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Ok, now it seems to me that from a fluff perspective, the CSM legions should have more variants of well... everything than their loyalist brethren, not less. I mean, for starters, their hands aren't tied by the AdMech when it comes to modifying equipment. Additionally, they would have a greater need to perform battlefield repairs than would loyalist chapters. Additionally, due to a lack of greater logistical support I can't see any reason why there wouldn't be a greater need to modify vehicles to fit the battlefield roles intrinsic to these gaps in logistics & equipment.

For example, what stops World Eaters from installing an assault ramp on a rhino or Iron Warriors mounting reaper autocannons, or any heavy weapons for that matter, on a rhino chassis as a quasi-razorback?

Or, how about putting a battlecannon on a vindicator? I'm not huge on the fluff overall, but logically speaking it would seem to me that there's really no reason that CSM legions, especially ones like the Iron Warriors, can't modify any vehicle to fulfill any battlefield role that they lack instead of just taking traitor guard along for their heavier tanks & guns.

Because nobody can think of anything unique when it comes to CSM, CSM have to be hamstrung so that it's just a "Variant" of C:SM with special "Mark" options after the 4E codex. Because Kelly phoned in the last codex with just a few things and left it at that.

Believe me, I've had this conversation plenty of time.

There's an entire Dark Mechanicus, there's entire worlds dedicated to gods that produce special Daemon Engines, the fact that at best they can't even create an assault vehicle that's better for assaulting then the Imperium's is Abysmal, you hear about it all the time in the fluff, you just don't get rules for it.

One thing I would love to have would be a Land Raider Obiterator, now come on fluff wise it would perfectly fit especially with Warpsmiths. Obliterators are infected with a virus so they can morph their weapons now imagine if a Warpsmith actually used his brain to infect vehicles with the virus. We would now have obliterator style tanks which can morph their weapons each turn so they can take on anything we have chaos tech marines they should bloody get off their butts and actually make something chaos needs like more assault vehicles or cool raider variants. Land Raider would be best as Chaos badly needs a variangt of the land raider since Loyalists get so many its not bloody funny if loyalists can do it chaos should do it better. Unfortunately its not the case so it will only be fan made

That's somewhat unfair isn't it.
The CSM have always been a SM variant list.
All 4th ed provided was a few more special rules for the legion specifics with the odd extra unit such as basilisks and cultists.

The current dex has all the basic troop choices, plus all the Daemon machines, warpsmiths etc.

There has been more new units in this dex than I have known before.

4th edition was a croc codex, with some lists being blatantly abused, whilst others ineffective depending on Legion. Unbalanced is an understatement.

As for why the Rhinos etc should have more upgrades...
I agree, there are no reasons why they shouldn't. But Upgrades can only be given to something that can adapt to it.

Your own example of Assault Ramp rhinos, all well and good, but where does the driver sit?
They could however become the quasi razor backs, but then that brings them even close to codex CSM.

All 4th ed provided was a few more special rules for the legion specifics with the odd extra unit such as basilisks and cultists.

The current dex has all the basic troop choices, plus all the Daemon machines, warpsmiths etc.

There has been more new units in this dex than I have known before.

3.5 edition. 4th was Gav Thorpe.

However 3.5 had far more units because at the time, Daemons wasn't split as well, chaos had all of its mutations intact, and there was far more to generals.

For example, A daemon prince didn't use to be a gigantic beast, because not all of them were. They usually gained a mutation to reach that right. A DP back then was a lord overburdened with lots fo mutations.

Chaos Sorcerer lords existed, along with far more options with mutations. It made the lord Vastly different from an equipped chapter master, being given gifts, sorcerers powers, and could take a Retinue of chosen back then.

Things made more sense, Chaos Terminators weren't seperate from Chosen, because back then you simply equipped chosen with Terminator suits, and could even take a Sorcerer chosen aspiring champion. They didn't even given CSM a retinue the lords could actually take this time around again. Back when they could take Terminator Chosen, or Power Armored Chosen.

Giving marks to units allowed them to take wargear from their respective god list.

Possessed could take upgrades rather then relied on a random table. They could take wings and become jump troops, talons for rending, ranged fire (though it was crappy), or another attack.

To represent chaos space marines as trained, long lived legions, the basic CSM could even take veteran skills. CSM with Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Infiltrate, MTC, Night vision, What have you! Back then, in SM Veterans only had the options, and usually limited. CSM were such variety they could take near anything.

Cult units weren't specific, they were units with the mark. Though it made it easier now that you can mark units without them going elite. So that much I agree with to say the least, but now it means they are separate when it comes to giving wargear.

Ability to mark Vehicles, still a far step up from todays markless Dreadnoughts.

4th edition was a croc codex, with some lists being blatantly abused, whilst others ineffective depending on Legion. Unbalanced is an understatement.

