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Hey all,

So at the urging of some local friends, and some friends I've never met right here on Dakka, I took the plunge and started up Hordes. This here's intended to be a running account of my efforts as I get into the game. For veterans, there may not be a lot here- and in fact, it may make for some excruciatingly painful reading as I stumble about. But I did something similar when I was first getting back in to Warhammer, and found that there were enough newbies (and kindhearted vets) that the series was somewhat well received. Or perhaps tolerated would be a better word.

Motivation

I'm trying the game out mostly because after something of a gaming hiatus, I returned to find my favorite local opponents all are playing Warmachine/Hordes, perhaps not to the exclusion of Warhammer, but at least in preference to the same. I don't intend to give up the latter, (and in fact am working on a Slaanesh cavalry army) but thought it was worth trying out.

Faction

Some time ago, I'd picked up Calaban the Gravewalker, but after pricing out some of the gator stuff, I realized I could get a head start much cheaper via one of the battle boxes. Plus, immediately after assembling him, I dropped him and his heavy metalness exploded him across the floor. Option 2! Scanning Privateer Press's gallery on theirwebsite, I excitedly committed to a Retribution starter. One trip to the game store later, I learned that this starter was not, in fact, released yet. Option 3! Skorne? Almost entirely on the strength of the Bloodrunner models, which is possibly a stupid reason, but whatever. This was the third attempt, I knew the local area was rife with Trollbloods (which I quite liked the look of, but didn't want to be another one in the crowd), and somewhere in the time since their original release, the Titans had actually grown on me.

Assembly

Harder than I expected. Plastic cement did not seem to work on this plastic, and the titan didn't fit together as well as I would have liked. Mold lines in some obnoxious places, and present in great quantity. I missed some that would later come back to haunt me. Morghoul in particular was difficult to clean and assemble neatly, though I was impressed at how thin they were able to make him. Despite these frustrations, I soothed myself with the idea that this was a little something on the side, and it didn't have to be perfect.

Painting
Despite the concerns with with assembly, I've found the models quite enjoyable to paint. It's also much more motivating to know that you're knocking out bigger chunks of your force per model than in other games. I'll post pictures of each as I finish them.

First up? Sam the Savage:



If only he could have been Prescient enough to avoid my sub-par blending attempts.

I like how the color scheme worked out (did *not* care for the standard Skorne scheme drenched in red), and this guy looks better when I'm not jamming a camera up his nose. Its a pretty good paintjob for me- but my usual nice tabletop standard. I'll need to eventually freehand something on his banner, and maybe do that thing where people mark the base so you're clear on what's forward and what's not.

Rules

Who knows? Once upon a time, I'd owned Primal MkI, so had some familiarity. Additionally, the local game store has a lending library, and I was able to check out Primal Mk II and have a bit of a read. I'd gotten enough to know I'd be a little lost for a while.

What's Next?

Game 1- vs. Aaron's Khador, in which I learn what it is like to punch a massive ingot of iron repeatedly.

(Note: Until I've got a painted force, I wont be doing full on picture reports, but those may potentially follow.)

First off welcome to the WM/H.

Secondly Scorn has enough heavy hitters not to worry too terribly about getting through Khadors high amour.

Personally I agree that painting most of the models are fun, One thing that got me though was I found in my mind that because of the lower model count I tend to want to paint everything in the army to a higher standard. Which let me tell you kinda sucks when your 10 models into a 15 man squad of Winterguard......

Thanks for the encouragement vs. Khador- but I should note that the game is already in the bag. I just hadn't had the idea to write things up till now.

And your reasoning for paint quality is quite sound. If I wasn't also trying to paint up an army for WHFB, I'd be spending a little more time with it, I think.

Awesome man.

Let me tell you that nothing I repeat NOTHING put the fear of god into a Khador player like seeing 2 Bronzbacks on the opposite side of the table.....

And that's including Gaspy3.....

Yeah, Bronzebacks are awsome. They never ever cease to pay out, and what they hit they will kill.

And Paingivers, get some. Because getting +2 str and charging for free is stupid good. They some other cool stuff too... like healing your beasts or messing the opposition beasts up


With a Titan's animi, Enrage from Paingivers, and some Abuse from Morghoul. a Bronzeback hits at P+S 21 on his fists and has an 11.5" threat range. And you still have all 5 of your Fury to buy attacks with. A regular Titan has the same threat with only one less Pow.

Good to see you in this section, Zeke, hoping for some of your Batreps to make an appearance, too.

Game One

This was a little intro game- my opponent was Aaron, whose Empire I'd tangled with on many occasions over in WHFB. Aaron had given me the impression that he'd only just started the game, but he's either way fast at painting or had been doing so for a while, and had quite a raft of Khador put together and painted. (Actually, I know it to be the former. He paints much better than I, and much faster. Jealousy abounds.)

With a couple more experienced players on the edges to help us out with rules questions (and, annoyingly, to coach the Khador side it seemed) we got set up. We played at Battle Box level, which is to say 11 points. After some talk of scenario we elected to just try to beat each other up, since I was just learning the rules.

He brought: Orsus Zoktavir, Butcher of Khardov, Beast 09, and the generic version of the same (Juggernaut?).

I had my Battle box of Master Tormentor Morghoul, 2 Cyclops savages, and a Titan Gladiator.

I was able to strike first with the help of admonition* on my Titan, but all three beasts piling on the Juggernaut failed to cripple a single system. Morghoul's feat kept the counter-punch kinda light (though I was still pretty wowed by the damage output).

I eventually dragged down the Juggernaut, but had to commit Morghoul for the last couple damage points. I thought he'd be safe from counter attack, but Beast 09 left my gladiator's threat range, lost his legs to the free strike (we didn't realize this would end his activation) and then froze Morghoul with his axe.

At this point I figured out that Morghoul had been waving his claws at me the whole game, trying to let me know he couldn't transfer damage if a beast was maxed out on fury. Lesson learned (or was it?).

I might have had a hail mary to go after Butcher with anatomic precision, and a savage, but it seemed like his defense was pretty good on top of some crazy armor, so that was pretty much probably not going to happen.

In short, I played like I had a pair... of teeth... with all the rest having been kicked out the back of my head. Butcher never even had to do anything put use some spells and his feat.

I learned (lots of things, but big lessons were)...

...how to transfer damage.
...that if there's only one threat to Morghoul, it might be better to have admonition on him so no one swings at him in the first place.

Rules

*What happens if you admonition away from a charger who has targeted you? Is the charge failed? When my titan shimmied away from the Juggernaut's charge, there was still a Cyclops in melee range. Could it have swung on the Cyclops?

Are there arguments over measuring in this game? We didn't have any, but at one point, Beast 09 was engaged with my Gladiator, and charged Morghoul over a wreck marker. So we had to move him...

...in a straight line
...always getting closer to Morghoul
...at half speed through the wreck marker
...in a way that tried to stay within 1/2' of the titan, but also to know where he was when he left, so we knew when to free strike.
...far enough to get within his 2" reach distance.

I felt like we needed about 6 tape measures down at the same time.

Feel of the game

Enjoyed it quite a bit, though I was spending a lot of time thinking "Ohhhhh, I get it now." It was impressive how much there was to think about with only 7 miniatures on the table. I got the taste of what it was like to try to set up something cool.

Next up

The big guy gets some paint!

The Savage was almost entirely painted up over the course of a single night, which gave me a rather unrealistic set of expectations for the Titan. It took quite a while to paint, but in contrast to the assembly and prep, which was a bit of a bear, painting was quite a joy. My technique could obviously use some refining, but I'm happy with the end result.



I hear I may get to see the front of this model quite a bit, since apparently, the standard battle stance for titans is spun-around-so-the-tusks-fit.



Freehand on the banner to follow once I've got enough done to actually have pictured batreps.


What's Next?

Headbutting rocks against the Circle of Orobororbororos!

I would recommend grabbing beast handlers an replacing the cyclops asap. Skorne has some of the heaviest hitters for beasts, and the Csavages are rather weak unless they're supporting. A bronzeback is almost a must have for sheer power.

That said, morghoul isn't that good of a battlebox caster. He needs his army better suited to do it's job since he kinda flounders on his own.

a note for assembly for new Warmachine people...

User super glue on the plastics, plastic glue doesnt work well at all.

^this

The material PP uses for their plastic models is a different kind of plastic from other models. I think its more like PVC.

*What happens if you admonition away from a charger who has targeted you? Is the charge failed? When my titan shimmied away from the Juggernaut's charge, there was still a Cyclops in melee range. Could it have swung on the Cyclops?

Answer: Admonition triggers when a model ends it's movement. This means that at the end of the charge the charger has ended their movement in melee range of their charge target and the charge is considered successful. They may still take their charge attacks against another target (as per the rules for what happens when you make a succesful charge but your original target is invalid for whatever reason) however it would not be a "Charge Attack' and the damage would not be automatically boosted.

Are there arguments over measuring in this game? We didn't have any, but at one point, Beast 09 was engaged with my Gladiator, and charged Morghoul over a wreck marker. So we had to move him...

There certainly can be. Especially since you'll always be looking at the table from a different angle than your opponent. It's not there are any holes in the movements rules, there is always a correct answer. It's just the nature of the human eye, and the impression of measure tapes trying to wrangle around models that makes it crop up.

TIP: When you're going to be moving a model through rough terrain or other such effects, there are a few things you can to do help out. First measure from the REAR of the model to the REAR of the model for the movement, this is functionally identical for the purposes of the amount of ground covered from measuring front-to-front or middle to middle with one advantage: Since you're subject to rough terrain for the whole time you're in, you know that you're always measure the last part of the model to leave the rough terrain and you can can imply count the space in the rough terrain as "Double" without having to do any really weird figuring.

Second, if you're having a lot of trouble just leave the model in place and measure the movement by placing a empty base of the same type where you think you'll it'll end up and carefully re-measure. It shouldn't take you more than a few moments an takes out a lot of the guess work.

@Chongara: Really appreciate the help with the admonition question.

@Surtur & GT: I've consistently had the feedback that I need to put a Bronzeback and Beast handlers very high on my list of future acquisitions (and I've done so). I've tried to make a rule for myself that I wouldn't buy new models for the army before painting the ones on hand, though.

Appreciate the feedback all!

Getting tangled up with the Circle

For my second game, I got to try my hand against Kiwidru's Circle. He obliged my mini battle-box sized force by putting together something quickly:

pBaldur
Woldwarden
Wold Guardian

I was my battle box:

pMorghoul
2 x savages
Gladiator

In what I suspect was an effort to be somewhat merciful we again played on a board cleared of terrain, which I realize puts Circle at a disadvantage, since what little I know is that they like to be tricky with forests.

I was a little familiar with the Warden, since I'd seen Kiwidru play before, which is to say, I knew he could relay spells or something like that.

Circle got first blood by splashing a little damage on to a savage and Morghoul with an earthspikes, and a woods also sprung up in front of me. Using abuse, I got to hack down the Woldwarden with one savage and my gladiator. Sweetness!

Then the counterpunch with the guardian blew my titan's tusks out of his butt and Baldur's feat left me scratching my head on what exactly to do. I tried positioning to sacrifice one savage so I could use the other & Morghoul to get after Baldur, but I think I mostly just wasted a turn.

Using my feat and then using Morghoul's weapons to tear all the fury off the guardian, I thought I was being very clever and denying Baldur any Fury at all, but he just damaged himself to get some. Whoops!

I still had a shot- because the Guardian needed 11s on his 2D6 to hit Morghoul and couldn't boost, but the second swing connected and smeared him all over the ground. I'd camped some Fury to transfer, but my last cyclops was, unfortunately tapped out (making that the second game in a row I'd made that mistake).

