Switch Theme:

Ratling guns and/or warpfire throwers?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

So lately at some times i find my warpfire throwers aren't doing what i want them to. When the enemy comes at you or when you hold your warpfire throwers in the back behind your units they're ok if the enemy overruns a unit and gets shot in its flank by a warpfire thrower. In fact the good strength and flaming attacks as well as D3 wounds per guy hit is very, very nice. However there is a problem. Sometimes these weapons teams get sniped and it's very, very easy in some cases. Also warpfire throwers lack a lot of range. If i'm facing an enemy army with a good deal of ranged firepower i have to come at them. Now considering the doom flayer is horrible and probably insanely hard to use well (you pretty much have to flank with them and get your enemy to fight them when you want which is usually not easy) i think i'll use ratling guns instead. Poisoned wind mortars are alright but will often overshoot and aren't always the best. I love warpfire throwers but i'm very much considering that i take at least a couple or more ratling guns as well so that i can shoot my enemy from range and force them into attacking me rather than having to approach an unsafe range to get close enough to fire warpfire thrower shots and then endanger the entire team by doing so. So yeah though warpfire throwers are awesome i think i'll need some longer range firepower that puts out quite a few shots that'll force some enemies forward esp. if i disable more of their shooting or magic and who knows maybe sheer volume of shots could even scare a slann if it's all on its own like a friend once did (he doesn't have temple guard and he had the +2 ward save vs magical attacks plus ethereal or something).

So yeah i suppose i'll take both warpfire throwers and ratling guns now that i think about it. What are your opinions on the matter? I just think ratling guns would give me volume of firepower at decent range and may force the enemy to come at me if they can't compete or to use magic to get rid of them. Once again it's still a fairly expensive point sink for a profile close to that of a clanrat with heavy armor even if i get a +4 ward save from the weapon team's parent unit. A decent amount of shots would just kill it. Now that i think about it 5 model units of jezzails would actually destroy weapons teams and similar. I may have to try this when i get the jezzails. Alternatively i could just use the cloud of corruption spell with a skitterleap'd character though that'd probably be a grey seer (since a plague priest is stuck to a furnace when i take him) and that'd probably seriously endanger said character which would cost too much in points lost for what i'd do.

Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Couple thoughts:

1. Weapon teams in general are very squishy. 5+/4++ is okay, but W1 means it doesn't take much to remove a 55 point (or more) model. The PWM alleviates this somewhat by being able to shoot while hiding behind its parent unit, but it's still W1.

2. Ratling Gun has 24" range, so it's not too much longer than most shooting and has less range than things like bows and crossbows. You're also looking at BS3, so even by the time you roll up your shots, you're losing half of them to misses.

3. Weapon teams have a hidden cost: the parent unit. You can't field a huge number of weapon teams without paying a 70-80 point premium for the unit that goes with it. PWM has the cheapest premium at 50 for the first one if you take Poisoned Wind Globadiers, but not every PWG unit can take a Mortar.

4. Jezzails. I want to love Jezzails, I really do. I usually field a smallish unit of them in any list I field. Not because they're effecitve; they're not. 20 points for a BS3 model with W1? Ouch. But for some reason people see that S6-AP profile on the gun and head straight for them. Suckers.


Overall, skaven shooting is not really great. Poison Gutter Runner slings are great for taking out war machines, maybe a monster, but they're nothing like an actual shooting block of night goblins or high elf sea guard. Where are shooting mostly shines is the Warp Lightning Cannon (which I expect will be nerfed come our next book). Against an army with little or no actual shooting (see: Beastmen, Brettonia or Warriors of Chaos) Weapon Teams might have a place, but for the most part their relatively high cost and fragile stat line makes them just secondary to other options in the skaven army.


None of which has stopped me from playing an army with 6 weapon teams and a big block of 15 Jezzails.
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Personally i think it depends on the range of the enemy shooting and such as well as how many individual teams you have. That said some magic could be problematic for the little weapon teams. At first i didn't think much of ratling guns and the BS 3 but they can fire multiple shots and fire at long range without penalty from shooting modifiers representing the insane amount of shots they can fire. Sure it probably isn't fantastic but a few sound like it could force the enemy to have to deal with them and that benefits me. I could be wrong but i think ratling guns have 18" range whereas poisoned wind mortars have 6"-24" and can blind fire as well as use their parent unit's LOS for purposes of shooting.