Yes, and all codex who have proven to be very strong should have their options ripped from them, half their units stuffed into another codex, and made weak as a shadow of its former self ...Wait, couldn't they have just Y'know. Balanced it? Or will we be needing to do the same with Necrons?

In general, while there might "Potentially" Be more units (Which is false, as Daemons were included in CSM back then) The options chaos had was INCREDIBLY VARIANT compared to today's lackluster soul given by fourth edition's trainwreck of a codex.

Your own example of Assault Ramp rhinos, all well and good, but where does the driver sit?
They could however become the quasi razor backs, but then that brings them even close to codex CSM.

Well it would stand to reason if the ramp is in front the driver would sit in back & operate the vehicle via parascope.

I don't wanna see CSM copy every toy in SM but more my argument was that background/fluff wise they should have much greater distinction between them & loyalists. Not quite as crazy of contraptions as Orks but less vanilla than ultras.

 Red_Starrise wrote:

Your own example of Assault Ramp rhinos, all well and good, but where does the driver sit?
They could however become the quasi razor backs, but then that brings them even close to codex CSM.

Well it would stand to reason if the ramp is in front the driver would sit in back & operate the vehicle via parascope.

I don't wanna see CSM copy every toy in SM but more my argument was that background/fluff wise they should have much greater distinction between them & loyalists. Not quite as crazy of contraptions as Orks but less vanilla than ultras.

Wouldn't envy the job of driving that.

I feel open-topped, rather than assault-ramp, rhinos are more suitable for Chaos personally. I included them as an upgrade in my 5th Ed CSM fandex (for about 15pts IIRC), with the following fluff/justification:

An anomaly has been noticed with the Traitor Astartes deployment of Rhino Armoured Personnel Carriers; a notable number appear to be open-topped, with the upper-section of the Rhino removed.

Initially it was assumed this was due to refitting and repairs; that the Heretics were getting desperate after millennia of warfare and are being forced to salvage armour plating from less vital areas to cover battle damage and implement repairs.

However, based on recent examination and post-conflict salvage it has become evident that in-fact firing steps having been fitted alongside the removal of the roof. These modifications allow Traitor Astartes to more quickly and brutally engage Imperial forces, as Traitor Space Marines fire from the Rhino with impunity, or assault troops vault over the sides of the Rhino to engage in close combat.

It is recommended that these modified Rhinos be identified as quickly as possible and made priority targets. Ultimately, the cost to Imperial forces if these units reach the Imperial Battle Lines is too great for such vehicles to not be made priority targets or given a wide berth.
- Inquisitor Graven. 39827781. M41.

 Eetion wrote:
That's somewhat unfair isn't it.
The CSM have always been a SM variant list.

How? They've had a separate book since 2nd which is when Space Marines became Space Marines and not genetically enhanced criminals in power-armor.

 Eetion wrote:
All 4th ed provided was a few more special rules for the legion specifics with the odd extra unit such as basilisks and cultists.

The 3.5 book had quite a bit more in terms of wargear and choices, but as already noted, this was before daemons were split off. In any case, legion rules existed prior to the 3.5 dex in the form of Chapter Approved articles.

 Eetion wrote:
The current dex has all the basic troop choices, plus all the Daemon machines, warpsmiths etc.

Then where are Doomrider and Cypher?

 Eetion wrote:
There has been more new units in this dex than I have known before.

Heldrakes, Forge/Maulerfiend, mutilators (obliterators without guns), the grenadeless warp-talons (just raptors), and the watered-down techpriest (no servitors)? Hardly an improvement. And what did we lose? Oh yeah, the other half of our codex, which is now a separate book.

 Eetion wrote:
4th edition was a croc codex, with some lists being blatantly abused, whilst others ineffective depending on Legion. Unbalanced is an understatement.

This is very much true. But the vast majority of the 'broken' in the codex no longer applies due to the changes in how CC works. Anyway, no-one really wants a return to that codex. We just want our flavor back. Additionally, unbalanced is... normal in 40k. Guard and Necrons are ridiculously over the top and Tyranids are well, useless, now.

 Eetion wrote:
As for why the Rhinos etc should have more upgrades...
I agree, there are no reasons why they shouldn't. But Upgrades can only be given to something that can adapt to it.
Your own example of Assault Ramp rhinos, all well and good, but where does the driver sit?

It would probably just be possessed. No need for a driver. And anything can be adapted with warp-tech. Add to this the fact that Iron Warriors and Dark Mechanicum have no illusions regarding the sacred nature of machines, and they still actually remember how things work. It's true that raw materials are scarce, but that's not really a problem for legions that operate behind enemy lines (Alpha Legion, Night Lords, not to mention renegades like the Red Corsairs)

 Eetion wrote:
They could however become the quasi razor backs, but then that brings them even close to codex CSM.

