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Here's a question I've been wondering about.

The Stormraven is now available to C:SM armies.

Can a Stormraven transport a Venerable Dreadnought or an Iron clad Dreadnought?

I'm leaning towards no, as there is a discrete Dreadnought entry in the codex.
What is the collective wisdom of Dakka on this matter?

Yes they can it states "Dreadnought" in the entry so that it does not have to list every type. Also since the BA version can carry all BA dreadnoughts.

 Snappenthetwig wrote:
Yes they can it states "Dreadnought" in the entry so that it does not have to list every type. Also since the BA version can carry all BA dreadnoughts.

Well, RAW it'd only be able to carry Dreadnoughts (the unit), but the same applies to BA Stormravens and I've never seen anyone play it like that.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Snappenthetwig wrote:
Yes they can it states "Dreadnought" in the entry so that it does not have to list every type. Also since the BA version can carry all BA dreadnoughts.

Well, RAW it'd only be able to carry Dreadnoughts (the unit), but the same applies to BA Stormravens and I've never seen anyone play it like that.

Yes dreadnoughts which in the BA codex is used to describe 3 types of walker in the army fluff and rules section. If I can put a DC dread in a raven I don't see any reason why an ironclad or venerable should be disallowed.

I know it covered it in the tyranid book. A doom is still a zoanthrope and Swarmlord is still a hive tryant.

I am fairly sure the same goes for all types of dreads.

The difference between the BA dreads and those in C:SM is that the former all have "dreadnought " under unit composition, regardless of flavour and unit entry; those in the SM codex however have "Ironclad Dreadnought", "Venerable Dreadnought" and plain old "Dreadnought" under their respective unit composition. And RAW, an Ironclad Dreadnought isn't the same thing as a Dreadnought, so can't be carried by the Stormraven IMHO.

Irrespective of that, I don't think I would try to make that distinction in an actual game; RAI a Dread's a Dread, they all share pretty much the same chassis.

Pretty sure the only dreadnought that cannot ride on a Stormraven is a FW Contemptor Dreadnought, and that is because FW stated specifically that it can't. All other Dreadnoughts are fine because all other Dreadnoughts are ... Dreadnoughts..

SJ

It could easily be argued that a venerable dreadnought technically isn't a Dreadnought, especially as in the rule for the Stormraven, the D is captalised, implying it's a name.

And the only unit that exactly matches is the Dreadnought.

That said, I've never even thought of this before you brought it up, or even heard anyone else bringing it up. We've always allowed any type of Dreadnought, and until GW says otherwise I will assume we still do.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure the only dreadnought that cannot ride on a Stormraven is a FW Contemptor Dreadnought, and that is because FW stated specifically that it can't. All other Dreadnoughts are fine because all other Dreadnoughts are ... Dreadnoughts..

SJ

So a Heavy Bolter is a Bolter?

No, they are technically different, because unit composition states so. They are different unit entries so RAW you can only carry vanilla dreadnoughts.

Personally I wouldnt have any issue with people loading any old dreadnought on it.

I think the technical wording does support not allowing Venerable and Ironclads aboard, but that in reality you would be hard pressed to find anyone who demands it be played that way. I certainly wouldn't.

They are listed in the back as different entries because they have different points costs and can take different stuff but they are all listed as Dreadnaughts on page 65 earlier in the book.

I vote, let 'em fly!

so some people think venerable dreadnaughts are not dreadnoughts?

main group, vehicles, sub group walkers, army entry has dreadnought in it, ergo dreadnaught.

if ironclads/venerable are not "dreadnoughts" then what are they?

would you aregue that since they are not dreads for transport, that they are not dreads for the deadnaught CCW they have too then?

easysauce wrote:
if ironclads/venerable are not "dreadnoughts" then what are they?

Ironclad Dreadnaughts and Venerable Dreadnaughts. Which are not a "Dreadnaught" unit, which is what the Storm Raven can carry.

would you aregue that since they are not dreads for transport, that they are not dreads for the deadnaught CCW they have too then?

Not that it matters for that... But no, they aren't.
The DCCW is just a x2S AP2 Melee weapon (page 60 BRB). There's no requirement to be a Dreadnaught to use it.

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
would you aregue that since they are not dreads for transport, that they are not dreads for the deadnaught CCW they have too then?

Not that it matters for that... But no, they aren't.
The DCCW is just a x2S AP2 Melee weapon (page 60 BRB). There's no requirement to be a Dreadnaught to use it.

Which is why Monstrous Creatures can use them.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
would you aregue that since they are not dreads for transport, that they are not dreads for the deadnaught CCW they have too then?

Not that it matters for that... But no, they aren't.
The DCCW is just a x2S AP2 Melee weapon (page 60 BRB). There's no requirement to be a Dreadnaught to use it.

Which is why Monstrous Creatures can use them.

I know I'm going to regret this but I cannot think of any MCs with a DCC is there any?

Dreadknights come standard with a Nemesis Doomfist, which follows the rules for DCCW.

BTW, per 5th ed;

5th edition GK FAQ wrote:Q: Does a Dreadknight with a Nemesis doomfist strike
at Strength 6 or Strength 10 in close combat? (p34)
A: Strength 6, as it is not a walker

 Happyjew wrote:
Dreadknights come standard with a Nemesis Doomfist, which follows the rules for DCCW.

BTW, per 5th ed;

5th edition GK FAQ wrote:Q: Does a Dreadknight with a Nemesis doomfist strike
at Strength 6 or Strength 10 in close combat? (p34)
A: Strength 6, as it is not a walker

That's not a Dreadnaught CCW. It's a Nemesis Doomfist. Where is it ever listed as a Dreadnaught CCW? I don't have that codex.

It has a few cosmetic similarities but not the rules for Dred CCW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I know I'm going to regret this but I cannot think of any MCs with a DCC is there any?

I'm feelin' ya.

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Dreadknights come standard with a Nemesis Doomfist, which follows the rules for DCCW.

BTW, per 5th ed;

5th edition GK FAQ wrote:Q: Does a Dreadknight with a Nemesis doomfist strike
at Strength 6 or Strength 10 in close combat? (p34)
A: Strength 6, as it is not a walker

That's not a Dreadnaught CCW. It's a Nemesis Doomfist. Where is it ever listed as a Dreadnaught CCW? I don't have that codex.

Page 54 of the Grey Knight codex.

 Happyjew wrote:
Dreadknights come standard with a Nemesis Doomfist, which follows the rules for DCCW.

BTW, per 5th ed;

5th edition GK FAQ wrote:Q: Does a Dreadknight with a Nemesis doomfist strike
at Strength 6 or Strength 10 in close combat? (p34)
A: Strength 6, as it is not a walker

No idea why you posted that FAQ since 6th edition changed that...

In 5th, DCCWs doubled the strength of a Walker equipped with one. In 6th that's no longer the case and that FAQ was updated.

I might be under-thinking this but in *my* space marine codex:

p63 - Dreadnoughts.

Includes the info for all three. They're only listed separately in the army list section, same as for the blood angels one.

Ergo - they fly!

so assault terminators are not terminators, they are asault terminators?

there are more then one type of dreadnought,

and they are all listed under the dreadnought army entry, even though the list has them as elites/heavy choices

this is a case of learn to read


main class:
vehicle
sub class
walker
unit type
dreadnought
variation's on unit type include different weapons, special rules ect


just because venerables have the word venerable before the dreadnaught,
does not suddenly make them non dreads, reading 101

a ______ cup of coffee, is still a cup of coffee, weather it is a good, bad, or magic cup of coffee, it is still a cup of coffee


you have monstrous creatures, and jump monstrous creatures,

are jump monstrous creatures no long MC?


adding a descriptor to a class does makes you a more specific part of that class, it does not make you into a different class, it simply divides the class further

rossatdi wrote:I might be under-thinking this but in *my* space marine codex:

p63 - Dreadnoughts.

Includes the info for all three. They're only listed separately in the army list section, same as for the blood angels one.

Ergo - they fly!

Guess what's relevant for embarking? Unit composition. What's the Unit Composition of a Venerable Dreadnaught? (Hint: It's on page 137)

easysauce wrote:so assault terminators are not terminators, they are asault terminators?

According to their Unit Composition (you know... that pesky thing that determines whether you can embark or not) they're terminators (with a terminator sergeant)

this is a case of learn to read

Pretty quick with the insults, eh?

main class:
vehicle
sub class
walker
unit type
dreadnought

Citation required.

just because venerables have the word venerable before the dreadnaught,
does not suddenly make them non dreads, reading 101

As far as Unit Composition it absolutely does. And guess what matters for embarking in a transport?

you have monstrous creatures, and jump monstrous creatures,

are jump monstrous creatures no long MC?

Jump is a subclass of MC, so it's actually Monstrous Creature (Jump) just like it's Infantry (Jump).

adding a descriptor to a class does makes you a more specific part of that class, it does not make you into a different class, it simply divides the class further

And Venerable is not a descriptor, it's a different Unit Composition.

yes, it is a venerable dreadnought,

which is a type of dreadnought

RAI is pretty clear, they go in storm ravens,

RAW is also clear,

unless you torture the language, and think that:

a ball is a ball

a red ball is not a ball


that is incorrect

the english language works this way:

a ball is a ball

a red bal is a ball that is red

hence

a dread nought is a dreadnought

a venerable dreadnaught is a dreadnaught that is venerable

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Dreadknights come standard with a Nemesis Doomfist, which follows the rules for DCCW.

BTW, per 5th ed;

5th edition GK FAQ wrote:Q: Does a Dreadknight with a Nemesis doomfist strike
at Strength 6 or Strength 10 in close combat? (p34)
A: Strength 6, as it is not a walker

That's not a Dreadnaught CCW. It's a Nemesis Doomfist. Where is it ever listed as a Dreadnaught CCW? I don't have that codex.

Page 54 of the Grey Knight codex.

What does the entry say? I don't have that codex. Does it call it a DCCW? A DCCW doubles strength, the Doom fist doesn't.

yes codex GK nemisis doomfist says to refere to 40k rule book on DCCW,

and it does 2x the str in this edition now,


also in previous editions, venerable dreads were not gimped at str 6, because suprise suprise, they are deadnoughts

easysauce wrote:
yes codex GK nemisis doomfist says to refere to 40k rule book on DCCW,

and it does 2x the str in this edition now,


but in previous editions, venerable dreads were not gimped at str 6, because suprise suprise, they are deadnoughts

Well then, There ya' go. I learned something new. It was off topic, but good to know.

rigeld2 wrote:

rossatdi wrote:I might be under-thinking this but in *my* space marine codex:

p63 - Dreadnoughts.

Includes the info for all three. They're only listed separately in the army list section, same as for the blood angels one.

Ergo - they fly!

Guess what's relevant for embarking? Unit composition. What's the Unit Composition of a Venerable Dreadnaught? (Hint: It's on page 137)

Sorry, where does it say this? I've got all the relevant books in front of me, there's no mention in the rulebook about additions to the normal transport capacity rules requiring only army list descriptions. It says that "this will be specified in the unit's entry" (p78) not the unit composition. So where's the unit entry?

The unit entry, and therefore rules saying what a BA stormraven can carry, is in the "Angelic Host" section (p38) and in the same section (p29) is the entry for Dreadnoughts. If I go to the army list, each Dreadnought type is listed with the same page reference (p29) that lists them all as Dreadnoughts.

easysauce wrote:
a dread nought is a dreadnought

A Dreadnaught is a unit with the Unit Composition of 1 Dreadnaught.

What is the Unit Composition of a Venerable Dreadnaught unit?
I ask, because according to page 78 that's what is used to determine if a model can embark - not the name of the unit or anything else.

rigeld2 wrote:

rossatdi wrote:I

easysauce wrote:so assault terminators are not terminators, they are asault terminators?

According to their Unit Composition (you know... that pesky thing that determines whether you can embark or not) they're terminators (with a terminator sergeant)

This type of reasoning wouldn't hold up to scrutiny. Scout squads and Legion of the Damned wouldn't contain any Space Marines. The Master of the Forge would also not be a Space marine, nor would any of the named characters. Veteran squads would only include one Space Marine Sergeant with the rest being veterans.

rossatdi wrote:
Sorry, where does it say this? I've got all the relevant books in front of me, there's no mention in the rulebook about additions to the normal transport capacity rules requiring only army list descriptions. It says that "this will be specified in the unit's entry" (p78) not the unit composition.

The Transport Capacity rules dictate only Infantry and Independent Characters (that are Infantry) can embark.
Exceptions are listed in the Transport's entry.
The Storm Raven has an exception for, in the BA Codex, "a single Dreadnaught".
Since Transport Capacity is measured in numbers of a unit type (which is what Infantry and Independent Character must be referencing) we can only conclude that the word "Dreadnaught" refers to Unit Type.

Please answer the question - what is the Unit Type of a Venerable Dreadnaught?