Jezzails sound like fun but i heard they can run very, very easily. Somebody once mentioned throwing down 'fozzrik's folding fortress' (basically a 100 pts one use item that turns into a building) and then putting them inside of it thus giving them 360 degree line of sight, sight above everything, hard cover and in the case of morale checks a way to keep them from running away since supposedly with building rules they just hide in the building more i think considering it's safer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/22 13:39:02


Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

The problem with Jezzails is many. They run to easy, they won't rally when they do. They take up too much space on the table. The models are low to the ground making it too easy for opponents to gain cover.
Adding a 100 point magic item, and keeping them the general and BSB helps with those problems, but still leaves them vulnerable to magic missiles.
The worst issue with them, is that you just don't get enough bang for your buck. At 20 points a shot, you aren't doing enough damage to really matter.

Ratling guns are decent enough. I've found that most people who hate them now loved them last edition when they were stupidly good. Now that they are average, their is a lot of loathing for them.

Warp fire throwers do the most damage, but also have the most risky misfire.
After that, the mortars seems pretty solid.
Where ratling guns shine is vs smaller elite units. When the enemy doesn't have a deep footprint, the mortar can't score lots of hits. That's the target for the ratling guns.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

I did the math somewhat and i find this a bit unappealing at times. So is an average shot number about 9 shots? Of that it only hits about half the time. Then you have to roll to wound and pray they are elite toughness 3 dudes like elves rather than say lizardmen. This is also hoping that there aren't negative modifiers to shooting other than the couple that don't effect ratling guns.

I think i'll just use more skitterleap'd warlocks with like brass orb, death globe and doom rocket. If a brass orb is initiative test or die all i have to do is skitterleap a warlock near a slann. At that point all i have to do is hit and once i do the initiative test should usually go in my favor. If not well then maybe a good cracks call will do something for me.

Just as an example for how nasty a warlock with a doom rocket that gets skitterleap'd into an enemy army's flank can be is that i basically hit like 19 saurus warriors and wounded 16 of them. My friend rolled his saves away from my vision so i have to wonder if it was accurate but somehow he managed to save half of those with his remaining +6 save after the strength 5 took away most of his armor save. Normally that's a good chunk of his army gone and for the cost of one skitterleap, a 15 pts warlock and a 30 pts wargear item it was totally, totally worth it. More so if he didn't make the ridiculous saves outside of my vision *rolls eyes*. I've only done this a few times before with the doom rocket/skitterleap combo but so far i've seen incredibly good results with it by doing what i have been doing with it.

I think i'd skip out on the idea of ratling guns mostly because i see better weapons teams lying around mostly in the form of the warpfire thrower though a small amount of poisoned wind mortars also sound good.

On the topic of the poisoned wind mortar i was actually pretty surprised that poisoned wind globadiers might actually not be so bad. I mean i don't like the unit at all but the base unit is not what i was interested in or thinking deviously about. I'm into the fact that each poisoned wind globadier squad can have a champion with a death globe (small blast that wounds everything under it on a +4 with no armor saves allowed). With small units of poisoned wind globadiers you can actually have quite a few of these death globes around. If that wasn't enough you can also give the unit a poisoned wind mortar team for half of the poisoned wind globadiers that you have. Then your poisoned wind globadiers can shoot into combat that both you and your opponent are a part of. The problem with all this though is that these units will basically run away at the slightest amount of missile fire but with such small units they'd be forced to target each of the globadier units separately. The other problem is the extreme short range of the death globes. All that said when it hits and if it does it'll hit like a brick to the face i'm sure for most rank-and-file units and most likely i can fire said death globes into a unit stuck in melee with one of my own units considering the poisoned wind globadier's special rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 05:25:37


Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Doesnt the Death Globe being a magic weapon prevent multiples from being in one army? PWG champs arent special characters and Death Globes are not called out as allowing dupes.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

streamdragon wrote:Doesnt the Death Globe being a magic weapon prevent multiples from being in one army? PWG champs arent special characters and Death Globes are not called out as allowing dupes.
Checked the FAQ and I agree, looks like 0-1 death globe per army. The W-AW option for engineers includes an errata under the magic item description allowing multiples, while the DG does not.
flamingkillamajig wrote:I think i'll just use more skitterleap'd warlocks with like brass orb, death globe and doom rocket. If a brass orb is initiative test or die all i have to do is skitterleap a warlock near a slann. At that point all i have to do is hit and once i do the initiative test should usually go in my favor. If not well then maybe a good cracks call will do something for me.
You're making sure to skitterleap that warlock 1" away from it's target, right? That way if he misfires it'll still tag the orb target
Just as an example for how nasty a warlock with a doom rocket that gets skitterleap'd into an enemy army's flank can be ... I've only done this a few times before with the doom rocket/skitterleap combo but so far i've seen incredibly good results with it by doing what i have been doing with it.
I've only run the doomrocket twice, and both times I crippled entire units of things - warriors in one instance, white lions in the other (so both had it coming ). Thing is, it was so utterly ridiculous for 30 points that I swore never to use it again - I make it my goal to leave as little of a bad taste in the other player's mouth as possible, and Skaven can taste pretty terrible! In all honesty I look forward to the rocket leaving with next edition.
I think i'd skip out on the idea of ratling guns mostly because i see better weapons teams lying around mostly in the form of the warpfire thrower though a small amount of poisoned wind mortars also sound good.
Long ago I retired my warpfire thrower. I ran it perhaps five times, out of which it hit a target twice (one of which was a perfect howdah splash on an Engine of the Gods, burning out all the riders (this was 7th edition) and wounding the beast), misfired horrifically twice (one of which panicked away the center of my army, effectively losing me the game), and was shot in the other. If it could move and fire we might have something - as it is, it's too unreliable, too short ranged, too easily killed and too expensive for me (and that's saying something in an army that is more or less unreliable!)

As for ratlings, there was a time I ran three of them, and with pretty decent results. My best shot was a spinning misfire which pointed back at its target - a Jabberslythe! - and dropped it in one insane burst. But generally they would be used to strip ranks from incoming choppy things - warriors especially, though swordmasters / lions / dark elf nasties if they could survive the shooting - so my rats could pretend to deal with them a little easier. 55 points isn't bad and 24" is nice (used to be 18"), and as a guy who remembers how broken they were I was ok dealing with rolling 4+ to hit. They also have one of the 'better' misfire charts, as it doesn't often involve the instantaneous death of the weapon team (though I have had crews take each other out with spinning misfire shenanigans ...)

But then I gave in and started taking mortars.
On the topic of the poisoned wind mortar ...
For the past two years I've been running triple mortars and loving it. Mobile, decently costed and capable of crippling damage against both massed infantry and cavalry - and there are a lot of cavbuses out there nowadays - as well as capable of dinging away at single targets with some good hits / scatters (like stanks) and even lucky snipes against characters (failed LOS! saves or RNF depletion), I rarely find my mortars lack for something to shoot every turn that they're still alive. Actually the worst thing to happen to mortars in the last year are all these monstrous cav units, but I suppose they can focus on their friends instead (except not very well when those friends are on 40mm bases ). Where mortars fall short are the same negatives that all weapon teams have: easily singled out and killed, poor LD (particularly when rallying), instantly yield up VP, etc. But I find their solo nature to have its own advantages, such as having three relatively cheap redirectors that can sprint out in front of the main line and delay, sometimes accompanied by a shot down field if the enemy is particularly close! Of course I also have games where all my mortars are dropped by enemy shooting / magic before firing, or all three misfire and detonate horrifically in the first round

Has nobody mentioned doom flayers? They deserve that at least, though I find that despite a good price and solid armor, I rarely want a handful more S4 close combat hits ... but then I run all stormvermin and am eternally frustrated that we have no way to increase strength

- Salvage

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/26 22:06:10


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

 streamdragon wrote:
Doesnt the Death Globe being a magic weapon prevent multiples from being in one army? PWG champs arent special characters and Death Globes are not called out as allowing dupes.


Look over into your army lists where it lists the options your units can take. A poisoned wind globadier champion can take a death globe just like a gutter runner champion can be given smoke bombs. Since these aren't characters you can get away with multiples of those upgrades as long as it says so. On the other hand poisoned wind mortars are only allowed for half of the poisoned wind globadier units rounded up. Look carefully at what the army lists say next time. I'm pretty sure poisoned wind globadier champions can take multiple death globes.

@boss salvage: Honestly if i skitterleap'd a warlock with an orb or globe i'd skitterleap the warlock in between a couple units if at all possible if they had a fairly close distance to each other (a good few inches between both units). That said if i teleported one with a brass orb i'd probably put him in between a bunch of war machines or weapons teams or possibly some monsters or some such but very near it so if i misfired it'd still hit said monster or war machine.