Nobody is really asking for razorbacks, we'd just likes some of the stuff that made sense like mutated hull, or coruscating warp flame, or parasitic possession. Marks for vehicles.

What do I really want?
I'd be satisfied with Dreadclaw assault pods, Wargear for Slaaneshi characters (I can't even give my lord a doom siren or a themed daemon weapon? C'mon, people), mortis pattern dreadnoughts, and the ability to at least give bikes or jumpacks to Dark Apostles and Warpsmiths.
Ideally I'd like a page or two for each of the the legions giving them special rules and drawbacks (in the form of list limitations). I mean, seriously, we have 5 seperate Space Marines Codexes, and CSM can't even get a variant list for legions?
GW could definitely do better without making a broken or boring codex.

Hmmh. I would argue that CSMs are less prone to employ extensive modifications as they have even less access to qualified personnel than the Adeptus Astartes. They lack the expertise and don't want to risk the few things they have. Yes, there is a Dark Mechanicus, but from how I understand it that organisation exists entirely separate from the CSMs and isn't even a partner like the AdMech and the Astartes are in the Imperium. The most I could see the CSMs get from that direction would be a few unique pieces of equipment as part of a trade, but not something that an army would field with any regularity. Could make an interesting idea for "dark relic wargear", however.

On the other hand, I think CSMs should have a wider variety of existing Imperial wargear and vehicles they looted from somewhere else, essentially tapping into other armies' lists and stealing, say, a vehicle, modding it with spikes and garish colours before turning its guns against its former owners. After all, CSM Warbands tend to be scattered groups of homeless rogues who have to make up for their missing supply lines with looting stuff from those who have it. I'm not entirely sure if such a special rule might not lead to balancing concerns, though, or diminish the unique character of other army lists.

Variant codices like the different marine chapters would be amazing for chaos space marines. I'd love a death guard codex and i'm sure there are a lot more chaos players who'd love an iron warriors codex.

I can't see GW doing this though. Nothing more than a pipe dream.

I do feel that Dreadclaws aren't really suitable due to their self-destructive/passenger destructive, ancient, design; but that's not to say Chaos could just come up with a new kind of Drop Pod.

 Red_Starrise wrote:

Your own example of Assault Ramp rhinos, all well and good, but where does the driver sit?
They could however become the quasi razor backs, but then that brings them even close to codex CSM.

Well it would stand to reason if the ramp is in front the driver would sit in back & operate the vehicle via parascope.

I don't wanna see CSM copy every toy in SM but more my argument was that background/fluff wise they should have much greater distinction between them & loyalists. Not quite as crazy of contraptions as Orks but less vanilla than ultras.

Well they could just drive their normal rhinos in reverse if thats the plan. Main problem is that the structure of the rhino is weakest at the ramp, which is why they are placed at the rear. Furthermore any anti-tank round worth its salt sprays liqued metal trough the armour, frying the passengers who have no additionel protection from the buffer zone normal rhinos have. Not to mention that a ramp in the front gives the enemy a few seconds to put heavy fire into the opening, turning the rhino into a shell trap.

On other equipment, they have weird and warpy tech, but this is mostly seen in larger warbands. They have to have something to offer the dark mechanicus for that tech. The equipment they have can easily be replaced/stolen from the Imperium which still uses similar stuff. Its reliable, they know how it works and ammunition is easier to come by. Special equipment might be hard to repair or find power sources for. Deamon engines are quite unreliable, its also a question if its worth the risk. They are giant engines possesed by a really angry deamon who doesnt care about who it kills, which is why they are always chained or deactivated by the Chaos Marines. The way I see it is that this is as bad as they can make it without making it too powerful too control.

 Just Dave wrote:
I do feel that Dreadclaws aren't really suitable due to their self-destructive/passenger destructive, ancient, design; but that's not to say Chaos could just come up with a new kind of Drop Pod.

They seemed to work just fine in the Night Lords novels. And they already exist in Imperial Armor Aeronautica.

Lynata wrote:Hmmh. I would argue that CSMs are less prone to employ extensive modifications as they have even less access to qualified personnel than the Adeptus Astartes. They lack the expertise and don't want to risk the few things they have. Yes, there is a Dark Mechanicus, but from how I understand it that organisation exists entirely separate from the CSMs and isn't even a partner like the AdMech and the Astartes are in the Imperium. The most I could see the CSMs get from that direction would be a few unique pieces of equipment as part of a trade, but not something that an army would field with any regularity. Could make an interesting idea for "dark relic wargear", however.

The Iron Warriors novels amply demonstrate that the more intact Legions have no problem refreshing their equipment. Aside from that, the most recent codex explicitly states that the dark mechanicum supplies the daemon engines.

chuxfm wrote:
Variant codices like the different marine chapters would be amazing for chaos space marines. I'd love a death guard codex and i'm sure there are a lot more chaos players who'd love an iron warriors codex.

