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So, I've wanted to get into WHFB for a while, but my biggest problem is that the army I'd like to play, Wood Elves, don't seem to be very good.

I'm mostly interested in doing a very fast, shooty, skirmish army, based around outpacing the opponent and peppering him with shots while I never let him hit me back, at least not seriously. Glade Horsemen, Warhawk riders, that sort of thing. But I've been told that it's the worst tactic in an army that's terrible, so I've held off.

The only other thing I'd enjoy playing is a horde melee army, less about winning combat and more about being a brutal bog melee all about grinding the opponent down slowly. I've been led to believe that Vampire Counts with zombies would be best for this, because you can put an absurd amount of them on the table and just keep bringing them back, Keeping the opponent locked up the whole time.

At this point, I won't be buying an army until late this year, even possibly into spring of next year. Price won't be an object, as I'll have plenty of cash from my deployment. I'm mostly wondering if there's any solid ideas on if WEs will get an update in that time to improve them, or if the army I'd like to build with them would be at all viable. And if not, if I should just go with the VC army, and if that's at all viable.

You may want to look at Skaven as well for the horde thing if you haven't already.

The problem with WE, which I'm assuming you've been told already, is that not only are they a weak army, but you need to be VERY VERY good at the game to even really use them. Once you reach that point, though, I've seen WE players do some scary things and absolutely trounce my VC army back in 7th when it was one of the OP armies. I wasn't anything great, but they were fantastic, and they made the army work frustratingly well by completely disrupting everything I wanted to do and picking me apart.

There is something to be said for using what really appeals to you. Those players managed to do those scary things because they've put their heart into it, and dedicated themselves to learning how to make it work.

That being said, that's a hell of a long road, so if VCs are appealing on their own, then hey, it's VC time! Or Skaven. Either of those should let you do the horde grindy thing.

As Evertras said, you have to be VERY good to pull that off with wood elves. I generally go for the whole 'play what looks fun to you' approach but this is probably the one time I would suggest holding off on that.

Vampire Counts on the other hand are my favourite army so if you think you'll like them go for it [/bias]. VC can put a LOT of zombies on the field but no more than other horde armies, the difference is our ability to take a unit of 20, throw some magic at it and suddenly it is a unit of 40. Having said that though zombies are terrible at doing ANYTHING. They can only slow your opponent while you get your lord and his bodyguard into position. We have the best characters in the game (imo) and we need to sink a lot of points into them. If that appeals to you great, VC are for you, otherwise there are other armies out there that do hordes just as good as us.

I guess I'm more interesting in a unbreakable, constantly regenerating Horde army, something that the opponent simply can't grind through fast enough.

I figured on having Hexwraiths to go around and attack stuff behind their lines, with all their combat units locked trying to grind through all the zombies.

And I guess the question on WE should be if what I suggested can work. I don't mind if it's hard to make work, so long as it isn't impossible. I'm used to steep learning curves, and enjoy unconventional tactics. I just don't want to spend the money on an army that can't be made to work at all.

WE are unconventional (this edition) and can be made to work but it is a very steep learning curve.

VC on the other hand.. an army made entirely of zombies with a few hexwraiths isn't gonna cut it. At most you want 25% of your army to be zombies (that'll still get you ~150 in a decent sized game) but then the other 75% of your force is all about getting obscenely powerful characters and a unit for them to join.
Hexies are nice but you use them in a similar way you'd use WE gale riders, they are harassment at best. Your vampire lord and his unit of grave guard or black knights are where you do your damage.

Well, let's focus on the WE for a minute then. Can an army built around glade riders, hawk riders and such units be successful? If it's a hard army to run that doesn't bother me, so long as that chance for success is there.

As I've said, I'm interested in a fast moving style of army that plays keep away with my opponent while harassing him until I get the kind of combat I want, picking and choosing when we actually fight.

Shamgi wrote:
Well, let's focus on the WE for a minute then. Can an army built around glade riders, hawk riders and such units be successful? If it's a hard army to run that doesn't bother me, so long as that chance for success is there.

As I've said, I'm interested in a fast moving style of army that plays keep away with my opponent while harassing him until I get the kind of combat I want, picking and choosing when we actually fight.

If that is what you want to play, you should run dark elves. Dark Elf fast cav is better at shooting and better in melee (thanks to hatred). They also have core flyers who are disposable (harpies) and fast moving monsters to deliver the pain in combat (hydras).

It is really hard to find anything that wood elves can do that dark elves don't do better, for less points.

Dark Riders built with corsair arms and dark elf chests look awesome, and end up costing about the same as stock dark riders.
For harpies, you can use daemonette bodies and legs and tyranid gargoyle wings (with a bit of trimming).
For dark pegasi, use the bret peg with vargeist wings, I'd still use the wood elf legs, dark elf speaman body and corsair limbs.

Hmmm, might have to go back to the dark elves again...

-Matt

DE can't move terrain around... but forests lost a lot of their bite this edition, so that's less of an issue now. So yeah, probably DE.

I started a WE army recently and have had a lot of fun with them. but they are tough to play.

As for the glade riders and warhawks:

Glade riders are decent redirectors because they have a high M and, more importantly, a good Ld to rally after fleeing charges. If you use them well they can keep an expensive enemy combat block occupied for pretty much the whole game. Their shooting/combat effectiveness is negligible but 1 unit is an auto-include for me.

