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This isn't a bash GW thread, but rather a thread to see how people think that GW (40k in particular) would be best run. That means releases, time between releases, expansions, models, pricing, etc. etc.

In other words, if you yourself were in charge of GW, how would you handle these things to most effectively grow and satisfy the hobby and it's base?

Every day I read dozens of posts complainging about dumb things that GW does (sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't), so I am wondering what kind of alternative business models people have thought up?

I'd personally like to see GW go back to when it was during the mid nineties when it was more about gaming and the hobby. There were loads of good games too. Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Bloodbowl, BFG and Epic 40k as well as the big two.

I agree with Puscifier on his points, and add I would have kept GW forums on the official site, and actually use it for preveiws, input and rules queries, so as to keep a finger on the games fanbase, there is no excuse for a company in this immediate info age to not talk to its consumer base.
Also a nice concise table of releases would be a welcome way to plan future expenditures and to guage relative interest from the responses, teasers are nice.

I too miss the days of the BFG and Gorkamorka games, was alot of fun.

I would allow a community playtest of a new codex pre-release (possible a small group/ possibly a free pdf of test rules for people to try out and comment on), to see where it would fit in the current meta and what broken -ass combos TFG's could dream up.

Then rewrite as necessary, to maintain parity between codexes.

Also, advertise new releases in advance, and drop the prices a bit. They are a bit exorbitant at present, and it's costing them business, no matter how pretty the model is.

Also, Xeno terrain please! Satisfying though it is that every battle is held on a ruined Imperial world, it would be nice to have other options..

Finally - hire a decent team of proofreaders to sit down with the codex and check it over. Include a rules lawyer, a TFG WAAChole and a contract lawyer in the group to check for exploits, loopholes and unclear writing. Provide them with copies of all other codexes to check for broken power-combos or the ability to feth-you/winbutton another army.

I get the feeling that all playtesting is done with Marines as the sparring bot, but what isn't overly brutal for it's points against other marines can be a real OP ability against, say, Ork Boyz or Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, cut down on the skulls fixation... It's gone from gothic grimdark to parody already.. and it's fast approaching ludicrous...

Customer interaction. Bring the company down to the consumers level. All we see when we think GW is a bunch of anonymous donkey-caves hiding in a boardroom raping our wallets. Get the writers and designers out there, so they feel like one of the guys. Hell, get Mat Ward out there to chill. It puts a face on the company. More content on the website. More advertisement. Merchandise. Previews.

Listen to fans. Codecies need updates in proper order. You can sit on an edition for years as long as everybody is equal. The fanbase WILL buy update books if you give us new stuff.

Perfect scenario:

All armies brought up to 6th edition. SSS

Sit on it for a few years. We buy our initial new codex units. We fill out our army with other units. We start new armies. $$$

Every year or so, add a campaign book. Add new units for everybody at once, with a book it MAKES SENSE TO BUY. SSS



Im no business major, but to me it sounds foolproof. I want more than anything than to see this company to succeed and see the fanbase happy. And theyre nowhere near either of these goals.

I'm going to try and avoid the "lower prices, rarararar" part of the discussion because everyone knows the prices are too high and this'll be said to death. So here are two things that aren't *too* unlikely to happen and would really make a difference.

- Be Nice

Seriously, I think GW really alienates itself from its playerbase. They don't listen to feedback, don't advertise, don't specifically answer rules queries and stuff like that. It's honestly not too much to ask for any company and I hope that anyone who takes over GW at any point in the future will realise this.

- Reward Cards

Ok, so this is the thing that I can actually see GW using, mostly because it will benefit them, as well as us. A decent Reward Card, and I mean decent, not like with Game where buying a £300 console nets you £4 off your next purchase, something like 5% (being realistic here) back. So if you bought a box of spearmen for £20, you'd get enough points to take a quid off your next purchase. Alternatively you could say, "spend over £X pounds and get Y Points", and so on, which would also help GW since they'd more easily be able to push the sales of stuff like paint and glue to tip you over that boundary for earning points. So, like I said, it'd benefit us since we'd get money of GW products and, being the 'switched-on' portion of GW's consumers, we wouldn't be fooled by their tricksy tricks to get more money off us.

But onto the reason why I think this isn't unlikely: it benefits GW too. Like I said before, certain systems will allow them to push the sales of paints and stuff more easily. They'd also be able to offer "double reward points on pre-orders" which would increase the amount of impulse buys which, to be honest, GW gets a lot of their profits from. They'd also be able to give double points or an extra X points for buying things like starter sets, beginner paint sets and things like that, which will get people into the hobby easier, which again, is something that GW really like to push.