It was a super awesome game, because I knew if I could dodge the last hit, I could run over and try to get the last 10 points of damage off of Baldur with a full stack of Fury on Morghoul.

Things I learned

Reach is super handy when you're dealing with rough terrain.
Woods block line of sight! Didn't remember/realize this.
Abuse! Way handy, especially when you're swinging a bunch of attacks.
Edit: You can cut your caster for more Fury. This surprised me not once, but twice (somehow!).

Things I forgot

Don't max a beast out if you intend to transfer. Heck, I could have easily used Maltreatment in my last turn to set things up if I'd thought of it.
Admonition would have been good to set on the Titan to prevent his loss from the counterpunch. I could have managed it with Maltreatment, I think.

Things that I'm struggling with a bit.

The strategy of when to boost and when not to, especially with Future Sight (or Prescience or whatever) up. I know that should make it easier, but for some reason, I was having a hard time sorting whether it'd be better to go for another swing or not. I'd come up two short of armor and couldn't decide on the spot whether I'd have a better chance with another attack.

Things I'm looking forward to.

Finally fighting something living with Morghoul's attacks! At least he got to mess with Fury this time. Maybe next time I'll get a chance to use some of his other abilities!
Getting the Savages into more appropriate targets. I feel like they haven't been given the best light to shine in what with fighting Khador and Wold heavies...

What's Next?

Paint on Morghoul and the second savage. Then an expansion of the force!

Red, I totally support your play it painted motto. It's something I'm striving for to better myself.

I think I can help on that when to boost, when not to, but it's going to be a bit of a math lesson.

average of 2d6: 7
most likely result of 2d6: 7
average number of 3d6: 10.5
Most likely result: 10 or 11
average of 4d6: 14
most likely result: 14

This first part is pretty basic, but it's necessary to further my theory.

odds of result / min roll required:

2d6:

2 = 2.78% / 100%
3 = 5.56% / 97.22%
4 = 8.33% / 91.67%
5 = 11.11% / 83.33%
6 = 13.89% / 72.22%
7 = 16.67% / 58.33%
8 = 13.89% / 41.67%
9 = 11.11% / 27.78%
10 = 8.33% / 16.67%
11 = 5.56% / 8.33%
12 = 2.78% / 2.78%

3d6:

3 = 0.46% / 100%
4 = 1.39% / 99.54%
5 = 2.78% / 98.15%
6 = 4.63% / 95.37%
7 = 6.94% / 90.74%
8 = 9.72% / 83.80%
9 = 11.57% / 74.07%
10 = 12.5% / 62.5%
11 = 12.5% / 50%
12 = 11.57% / 37.5%
13 = 9.72% / 25.93%
14 = 6.94% / 16.2%
15 = 4.63% / 9.26%
16 = 2.78% / 4.63%
17 = 1.39% / 1.85%
18 = 0.46% / 0.46%

Odds of a critical in Warmachine on 2d6: 16.67%
3d6: 52.78%

So, with all these factiods we need to put them to use.

Attacks: When I'm attacking, I usually want to hit on 6s at very least. This gives me a 72.22% chance of hitting, aka a little better than BS 4 in warhammer terms. If I need an 8 or a 9 to hit, boosting will bring my odds to approximately those of needing a 6 to hit. Anything worse than ~66% chance to hit, I usually consider unreliable from a tactical standpoint. If you are fishing for a critical effect, you always want to boost as it makes it 3x as likely to happen. You don't need to memorize the above charts, but understanding how the curve falls will help your decisions.

Damage: Damage is a lot simpler. first you need to figure out your P+S or PS. Let's take your gladiator and buff him properly. His main attack, a guantlet, is PS16 and with Morghoul giving Abuse and a beast handler giving enrage, he becomes P+S 20. Now you need to figure out what an average attack will do to your opponent, simply add the average damage that the roll will do to the PS and subtract from the ARM of the opponent. A Khador jack (typical Juggernaut) with ARM 20 will take an average of 7 damage a hit. Now, boosting damage adds an average of 3.5 damage to the hit, but that same fury/focus point could buy an extra attack which is another 7 damage. In this situation, You do not want to boost damage because an attack is more damage output than a boost is per fury/focus. Say that it wasn't a ARM 20 Khador jack but a whopping 25 ARM Jack (Devastator)! Now that P+S + ave damage roll of 27 is only doing 2 points of damage to it. In this case the additional 3.5 damage you would get from boosting is crucial to making your attacks matter, as each point of fury/focus buying attacks only nets 2 damage.

I hope this helps.

My favorite part about playing Red_Zeke is getting my name in lights!

I thought the game was good, and we had as much back and forth as you can with 7 minis on the board! I'd say luck robbed you of a win, as I was kicking myself midturn for not going all in with Baldur and trying to put a weight of stone debuff on your caster... But who needs reliable strategy when you roll 11's?

And did I gather you are aquiring Another bipedal elephant warrior? Welcome to my nightmare.

@surtur: that's a handy algorithm for boosting, I have been mentally chiseling the specifics down, but hadnt got it quite as polished as you put it...

Kiwidru wrote:

And did I gather you are aquiring Another bipedal elephant warrior? Welcome to my nightmare.

Oh man, no. That feels a little too lopsided/inflexible at this small of points, though my newbie instincts may be steering me wrong there.

I *am* adding another titan, but he's very small and very sad...

Sounds like you are working out the early kinks pretty well Zeke! I found myself getting curb stomped pretty hard for a month before I got into the swing of things, part of which was rules and part finding a caster I liked to use. Plus, tiny games are almost harder, since there is less support structure for casters who need it, and casters who don't can just stomp around happily.

Glad to see you are getting sucked in! I look forward to the proper awesome battle reports I have come to expect from you!

These are fun reads, PLEASE PICK UP PAINGIVERS

YOUR CUTE LITTLE BEATS WANT TO BE WHIPPED <3

Morghoul is one of our better casters, but he needs some offensive beasts, Gladiator and Savage are borderline 'Support' Beasts in our army

Oh he really likes having a Brute around as well

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like you are working out the early kinks pretty well Zeke!

Don't know if I'd say that! But I'm definitely looking forward to playing some more. Really like how much there is to think about even with just a few pieces on the board.

Wehrkind wrote:I look forward to the proper awesome battle reports I have come to expect from you!

Hope to be able to oblige. I need to figure out how to adapt my format to the game, but it should be doable.

Talamare wrote:PLEASE PICK UP PAINGIVERS

OKAY! (Definitely have registered that piece of advice- and it makes sense. Just need to put them on order, since there are none on the shelves at the FLGS).

Talamare wrote:Gladiator and Savage are borderline 'Support' Beasts in our army

The Gladiator is borderline support??

Talamare wrote:Oh he really likes having a Brute around as well

Definitely in the plans. Two savages feels redundant for starters, and I like the model (and the idea of Cyclops in general).

Heh, I hear you on "Wait, this ISN'T my main killing piece?" Hordes is really interesting like that, as often a beast is amazing because of what it does for other beasts, and less of what it does alone. I remember going through Primal 2 when I started and having serious Skorne and Legion envy, and wondering why the hell I had bought into Circle. When I was done putting my knee caps back together after the first month of games though, I really got an appreciation of how deep the system can be, and how it can throw you at first glance. I had seriously under estimated how good Pathfinder and an extra inch or two of movement can be. A gladiator giving out pathfinder and 2" of movement puts him right at the "wow, that's handy!" level, allowing a buddy to charge farther, through terrain and over walls, which can make all the difference. I abuse the hell out of poor Jin like that, as if you can't charge over walls you have to stop on the other side, and if you don't have reach I can just park a few infantry ~.55 inches from the obstacle, and be impervious to attacks. (Granted, even if you have pathfinder you can pull this off, you just have to block all areas you can drop your base in.)
The fact the Gladiator's animus rides on a bad ass melee machine is just icing on the cake. If the animus came on a 4 point light beast, it would probably be auto-include, like the Gorax is in a lot of Circle lists.