Warhawks however are not good, they are 40pts for 1 wound, T3 and a 5+ armour save. So they don't want to get into serious combat and GR are better (fast cav) and cheaper (more bodies/bows) as redirectors, and eagles are cheaper war machine hunters.

WE can't win games by just running around and shooting though, they still need to win a combat at some point. WE have units that can deal damage but they are generally small and fragile so you have to try and isolate enemy units and gang up on them with your dryads/wardancers/wildriders.

WE are a very unforgiving army, and one mistake can quite easily lose you the game. You have to have a lot of discipline and stick rigidly to your game plan. If that play style appeals to you though, and you are genuinely serious about being up for a very tough introduction to the game, then play the army you think is coolest. It is a lot of fun leading your opponent around by the nose and picking them off piece by piece, when it works.

I'll say VC are fun too though (from my experience playing against them), I wouldn't say they're the easiest army to play either, but very characterful and with far more opportunities to practice your evil laugh.

As a general rule, the current metagame of armour and monstrous cavalry has rendered Wood Elves virtually unplayable. You can still win, but you need to be hitting your averages on dice rolls consistently, to not put a foot wrong and to have your opponent mis-step- or just get favourable match-ups.

However, a lot can change in 12 months.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Shamgi wrote:
Well, let's focus on the WE for a minute then. Can an army built around glade riders, hawk riders and such units be successful? If it's a hard army to run that doesn't bother me, so long as that chance for success is there.

As I've said, I'm interested in a fast moving style of army that plays keep away with my opponent while harassing him until I get the kind of combat I want, picking and choosing when we actually fight.

If that is what you want to play, you should run dark elves. Dark Elf fast cav is better at shooting and better in melee (thanks to hatred). They also have core flyers who are disposable (harpies) and fast moving monsters to deliver the pain in combat (hydras).

It is really hard to find anything that wood elves can do that dark elves don't do better, for less points.

Dark Riders built with corsair arms and dark elf chests look awesome, and end up costing about the same as stock dark riders.
For harpies, you can use daemonette bodies and legs and tyranid gargoyle wings (with a bit of trimming).
For dark pegasi, use the bret peg with vargeist wings, I'd still use the wood elf legs, dark elf speaman body and corsair limbs.

Hmmm, might have to go back to the dark elves again...

-Matt

Well, might have to consider that army then. I'm certainly interested in the fluff of an army, but I can always make something work, because it's the tactics on the table I'm most interested in.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Shamgi wrote:
Well, let's focus on the WE for a minute then. Can an army built around glade riders, hawk riders and such units be successful? If it's a hard army to run that doesn't bother me, so long as that chance for success is there.

As I've said, I'm interested in a fast moving style of army that plays keep away with my opponent while harassing him until I get the kind of combat I want, picking and choosing when we actually fight.

If that is what you want to play, you should run dark elves. Dark Elf fast cav is better at shooting and better in melee (thanks to hatred). They also have core flyers who are disposable (harpies) and fast moving monsters to deliver the pain in combat (hydras).

It is really hard to find anything that wood elves can do that dark elves don't do better, for less points.

Dark Riders built with corsair arms and dark elf chests look awesome, and end up costing about the same as stock dark riders.
For harpies, you can use daemonette bodies and legs and tyranid gargoyle wings (with a bit of trimming).
For dark pegasi, use the bret peg with vargeist wings, I'd still use the wood elf legs, dark elf speaman body and corsair limbs.

Hmmm, might have to go back to the dark elves again...

-Matt

When I was picking up an army after VC I was looking at WE and DE. I loved the WE models, loved their fluff, loved the idea of being a good guy for once in WHF. I read the army book and it looked great, but the DE book had just come out, so I looked at that. Double the firepower for less cost? Cheaper, heavier hitting fast cav? Powerful, reliable magic phase? Solid blocks of infantry to engage the enemy and were fast enough to do so on my terms? Monsters both cheaper and harder hitting? With the exception of some models, there was nothing about the WE that were better than DE, especially given that DE played the WE game BETTER than WE did. So I bought a DE army and played them like WE. While everyone else complained about Dirtlords, Dual Hydras, and maxed out wizards with daggers in sacrificial warrior bunkers, my meta complained about fast cav, the movement phase, and unstoppable Blackguard formations. And of course, since I loved assassins but couldn't always find the points for them, it was always nail biting time for my opponants any time they charged and had to play the Assassin Shellgame...

+1 for the dark elves.

They also have shades too. Which I find to be up there with the best skirmishers (if not the best).

Dark riders are great fun to use either as medium-light cavalry, or as fast cavalry.

I also think they magic is much more suited to the hit and run style of army with metal helping shooting armies quite a bit.

VC can be a fun army. I love the themes and customization you get with that army. I also love the unbreakable state of most units. That being said Orcs n Goblins should be looked at. Animosity brings a level of randomness to the army (and shenanigans) they are a horde army with lots of options, customization, and hard hitting units.

Ok, so looking at Dark Elves, and had a random question.

Dark Riders are Fast cav without shields. Question is, are heroes/lords on horses also fast cav, provided they meet the same requirements(no shields)?