Simple answer: look at how WOTC runs MTG. Do all of that with 40k.

God no.

Some of it yes. They can run a business better than GW, and they are a hell of a lot better at closing loopholes.

I'd rather not have all my units replaced every few years with something new though, and the previous ones be unusable

I played MTG for years, and still do, but precious few of my cards are 'legal' for play any more Thankfully, my opponents also have collections that go back years and like to use the older cards too

My opinion:
Divide the company into departments, each responsible for a product line. Each line (40K, fantasy, LOTR, other) has a VP who also sits on their board of directors, along with a CEO and a couple accountants. So you're talking about maybe 7-8 people on the board, at the top level. The vote and make company wide decisions (new hobby stores, etc). This division helps to focus each game on itself, rather than worry about the combined company affecting each line individually, and allows better development of each game as a unique entity.

The next level down is your specific department, we'll use 40K for the purpose of this discussion. The 40K VP has essentially total control of the 40K line. He/she is an experienced 40K gamer, and has full authority to hire authors, modelers, and play-testers, and has final authorization of model production. The 40K line is his/her responsibility, and the goal is betterment of the game/outreach/sales. If I were said VP, I would then hire an author per codex to create a large pool of subject matter experts who then reference fluff and each other to write the rulebooks and codices. This creates consistency and focus.

The production arm of the company would simply take requests from each department and produce them.

This is the way any large corporation works; for example Pepsi Co owns Frito Lay and Pepsi. There's not some corporate crossover where the "writers" (product managers) of soft drinks go and make chips for awhile, they keep them focused and separate. Once you reach a size as a company that you go global, you must do this. Separation of product lines for better focus and quality.


Finally, there is a resounding principle in American business anyway (I say this not to insult anyone, but to identify the source) that THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT. Games Workshop needs to take this to heart. The fact of the matter is that if you give a customer what they want, be it lower prices, a better product, or better support, they'll keep coming back and they'll tell their friends...and you will grow. Walmart, the world's largest retailer, operates by the principle of having the lowest prices and 100% customer satisfaction (aka you can return anything for any reason). It started as small general store in Arkansas 50 years ago. Since I mentioned the company, I'll share two of the founder's principles:

8. Exceed your customers' expectations. Give them what they want-then give 'em a little more.
9. Control your expenses better than your competitors. You can survive a lot of mistakes if you're efficient.

If Games Workshop made a significant effort to make it's game really, really good then it would do much better as a company, in my opinion. They wouldn't need to introduce an expansion to get the thousands of space marine players to buy an $80 flyer, because the hundreds of thousands of space marine players would be already buying up cheap rhinos and tactical squads. A better game attracts more players. More players mean more purchases. I would also say that their expansion of hobby centers is probably doing a lot to drive up their prices, and it is a huge expense on any company to create and staff more brick and mortar locations. In GW's case, it's mostly unnecessary as they can function just fine as a supplier to hobby stores and online.

Sorry if any of you have anti-corporation feelings, I just brought them up to show how other well-known global companies do business.

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

That's what I want GW to do. Let me 'splain:

Stop making me spend money, in order to spend money. If I would like to buy your toys to play a game, then make it EASY to get the rules to do so.

Look at Paizo and Pathfinder. Pathfinder's rule books are not cheap (about $50 each). However, every CORE rulebook (the ones you 'need' to play the game), are available for $10 as a PDF. Not an iPad edition, or some DRM'ed monstrosity, but a PDF watermarked with your name and email address. You can download an updated PDF when they update the rules. Not a separate faq, another new copy of the PDF with the changes right there in the document. If you want that rulebook, you can buy it, but you don't need to buy it. You can buy the cheap PDF and play the game. GW's rules should be easy and inexpensive to get, so that you can go buy their models!

Then, on top of that, Paizo has the PRD. This is an online compendium of all of the core rules (no fluff, no artwork, no background stuff). Just the rules. It's available for FREE. You just need to connect to the internet! Thus, during a game, nobody needs to whip out a book, unless they want to do so. You can look up ALL of the latest rules (your book, or your opponent) for free online.

Yet, despite GIVING AWAY their rule set, Paizo still rakes in money hand over fist. How?

They make stuff that you want to buy. They make pretty rulebooks with pretty pictures that you want to look at. They make tons of optional rules which you can ONLY use if you buy the book or pdf (and you have to have those at any official event). They make tons of other stuff you want. Got the rules? Want an adventure? How about item cards for the stuff you find on that adventure? How about cards with the pictures of everybody you meet on the adventure? How about maps of the locations in the adventure? How about pawns representing all of the opponents in the adventure? What about minis of the people in the adventure?


Games Workshop makes it hard to give them money. Want to use the Ork Bomma? Have to buy this book! No, not the Ork book, some other book. Want to start this army? Well, the psychic power cards are out of print for that one. Want to have a Warhammer Flag? Well, those are only available at our stores at certain times. Want this cool model? Well, you have to go to Games Day to buy it. Let us buy the cool stuff you make! Stop putting your business model between your customers and your product. I'm a huge GW fanboy, and I end up giving more money to dudes on eBay than GW, because GW won't just let me BUY stuff they make.


Also, on a related note: GW has some really cool, creative artists and designers. Stop telling them what to do! I don't care if you think every army should have a box of monstrous cavalry and a new big monster with two builds. I DON'T CARE. If your sculptors and your artists have some cool idea, make it and sell it. Stop trying to shoehorn every creative impulse into some dumb marketing flowchart.

For example, the beautiful High Elf Griffon, and the barn sized Empire Griffin. While the sculptor did a heroic job creating beautiful detail, the fact remains that High Elves have an elegant, sensible Griffin, and the Empire has a fat, steroidal one, because it had to be the big monster for the Empire release.

This company exists because people love the dark, gothic, weird vibe that creative people have been pouring out for decades. Stop strangling it. Nobody is loyal to GW because every new army gets a big monster or a flier. Nobody fondly recalls how each army has monstrous cavalry.

 Peregrine wrote:
Simple answer: look at how WOTC runs MTG. Do all of that with 40k.

No, not this. I don't want my codexes and minis going in and out of print and usability every year. Get a grip.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
No, not this. I don't want my codexes and minis going in and out of print and usability every year. Get a grip.

I was talking about the stuff like maintaining a completely loophole and ambiguity free rulebook, regular marketing/previews/etc, organized events, attempting to appeal to the entire audience rather than writing off entire player groups as "not how it's meant to be played", etc. Obviously 40k and MTG are different games and the game mechanics (like block rotation) shouldn't overlap, but I thought that would be obvious.

PS: cards in MTG don't go in and out of usability in general, just in and out of usability in certain tournament formats. Complaining that your cards are no longer legal makes about as much sense as complaining that 1750 point lists are no longer legal because the local tournament this weekend is at 1500 points.

If GW tried to make a game that was better able to handle competitive play, something like WM/H, do you think they could do a good enough job to compete with games like WM/H?

id expand on the xenos races a lot more and add more in even. dont need 7 more versions of space marine. id have a merc codex put into works for xenos races /freebooters, human pirates, kroot id split the ork codex into the different clans and expand upon them like the space marines have as well and diffident tau and eldar planets / craft worlds and id probably push the universe into the next stage of the future aka death of the emperor and how the galaxy adjusts or starts falling apart at the seems. id put conversion packs out for heavy weapons teams and such so if you can get the basic body from a pack of basic troops you could get a 5-10 $ pack to convert some heavy weapons. id keep there dates the same spreading out the codex's as they are now .

Let the customers have more control of the setting. Host more events like the Medussa campaign well the consumers get to decide the fate of worlds or entire sectors

I"d like to see GW make great looking and high quality miniatures as well as providing me with rules and background that give me hours of entertainment at an affordable price.

Oh wait.......

 Barksdale wrote:
I"d like to see GW make great looking and high quality miniatures as well as providing me with rules and background that give me hours of entertainment at an affordable price.

Oh wait.......

thank you...

Open development, just like CCP games do for eve online. Player involved beta testing for all new ideas, community forums with dev's actively posting (none of what is said on the forums binding) and encouragement of player organized events by the company.

 Galdos wrote:
Let the customers have more control of the setting. Host more events like the Medussa campaign well the consumers get to decide the fate of worlds or entire sectors

This would be great, with one caveat - don't fudge the results if they come out other than you expect.

GW has done this several times, and it was fething annoying...

Have honest campaigns, where if the bad guys win, the fluff in the next round of codexes reflects this, and likewise for the good guys.

If someone is vitally important to the fluff, don't put them in a position where they can be killed. If you do put them there, and they die, let them die.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Barksdale wrote:
I"d like to see GW make great looking and high quality miniatures as well as providing me with rules and background that give me hours of entertainment at an affordable price.

Oh wait.......

Mostly this. The 'affordable' tag is getting a little shredded, but as a whole i'm grateful to GW for 25 + years of gaming goodness.

If they release a codex or army book every month like they are now, i'll be perfectly happy with GW.

Well, i'll be perfectly happy with GW if they do that and write their rules clearly. And release FAQs in a more timely fashion.

If they brought out every codex new in a new edition and have the editions more spread out, that would bring all the armies to a similar level, and could help with later edition codex writing. Also pretty much everything else in this thread. I wonder if there is any staff on dakka? Or should I say, any people in the upper echelons of gw on dakka?

Marketing would help, moving PR into the 21st century would be good. Making prices more competitive, especially when mixed with community building, the long sell of the life style as opposed to the little timmy short term sell.

I think a lot of good stuff has been said here and I'm too lazy to repeat all of it, so here is some more stuff that comes to mind.

- The units you buy should have all the equipment that they can actually use in the box. If it's too much to fit into the box, then sell it clearly visible and not too expensive on the GW site.
Not only is it rather infuriating to buy units and realize that you can't actually make the unit it is supposed to be, honestly, seeing that I would have to dish out so much more cash or make so many conversions just to get the unit I wanted has often stopped me from actually starting a new army. The bits clearly exist since other models have them and adding half a dozen tiny special or heavy weapons to a box can't be that great of a financial loss. I think it would also justify higher prices if the customer knows that in the very least, the unit he bought came with every available option. GW has been getting a little better at this though.

- Furthermore, and I think this has already been said, getting all the armies up to the current edition, and then maybe adding one, before changing rulebook editions would be great. The constant rule changes and additions to certain armies while others are left in the dark really adds somewhat of an uncertainty to the game that has me reluctant to heavily invest in certain armies, knowing that they won't be able to operate as they do now before everything changes again and/or needs to be replaced.

- As has been said here before, more player participation and events would be nice.
Just my 2 cents.

- Sell all kind of bits. There are other companies doing that, so it must be profitable.

- Updated pdf would be very nice, or even a folder that you can replace the pages, with a QR code you can even check online if it's legit.
It's ridiculous that you have to have a book and a reader / print of the updates.

Lower prices, increasing units sold and customer satisfaction, and bringing more people to the hobby. Currently the prices ARE an entry barrier.

Make actual bundle discount deals beyond Battleforces.

Update rules to be less full of loopholes, inconsistencies and unclear things. More cooperation with playtesters to find all these problems.

In the future update all codices simultaneously at the same time as a new edition is launched. Screw shareholders and their requests for "steady income".

Codices written more cooperatively and intermixed, also in cooperation with the playtesters to try and ensure balance.

Kick Matt Ward in the nuts and have him ravaged by cosplay-Draigos day in, day out.

Just to name a few.

I'm easy, Skullz.

I'd like GW to be run as a stable, slow-growth company that sticks to providing its core service well while making reasonably profit margins, and investing in safe bets over long term.

Game-development-wise, given the fact that they're dealing with real goods, rather than virtual content, I'd probably play things kind of cautious. Rather than coming up with a constant stream of content every week and relying on micro-transactions, I'd probably go for a system where content didn't change all that much, and the content that did change would be largely adding, rather than doing TOO much to mess with old stuff (and make people angry they can't use their old content anymore). Make the releases big, and of high-quality, even if they don't come out all that fast.

On a similar note, the rules for the game should remain more or less the same over time, just tweaking things here and there to try and make the game a more enjoyable experience without making too many waves. That and throw a little bit more content in. Most importantly, I'd do my best to ignore how my fan base thinks that the rules should be changed. Most fans are idiots who know nothing about good game design.

Because we're talking about a high-margin good, I'd keep the brand quality high. Printed materials would be in hard cover books, with glossy, full-colored pages. I'd keep the production of my product in a developed country, because even if I have to pay more for the manufacturing, I'd be able to have much better quality control than by having things made via Chinese knock-offs. Also, I think I would begrudgingly keep my own disribution system so that third party people don't water down the brand. Also, I'd be EXTREMELY careful about leveraging. If the brands are going to go on other things, they'd have to be very good, like, say, a very high quality 40k video game, or something. Gotta keep a tight reign on that, though.

Also, because GW is a manufacturing company, and manufacturing is capital intensive, I'd make sure to be a little bit nice to shareholders in case I suddenly need to make some big purchase. Whether it's redoing all of my metal products in plastic, or whether I might invest in 3-d printers soon, I might very well need a lot of cash. To this end, I'd do some shareholder-friendly things like issue a dividend and make sure that the company stayed profitable over the long term, even if I need to keep the prices of a high-margin good to be a little higher.

How would I like to see GW operate? Pretty much the exact way it's operating now, I suppose.

I might consider at least a one-off releasing all codices at the same time, though.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Simple answer: look at how WOTC runs MTG. Do all of that with 40k.

No, not this. I don't want my codexes and minis going in and out of print and usability every year. Get a grip.

Agreed - the two games have nothing in common and the business is therefore very different.

I would rather they looked at companies like Privateer especially with regards to their army updates and in house magazine.

Da Butcha wrote:
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

That's what I want GW to do. Let me 'splain:

Stop making me spend money, in order to spend money. If I would like to buy your toys to play a game, then make it EASY to get the rules to do so.

Look at Paizo and Pathfinder. Pathfinder's rule books are not cheap (about $50 each). However, every CORE rulebook (the ones you 'need' to play the game), are available for $10 as a PDF. Not an iPad edition, or some DRM'ed monstrosity, but a PDF watermarked with your name and email address. You can download an updated PDF when they update the rules. Not a separate faq, another new copy of the PDF with the changes right there in the document. If you want that rulebook, you can buy it, but you don't need to buy it. You can buy the cheap PDF and play the game. GW's rules should be easy and inexpensive to get, so that you can go buy their models!

Then, on top of that, Paizo has the PRD. This is an online compendium of all of the core rules (no fluff, no artwork, no background stuff). Just the rules. It's available for FREE. You just need to connect to the internet! Thus, during a game, nobody needs to whip out a book, unless they want to do so. You can look up ALL of the latest rules (your book, or your opponent) for free online.

Yet, despite GIVING AWAY their rule set, Paizo still rakes in money hand over fist. How?

They make stuff that you want to buy. They make pretty rulebooks with pretty pictures that you want to look at. They make tons of optional rules which you can ONLY use if you buy the book or pdf (and you have to have those at any official event). They make tons of other stuff you want. Got the rules? Want an adventure? How about item cards for the stuff you find on that adventure? How about cards with the pictures of everybody you meet on the adventure? How about maps of the locations in the adventure? How about pawns representing all of the opponents in the adventure? What about minis of the people in the adventure?


Games Workshop makes it hard to give them money. Want to use the Ork Bomma? Have to buy this book! No, not the Ork book, some other book. Want to start this army? Well, the psychic power cards are out of print for that one. Want to have a Warhammer Flag? Well, those are only available at our stores at certain times. Want this cool model? Well, you have to go to Games Day to buy it. Let us buy the cool stuff you make! Stop putting your business model between your customers and your product. I'm a huge GW fanboy, and I end up giving more money to dudes on eBay than GW, because GW won't just let me BUY stuff they make.


Also, on a related note: GW has some really cool, creative artists and designers. Stop telling them what to do! I don't care if you think every army should have a box of monstrous cavalry and a new big monster with two builds. I DON'T CARE. If your sculptors and your artists have some cool idea, make it and sell it. Stop trying to shoehorn every creative impulse into some dumb marketing flowchart.

For example, the beautiful High Elf Griffon, and the barn sized Empire Griffin. While the sculptor did a heroic job creating beautiful detail, the fact remains that High Elves have an elegant, sensible Griffin, and the Empire has a fat, steroidal one, because it had to be the big monster for the Empire release.

This company exists because people love the dark, gothic, weird vibe that creative people have been pouring out for decades. Stop strangling it. Nobody is loyal to GW because every new army gets a big monster or a flier. Nobody fondly recalls how each army has monstrous cavalry.

This pretty much sums it all up. good job da butcha

 Manchu wrote:
If GW tried to make a game that was better able to handle competitive play, something like WM/H, do you think they could do a good enough job to compete with games like WM/H?

Why would they want to?

If WM/H or Dust are better at the competitive side, let them have the competitive side? No?

I'd rather GW stick to their side of the hobby and leave the competitive to those companies that wanna do competitive.