And I'd like a Codex: Valhallans, and a Codex: Order of the Sacred Rose, and ...
See where this is going? It's bad enough we have so many Marine books. They are not necessary - I'd rather like GW to expand upon existing armies with little articles on their website (like the army list PDFs) or in White Dwarf (like they used to years ago).

That, however, is just a pipe dream as well.

deathholydeath wrote:The Iron Warriors novels amply demonstrate that the more intact Legions have no problem refreshing their equipment. Aside from that, the most recent codex explicitly states that the dark mechanicum supplies the daemon engines.

I'm sure the novels do.

 Lynata wrote:

chuxfm wrote:
Variant codices like the different marine chapters would be amazing for chaos space marines. I'd love a death guard codex and i'm sure there are a lot more chaos players who'd love an iron warriors codex.

And I'd like a Codex: Valhallans, and a Codex: Order of the Sacred Rose, and ...
See where this is going? It's bad enough we have so many Marine books. They are not necessary - I'd rather like GW to expand upon existing armies with little articles on their website (like the army list PDFs) or in White Dwarf (like they used to years ago).

I'd love for them to do this as well. Chapter approved articles were the only reason I ever bought WD. Ah, I remember when GK were just a single chapter approved article...

 Lynata wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:The Iron Warriors novels amply demonstrate that the more intact Legions have no problem refreshing their equipment. Aside from that, the most recent codex explicitly states that the dark mechanicum supplies the daemon engines.

I'm sure the novels do.

Given that this session of mental gymnastics is based on fluff, it seems a logical source to draw on. And like it or not, The Black Library is official GW fluff now.

deathholydeath wrote:I'd love for them to do this as well. Chapter approved articles were the only reason I ever bought WD. Ah, I remember when GK were just a single chapter approved article...

Would also be a good way to introduce "mini add-ons" to existing armies, such as Inquisitors and their retinue, or a Deathwatch Kill-team ...

... ah, the possibilities!

deathholydeath wrote:Given that this session of mental gymnastics is based on fluff, it seems a logical source to draw on. And like it or not, The Black Library is official GW fluff now.

Black Library has always been official - but that doesn't mean that whatever its freelancing authors publish needs to be compatible to what GW's own writers put into a Codex.

However, I've been getting ahead of myself - the novels, or any other licensed product, is just as valid as Codex fluff, which means it is left to everyone's own preferences what to pick. And I shouldn't assume that others share my own views regarding what should come first, so I have to apologise for that little remark.

Also, it seems that the novel might even be in line with what GW originally came up with themselves, given that Index Astartes describes the Iron Warriors' new homeworld as "a bleak gaol world where slaves toiled and died while great Chaos warships were tethered to its tallest towers wherein resided the Warriors themselves." Should've probably looked that up first, too. Still, I would assume that this is the exception more than the rule, but that is obviously just my interpretation of the CSMs, which is as I have to admit pretty focused on their existence as roving brigands who keep their armouries stocked chiefly by raiding Imperial worlds and shipping lanes. That's just how I read about them most often.

 Lynata wrote:
]And I'd like a Codex: Valhallans, and a Codex: Order of the Sacred Rose, and ...

Well they did make Codex Catachans, Craftworld Eldar Etc. I don't think its that far out of the question for them to make a chaos marine expansion dex.

White Dwarf codices seem few and far between nowadays. Shame. That magazine has gone downhill. Bring Fat Bloke back

 Just Dave wrote:
I do feel that Dreadclaws aren't really suitable due to their self-destructive/passenger destructive, ancient, design; but that's not to say Chaos could just come up with a new kind of Drop Pod.

Rhino with a parachute

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
I do feel that Dreadclaws aren't really suitable due to their self-destructive/passenger destructive, ancient, design; but that's not to say Chaos could just come up with a new kind of Drop Pod.

Rhino with a parachute

Honestly, I would LOVE to see that. Would be a brilliant conversion.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
I do feel that Dreadclaws aren't really suitable due to their self-destructive/passenger destructive, ancient, design; but that's not to say Chaos could just come up with a new kind of Drop Pod.

Rhino with a parachute

HA!.

Bloodthirster with a kangaroo pouch.

 Just Dave wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
I do feel that Dreadclaws aren't really suitable due to their self-destructive/passenger destructive, ancient, design; but that's not to say Chaos could just come up with a new kind of Drop Pod.

Rhino with a parachute

Honestly, I would LOVE to see that. Would be a brilliant conversion.

New Concept art released



Edit: oops, spoilers tags added

And there it is....

Microsoft paint 40K concept art


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm so bored at work im literally gonna start a microsoft paint concept art competition on another thread.

We'll give the winning submission to Games Workshop IN PERSON.

and see what comes of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please post that picture in this thread Pilau

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/508938.page