
unit they are in (see page 11).

Why are you foot slogging DC with Lemartes? Sounds like a waste of a reall Deathstar unit, since your going to take forever getting to the opponent. Just put 5 DC and Lemartes in a Stormraven and get all the benefits.

I'm not trying to upset, but I can't see wasting points and getting the whole squad blown up.

It's still a good question - maybe his original squad got killed? A similar problem would arise with footslogging characters leading cavalry or beast units.

Anyway I'd agree he gets his hammer of wrath since it refers to model in the unit types section but you obviuously can't re-roll the whole unit's charge distance.

 perhow wrote:
It's still a good question - maybe his original squad got killed?

Lemartes is not an independent character, so he could not join another squad if his original squad was killed.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Sadly not going to happen.
See "Jump Units" on page 47
The entire unit must use this form of movement, or non can. As the unit does not have jump packs, Lemates can not use his.
So no Hammer of Wrath either.

Uhm...

"ASSAULT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack to
charge into assault, it can
re-roll its charge distance.
Funhermore, to represent the crushing
impact of such a charge, a model that
uses its jump pack to charge gains the
Hammer of lUrrath special rule for the
remainder of the turn."

Model, not unit.

In fact, under Skyborne, Movement phase, and assault phase it only references "model". Even in the section of the rule(s) you're referencing, it starts by saying unit then moves on to saying model. The "Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement" is only referencing units of jump models, meaning that if one model jumps in the movement phase they must all jump. The rules for jump units have no bearing on non-jump units.

Also look at the character rules -

CHARACTERS AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their
type, whether Infantry,Iump Infantry, Bike, etc. However,
remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any
unit they are in (see page 11).

That's all irrelevant sadly. Read the part before about jump units. If the whole squad doesn't use jump packs to assault, then none can. Lemartes cannot use his, as the squad can't use that form of movement. It is covered, just earlier than your quoted rules

It is not irrelevant, it is only a statement saying jump units can use their pack only once per turn. There is nothing there saying that an entire unit has to be jump units to use their packs.

You also seem to ignore everything else I pointed out that refutes what you (and others) have said regarding "jump units".

By your own reasoning then, in the situation granted by the OP here then Lemartes would not have Bulky or Deep Strike rule either. FYI, that's not true. Otherwise when an IC joined up with Triarch Praetorians or Necron Destroyers or Wraiths and the IC was not a Jump Unit then that entire unit loses DS and Bulky as they are no longer a "Jump Unit".

Unfortunately, it's true - the whole unit must use jump packs, or not at all. Some of you need to read page 47 a bit more thoroughly, it's easily missed as it's not in bold or anything:
"Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement."
Page 47, first paragraph, about 3/4 down.

 Super Ready wrote:
Unfortunately, it's true - the whole unit must use jump packs, or not at all. Some of you need to read page 47 a bit more thoroughly, it's easily missed as it's not in bold or anything:
"Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement."
Page 47, first paragraph, about 3/4 down.

I did not miss it, I'll quote what I said earlier -

" Even in the section of the rule(s) you're referencing, it starts by saying unit then moves on to saying model. The "Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement" is only referencing units of jump models, meaning that if one jump model jumps in the movement phase they must all jump. The rules for jump units have no bearing on non-jump units. "

Eh that kinda does kill the idea of one model in a unit assaulting with a jump pack.

The restriction on jump packs is a general one of units must move together using the same mode of movement. What part of a mixed squad allows you to change that fact?

If all models in a unit must assault using jump packs for one to use it then lemartes can never jump into combat unless he's the only man left or the remaining DC models have jump packs.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Unfortunately, it's true - the whole unit must use jump packs, or not at all. Some of you need to read page 47 a bit more thoroughly, it's easily missed as it's not in bold or anything:
"Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement."
Page 47, first paragraph, about 3/4 down.

I did not miss it, I'll quote what I said earlier -

" Even in the section of the rule(s) you're referencing, it starts by saying unit then moves on to saying model. The "Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement" is only referencing units of jump models, meaning that if one jump model jumps in the movement phase they must all jump. The rules for jump units have no bearing on non-jump units. "

The trouble is, in this instance Lemartes *is* a part of the Death Company. He's bought as part of the unit and is not an Independent Character - so he can't be considered as a separate unit. If the Death Company don't have jump packs, he can't opt to use his as he would then be breaking the rule.

...I also disagree with your point about it switching back to model. It switches between model and unit over the course of the entire Jump section, but model is not mentioned in that direct rule, nor even directly after it.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Unfortunately, it's true - the whole unit must use jump packs, or not at all. Some of you need to read page 47 a bit more thoroughly, it's easily missed as it's not in bold or anything:
"Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement."
Page 47, first paragraph, about 3/4 down.

I did not miss it, I'll quote what I said earlier -

" Even in the section of the rule(s) you're referencing, it starts by saying unit then moves on to saying model. The "Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement" is only referencing units of jump models, meaning that if one jump model jumps in the movement phase they must all jump. The rules for jump units have no bearing on non-jump units. "

The trouble is, in this instance Lemartes *is* a part of the Death Company. He's bought as part of the unit and is not an Independent Character - so he can't be considered as a separate unit. If the Death Company don't have jump packs, he can't opt to use his as he would then be breaking the rule.

...I also disagree with your point about it switching back to model. It switches between model and unit over the course of the entire Jump section, but model is not mentioned in that direct rule, nor even directly after it.

I wasn't saying he was an IC nor does it matter that he's part of the unit as a standard character. The rules for Characters are clear that they still move as their standard unit type, and assault moves ARE moves.

And what are you talking about it does mention model?

"jump units can use their jump packs
once each turn to move more swiftly in
either the Movement phase or the Assault
phase - they cannot use their jump packs
in both phases in the same turn. If not
using its jump pack, a model moves as
a normal model of its type. Indeed, a
Jump unit can always choose to move as
a normal model of their type if they wish.
Note that the entire unit must always use
the same form of movement. Units that
are described as
'moving like'Jump units
follow all of the rules for Jump units, and
use the same special rules."

Then look at skyborne - No mention of "unit".

Then look at movement phase - no mention of "unit"

Then look at assault phase - no mention of "unit".

The only mention of unit is saying that when one model in a jump unit uses it's jump then all jump models must use their jump packs.

If they wanted it to operate the way you are saying then they would have worded it exactly like they did with "fleet".

 Kevin949 wrote:
The only mention of unit is saying that when one model in a jump unit uses it's jump then all jump models must use their jump packs.

Skyborne is used on a model-by-model basis. HOWEVER in order to even use that rule you have this restriction:

BRB p47 Jump Units wrote:Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement

Is the entire unit using the same form of movement? No definitely not.
So Lemartes cannot use his jump pack in the assault phase (he is part of the unit, and the restriction is the ENTIRE unit).
The only movement he can use, is normal infantry movement.

You're missing the fact that if the Death Company doesn't have jump packs then its not a 'jump unit'.

 Ghaz wrote:
You're missing the fact that if the Death Company doesn't have jump packs then its not a 'jump unit'.

Are you saying that the restriction to use the same mode of movement is limited only to jump pack units?

You're missing that the rule for jump units is only for them, not for mixed units. You also seem to completely disregard that characters also always move as their base unit type regardless to who they're joined to.

Ghaz, it does not matter. Lemarates is a character with a jump pack and he moves as such (see above).

Unit must charge at the speed of their slowest model. pg 21
Notice how this is different to the statement on pg 10 about mixed movements within a unit. Obviously they are not treated the same. As it is there is no permission to use the re-roll from the jump pack when charging in Lermartes' case. I think that is clear.

Next you claim it's not a jump, infantry unit, hence it's cool to pop the jump pack. If the unit is not jump infantry then we must assume that it is just an infantry unit. Since that is the only clear line there is again no permission for the model to use a jump pack and gain HOW because the rules for infantry units are that they move as per their movement phase 2D6". That is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're missing that the rule for jump units is only for them, not for mixed units.

Agreed there is only permission for jump units and models within it to do all the cool stuff jump units do.

Sir Blayse wrote:
Why are you foot slogging DC with Lemartes? Sounds like a waste of a reall Deathstar unit, since your going to take forever getting to the opponent. Just put 5 DC and Lemartes in a Stormraven and get all the benefits.

I'm not trying to upset, but I can't see wasting points and getting the whole squad blown up.

They were in a raven, i was testing lemartes and didnt want to fawk out 150points for 10 jump packs, so i put them in the raven which was already in the list, used hovermode and charged out

Both sides of this argument are rather convincing so im going to continue watching how this goes from the sideline

Your "models" quotes refer to later subsections of the Jump rule - none of these give you permission to break the rule about the entire unit moving in the same way.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're missing that the rule for jump units is only for them, not for mixed units.

As liturgies said - regardless of whether the unit is counted as mixed or non-Jump on the whole, some models do NOT have the Jump rule. As such this also means that they do not have permission to use the other subsections of the Jump rule, such as passing over terrain or moving 12" in the Movement phase.
If *ANY* models in a unit don't have Jump, then one model attempting to use theirs means the entire unit cannot move in the same way, so it would break the rule.

Note that this means you can't use the jump pack on an IC if he's attached to a unit that doesn't have them either. Bikes, jetbikes, beasts etc. however do NOT have this restriction.