So far i've been impressed with the doom rocket. Sure it's really good as are things like the fellblade or the storm banner (provided you face any shooting or flying units in your opponent's list) and yeah it's probably too good for its points but not everybody skitterleaps a warlock to the side of an army's flank to use it so usually the attack is so random for most people that it'll often overshoot or undershoot where they want it to hit so that's points that get wasted. One dude mentioned the few times he saw it used that it failed each and every time and he just laughed or similar (dude was an terrible GW employee and human being in my eyes but whatever).

Actually when warpfire throwers do what they're supposed to do and hit they kill a lot. That said they're not as potent as when a warp lightning cannon and when it hits. Once again though one is short ranged, with a good strength, flaming attacks, D3 multiple wounds and the other is artillery die strength (so it can be good or bad), goes through armor, has a long range, is very random for hitting units of rank-and-file as opposed to monsters or war machines, does D6 wounds and is good against anything short of high toughness monsters with a significant amount of wounds. Honestly when it comes to killing a mass of monstrous infantry that isn't a bunch of trolls or crypt horrors i prefer the warp lightning cannon if both can't hit (otherwise i'd use the warpfire thrower first to get rid of regeneration for the rest of the shooting phase and then nuke them with a warp lightning cannon provided that even works). That said the warp lightning cannon is once again very random against anything but monsters and war machines.

I'm actually thinking about not taking ratling guns now. Not enough killy firepower. Not enough bang or utter mowing through hordes with bullets type firepower for my tastes. I figure if you roll out like 9 shots and the only hit with half and then only wound with like 2/3 or a half that you're generally not getting much. I dunno maybe i should think about rolling 3 dice but the risk would be so high to roll a double i think. I suppose against toughness 3 light armored dudes like elves we'd at least see 4 kills and it'd be shooting at these units a couple turns before said units hit melee. Are you sure it's 24"? I thought it was 18" currently.

Mortars are decent vs cavalry and warriors of chaos type units. I don't think they'd kill anything else fast enough. Honestly i think it might be true that warpfire throwers are the best weapons teams. I've used all but the ratling guns though so think about that for a bit.

Doom flayers are a pain in my *ss to use. They need to flank an opponent and possibly in doubles and even then one of the 2 may still die. They are way too weak and only have one wound. They pretty much die to everything from skinks to combat units to enemies striking first in melee or maybe they don't do enough damage against opponents that have low initiative because most of those units have toughness 4 at least (except undead maybe). They have to face an opponent in the flank as they die far too easily otherwise. Believe me when i say i want to be wrong. Maybe one day i'll figure out doom flayers can be the bestest unit ever but not in 8th esp. considering charges don't allow you to hit first anymore, more ranks can attack and steadfast would totally ruin this sort of thing provided you managed to last the whole combat phase which is unlikely. I tried coming up with a workable tactic for doom flayers but i don't play enough to try it and my results with them have always been terrible. They could never ever hope to be as good as a plague furnace which does pretty much the same thing but makes its unit unbreakable, has a solid unit to go into battle with and by itself can last quite a few nasty punches though nothing too terrible. Admittedly plague furnaces need the plague priest and cost like 250 to take with a level 1 plague priest but they are pretty decent for what they do and combined with plague monks and the plague banner they aren't half bad. I'm not entirely sure about the plague furnace. It's good but you need a unit of 40 plague monks pushing it. I used to love the thing until i saw the hellpit in action. Now i have the furnace, the hellpit and 2 warp lightning cannons. I could use the doomwheel some more but i should probably retire it for the time being. It was a good monster killer but generally a hellpit can do almost everything it can except better for an extra 100 pts.

If you want stormvermin to be better then take queek's upgraded bodyguard stormvermin. The cost an extra 4 points but they have +1 WS and +1 strength. This means they have WS 5 and once the halberds are factored into it they have strength 5 attacks. It's potent but costly and i'd advice you to use it only in larger games as i am oddly enough using a fairly elite skaven army right now and that doesn't seem to work too well. That said winning in melee does have its advantages but then the furnace or hellpit abomination could do that too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/26 23:25:23


Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
 
Forum Index » The Old World & Legacy Warhammer Fantasy Discussion
Go to: