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Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

When does a company have a "right" to fire an employee for conduct outside the workplace?

For those who haven't seen this in the news, an executive decided to get stinking drunk on a flight home from whereever he was. He made a racist comment about a mixed-race toddler and apparently hit the child as well as cursing at the mother.

http://gma.yahoo.com/executive-accused-slapping-toddler-plane-loses-job-145302655--abc-news-topstories.html

I didn't see anything about the former exectutive being on a business trip or not, so here's the question to Dakka, when does an employee's off-work conduct allow an employeer the "right" to fire him/her? I'm not talking about when is it legal, in most states it is legal no matter what or where, I'm looking at this more as a "separation of ..." issue.

If I decide to start smoking pot in my garage on Saturday evenings (legal in Washington State now) does Microsoft have the "right" to fire me for it? If not, what does a person have to do to "deserve" being fired for non-work conduct?


 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Contracts will often stipulate that conduct off the clock the reflects negatively on you can result in firing, since it could have blow back on the company.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Dorset, Southern England

Probably a move so the press can't attack the company.

People draw stupid conclusions that each employee is entirely representative of the company they work for.

BlapBlapBlap: bringing idiocy and mischief where it should never set foot since 2011.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:What sort of idiot quotes themselves in their sigs? Who could possibly be that arrogant?
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 djones520 wrote:
Contracts will often stipulate that conduct off the clock the reflects negatively on you can result in firing, since it could have blow back on the company.

Yup... this.

Especially the higher up you go.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Typically, if an employee's off-duty behaviour would count as either gross misconduct at work, or a criminal charge, then a company is justified in sacking the staff member.

Gross misconduct may also include sullying the reputation of the company.

All this would be in the contract of employment at larger companies.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






Bringing the company into disrepute is a common clause for contracts, especially for more senior staff. It is hard for the airline to cultivate the right image to customers if an executive gets blind drunk, is racist and violent.
If this individual's conduct was as bad as reported then I personally have no problem with him being removed from his post.
It is a little similar to the guy who drove through the Chik-Fil-A drive through and verbally accosted the staff there because of comments made by their Chief Executive. He was fired after he uploaded the video to youtube so the world could bask in his stupidity.

 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 Breotan wrote:

If I decide to start smoking pot in my garage on Saturday evenings (legal in Washington State now) does Microsoft have the "right" to fire me for it? If not, what does a person have to do to "deserve" being fired for non-work conduct?



If a part of your contract stipulated that you wouldn't do that, then yes Microsoft could.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

But what if my contract had no such stipulation? Only the usual "illegal substances" clause? Since pot isn't illegal here, what "right" does Microsoft have?

 
   
Made in us
Bane Thrall





Well for Washington, it's a Fire at Will state so they can fire you for whatever they want.

Edit: Except of course for discriminatory reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/18 23:43:52


GW Rules Interpretation Syndrom. GWRIS. Causes people to second guess a rule in a book because that's what they would have had to do in a GW system.


 SilverMK2 wrote:
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Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Is it an "employ at will" state? In NH either party can sever the employment contract for any or no reason.

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Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 Breotan wrote:
But what if my contract had no such stipulation? Only the usual "illegal substances" clause? Since pot isn't illegal here, what "right" does Microsoft have?

A lot of contracts also cover the use or abuse of controlled substances, which may include alcohol, some medications etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/19 04:15:38


 
   
Made in gb
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator




Seems highly unfair.
If I'm a neo-nazi in my free time and I do my job perfectly, what business is it of my employer if I attend KKK rallies so long as it doesn't effect my job performance?

Also where does the line end - with the (crazy) neo-nazi example, but say what about something like the BNP in the UK (right wing, nationalist) whereby if you're a member you can't be a teacher or police officer...
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






Totally justified in firing him. Beyond a certain point, position wise, you are more or less an ambassador for your company on or off the clock.


However, people need to stop forcing their shrieking spawn on the rest of the world, too. We need non harmful baby tranquilizers, stat.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Bromsy wrote:
Totally justified in firing him. Beyond a certain point, position wise, you are more or less an ambassador for your company on or off the clock.


However, people need to stop forcing their shrieking spawn on the rest of the world, too. We need non harmful baby tranquilizers, stat.

That exists!

It's called "chloroform"... Oh... I meant... a Nintendo DS!

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






 whembly wrote:
 Bromsy wrote:
Totally justified in firing him. Beyond a certain point, position wise, you are more or less an ambassador for your company on or off the clock.


However, people need to stop forcing their shrieking spawn on the rest of the world, too. We need non harmful baby tranquilizers, stat.

That exists!

It's called "chloroform"... Oh... I meant... a Nintendo DS!


19 months is a little young for a DS... but a dab of whiskey in the bottle will knock em right out.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

 Spyral wrote:

Also where does the line end - with the (crazy) neo-nazi example, but say what about something like the BNP in the UK (right wing, nationalist) whereby if you're a member you can't be a teacher or police officer...



You can't be a teacher or a police officer if you're a BNP member?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

You don't want to be fired for bringing shame to the company? Then don't accept a promotion that makes you one of the public faces of the company.

I would imagine that his contract is a lot more involved than mine, especially considering that I don't have one....
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Bromsy wrote:

19 months is a little young for a DS... but a dab of whiskey in the bottle will knock em right out.


There's all kinds of iPad stuff for kids under 2. They sit there transfixed putting heads on cows and gak like that. It's brilliant.

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Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

I think we should just stick small children in cargo, you know with the dogs and cats and what not.

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Made in gb
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 Hordini wrote:
 Spyral wrote:

Also where does the line end - with the (crazy) neo-nazi example, but say what about something like the BNP in the UK (right wing, nationalist) whereby if you're a member you can't be a teacher or police officer...



You can't be a teacher or a police officer if you're a BNP member?

Nope.

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Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

I've never been sure about that...
On one hand I don't particularly trust anyone in the BNP not to abuse a position like that but at the same time it's not exactly the height of freedom.

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Made in au
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The Fallen Realm of Umbar

 Joey wrote:
 Hordini wrote:
 Spyral wrote:

Also where does the line end - with the (crazy) neo-nazi example, but say what about something like the BNP in the UK (right wing, nationalist) whereby if you're a member you can't be a teacher or police officer...



You can't be a teacher or a police officer if you're a BNP member?

Nope.

Is it actually legislated or one of those no sane person would ever things, because it doesn't seem right to not give someone a job based on their political beliefs.

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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

BNP members are banned from the Police and Prison Service, not from teaching.

Obviously there are occasions when people's political beliefs become relevant to their employment.

It would hardly a good idea for example to give people a job in the CIA whose political beliefs were that the People's Republic of China should become supreme power in the world.

Whether that is true for the Police and Prison Service is a matter for debate.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Coastal Bliss in the Shadow of Sizewell





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

Heh, we have that in our staff contracts and we're a little village shop in the back water of Suffolk. I'm pretty sure its also been every contract I have ever signed in the past, be it Tesco down to a small town shop I worked in.

I think its a normal contract condition here in the UK, anything that could hurt the company/shop reputation equals bye bye baby.

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Spyral wrote:
Seems highly unfair.
If I'm a neo-nazi in my free time and I do my job perfectly, what business is it of my employer if I attend KKK rallies so long as it doesn't effect my job performance?

Also where does the line end - with the (crazy) neo-nazi example, but say what about something like the BNP in the UK (right wing, nationalist) whereby if you're a member you can't be a teacher or police officer...


Now I realize you're not a Neo Nazi, and were using this as an example, but I have to say if you are a Neo Nazi then you would need to research your history and philosophy a little more. The Nazi Party would fully support private enterprise doing what it desires in this matter.
If this is the state of Neo Nazi education, Hitler would be spinning in his grave.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I think we should just stick small children in cargo, you know with the dogs and cats and what not.


His problem wasn't smacking the kid -wrong target. He should have been smacking the parents.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/19 12:08:58


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Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Breotan wrote:
If I decide to start smoking pot in my garage on Saturday evenings (legal in Washington State now) does Microsoft have the "right" to fire me for it?


There is a company that prides itself on firing it's employee for smoking regular cigarettes if it finds out about it via it's mandated testing, let alone any illegal stuff.

This is how "at-will employment" works. The company can fire for any reason at all, or no reason, with the exception of discriminating against a protected class. You can be fired for being too tall. You can be fired for not being tall enough. You can be fired for being too fat, or too ugly, or having crooked teeth, or being left handed, or for having a bumper sticker on your car the boss doesn't like, or no reason at all. In turn, you are free to walk away at any point for any reason.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Flinty wrote:
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Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

Guy got what he deserved. He smacked a kid on a plane? Lucky the family didn't sue in addition to him losing the job. Would be even more appropriate and awesome if the previous place of business paid for the family's lawyer against him.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in us
Bane Thrall





 Ouze wrote:
 Breotan wrote:
If I decide to start smoking pot in my garage on Saturday evenings (legal in Washington State now) does Microsoft have the "right" to fire me for it?


There is a company that prides itself on firing it's employee for smoking regular cigarettes if it finds out about it via it's mandated testing, let alone any illegal stuff.

This is how "at-will employment" works. The company can fire for any reason at all, or no reason, with the exception of discriminating against a protected class. You can be fired for being too tall. You can be fired for not being tall enough. You can be fired for being too fat, or too ugly, or having crooked teeth, or being left handed, or for having a bumper sticker on your car the boss doesn't like, or no reason at all. In turn, you are free to walk away at any point for any reason.




I support at-will employment!

GW Rules Interpretation Syndrom. GWRIS. Causes people to second guess a rule in a book because that's what they would have had to do in a GW system.


 SilverMK2 wrote:
"Well, I have epilepsy and was holding a knife when I had a seizure... I couldn't help it! I was just trying to chop the vegetables for dinner!"
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Squatting with the squigs

If you aren't clocked on, wearing a uniform or on a business trip, in my opinion you are not representing the company.
Doing a job for someone does not entitle them to control your life out of hours. You are a private citizen not a company holding.
Smoking pot? As long as you aren't too dregged out the next morning i don't see the problem. . Someoine smoking pot at microsoft might help them get more "creative".

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Made in au
Lady of the Lake






But, when the media finds out which company you work for it no longer matters as taking that attitude can be spun to condoning it.

   
 
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