In regards to Bulky and Deep Strike - Bulky counts per model so yes, Lemartes still counts as 2 models for transport and the rest of the DC as 1 each. There's no conflict there.
Deep Strike specifies in its very first line that all models in the unit must have the rule in order to use Deep Strike. If you're saying that Lemartes can use his Jump pack if the DC can't, then you're also saying he can Deep Strike if they can't.

 Super Ready wrote:
Your "models" quotes refer to later subsections of the Jump rule - none of these give you permission to break the rule about the entire unit moving in the same way.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're missing that the rule for jump units is only for them, not for mixed units.

As liturgies said - regardless of whether the unit is counted as mixed or non-Jump on the whole, some models do NOT have the Jump rule. As such this also means that they do not have permission to use the other subsections of the Jump rule, such as passing over terrain or moving 12" in the Movement phase.
If *ANY* models in a unit don't have Jump, then one model attempting to use theirs means the entire unit cannot move in the same way, so it would break the rule.

Note that this means you can't use the jump pack on an IC if he's attached to a unit that doesn't have them either. Bikes, jetbikes, beasts etc. however do NOT have this restriction.

In regards to Bulky and Deep Strike - Bulky counts per model so yes, Lemartes still counts as 2 models for transport and the rest of the DC as 1 each. There's no conflict there.
Deep Strike specifies in its very first line that all models in the unit must have the rule in order to use Deep Strike. If you're saying that Lemartes can use his Jump pack if the DC can't, then you're also saying he can Deep Strike if they can't.

So you just want to completely ignore the characters rules for movement then? And the movement rules in general? Just because some models don't share a rule does not mean they can not use it. No it is quite the opposite, it means their rules don't confer to the unit unless specified.

Also note, I am mentioning CHARACTERS, not specifically independent characters. I know my example above with necrons was referencing Characters with the IC rule but that's just the best example I have personal experience with.

Regarding bulky and deep strike, look at the entry for the special rules under Jump Units. It says "Jump Units have the Bulky, Deep Strike and Hammer of Wrath special rules." So if you continue down your line of thinking then obviously a unit with 1 or more non-jump model then they are no longer a "jump unit" and do not have those special rules.

Being able to use a rule and HAVING a rule are two separate things, and even if lemartes can't benefit from deep strike that is not the point here. The point is the existence of the rule. For instance, Deathmarks with an attached cryptek. The cryptek does not have deep strike so they can not use deep strike but that does not mean the deathmarks do not HAVE deep strike.

That's almost exactly the reasoning behind my argument - thank you for putting it so eloquently. Lemartes has a jump pack... so he gets Deep Strike, but can't use it. It is the same with the jump pack - he has it, but he can't use it, because not everyone in the unit has one. However, it's only that way specifically because the Jump entry has the line about the entire unit moving in the same way. Likewise with the Deathmarks. They can't use Deep Strike... it's still THERE, it's just not doing anything if a Cryptek's attached.

Another example. Skyborne - "when using its jump pack... a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely." Lemartes can't do this since he has to use the jump pack, not merely have it. It's the same for the Movement and Assault phase, the rules state the model must be using its jump pack in order to take advantage, not just have ownership of one. That is then covered by the rule on page 47 stating that the entire unit must "use" the same form of movement.

To answer the question on basic movement - the rule stating each model may move at its own individual speed as long as it keeps coherency is a basic rule. That's why I mentioned bikes and beasts, as it still applies there, but Jump being advanced rules overrides this.

This has, however, made me realise - you're right on Bulky, well spotted. That's poorly written and needs clarifying, in my opinion page 47 should say Jump *models* have Bulky and Deep Strike, but I guess we'll have to wait and see on that.

No, because there is no such stipulation in the jump rules similar to the one in the deep strike or fleet rules.

You are so stuck on that one line you are not understanding that line is in reference ONLY to jump models and in relation to them and it is not saying that any unit they happen to be in has to move the same way, it is saying that jump units that activate their jump packs must all do it at the same time.

Now you bring up "basic vs. advanced" but you don't realize that characters is an advanced rule AND it's referencing the specific ability to move as it's base unit type.

Here, since you brought it up lets look at this on page 7 - Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

You can make all the quotes you want and just say "that won't work because he can't do it" but that's not a rules argument. I understand what you're saying won't work because of what you think is the way the rule(s) work. It's not the rule I think you're not understanding, it's the context of the rule I don't think you get. Though I'm sure you say the same about me.

I don't see anything in the advanced character rules on page 63 relevant apart from where it mentions they follow the usual movement rules for models of their type. The rule for different movement distances within a unit is on page 10 - basic rules.
Page 47 specifically says:

"Note that the *ENTIRE UNIT* must always use the same form of movement."

...emphasis mine of course, but - how on earth can you interpret that to refer only to jump models? It says the ENTIRE UNIT. It doesn't say Jump models only. I don't see how that can be any clearer.