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I'm going to start with warp quake of course but not everybody has access to it and when they do in my experience they can't cover enough of the board to make me quake.

I run a very competitive list (Fateweaver, mask, scribes, 2 TDPs, 16 flamers, and min squads of horrors) but even in the worst cases i.e. warp quake, covering the board, min maxed squads, fliers, even lists I've written specifically designed to fight this one can't seem to match the sheer damage output. Most players get tabled by turn 3 or 4 so I've stopped running it for the most part but I'm taking it to a tourney and want to know what the worst matchups would be.

Cron air was suggested to be bad for them but it wouldn't be unrealistic to destroy everything they start with on the board turn 1.

Feel free to add anything else on the Demon subject. Any information is information.

Cheers

Game designers bringing back balance would mess up your list.

Otherwise daemons are very powerful at moment, sweep most opponents aside.

Demons tend to have pretty weak scoring elements, so the ideal strat for any given list should exploit that. In terms of their flamers/screemers, both have counters, it's just about getting the counters into position so that they can effectively do their job after the demons drop. Not always easy but I've never been particularly scared of the current Demon craze. I respect as good list design, but not game breaking.

I'd expect to lose eternal warrior and for screamers and flamers to get a point increase, that will solve Deamons mostly in my book.

I came here expecting a "why daemons lose fearless" whine and was positively surprised.

I saw daemons losing only to Cron Air. But they're defo in for a point increase or a nerf to flamer/screamer combo, so that won't last.

And yes, rumours have it, that daemons will only have the 6ed book USR. So no EW and Fearless. They probably might lose their DS, which means they get to slog through the board with the rest of us, opening them up to gunlines.

Since the new codox comes out in a week, much of what daemons are afraid of will change in that time.

For now, the biggest fear I see is Null Zone. Now that it can be put in a storm raven, its particularly nasty.

Copy and past of my 6th ed speculating from what I have read.

Flamers and screamers are "Nerfed" if their stats stay the same, which is very likely except leadership will probably drop.

The loss of eternal warrior is a nerf. It's not catastrophic, but it's not minor.

Fearless turning into deamonic instability is a big cc nerf. It won't hurt screamers that hard because they inflict good combat res, but it should probably hurt flamers really good. The way instability/crumble works in fantasy is deamons/undead use their leadership stat (probably 7 or 8 for deamons)to make leadership tests when cc is lost just like a morale test, and instead of breaking they remove wounds with no saves whatsoever for every point they fail by. No saves=no invo, no FNP, no armor, nothing. Fantasy deamonic instability is 5th ed fearless on amphetamines.

Example based off speculation So if hammernaters charge flamers, flamers inflict 1 unsaved wound, termies inflict 4 unsaved wounds which ID 4 flamers, termies win by 7 combat res. Flamers take instability test at a -7 on leadership 7. They roll and 8 and the unit takes 8 more wounds for a total of 16 between 8 in cc damage and 8 in deamonic instability.

Deamonic instability + the loss of EW should be a healthy nerf to flamers.

Next: Loss of deamonic assault.
I don't think this one's a nerf. All those deamons are going to start on the table turn 1 with no mishaps. Flamers/screamers can deploy behind terrain and jump over on turn 1.

All of that being said I think the white dwarf rules were the final version of flamers and screamers except maybe for a new leadership stat.

Nurgle and shrouded V FNP. In melee FNP is definitely better. When being shot at most of the time shrouded is better. Against shooting single 3+ save is better than a pair of 5+, and a 2+ is way better. Shrouded units in ruins=2+ cover. Shrouded units in cover going to ground=2+ cover. If deamonic instability replaces fearless and doesn't prohibit going to ground plaguebearers are going to be even more difficult to shoot off an objective than they were in 5th ed or pre 6th ed codex 6th ed.

Heralds buffing a unit. Having a herald gives a unit in fantasy a unit wide bonus. That encourages large units to maximize the bonus. Large units of troops is a totally different direction than what most current 40k deamon armies do. Some of them, especially pink horrors can become very vulnerable to deamonic instability in large groups.

Anyhow the rumored changed sound interesting and fun. It sounds like it's going to be a powerful yet balanced 6th ed codex. Hopefully it has multiple competitive builds like the DA codex.

The new books out now.. whats changed?

And Hell Drake? Damn don't even need Daemons, just three of them.

The new book is not out yet, there is just a battle report in white dwarf and some speculation.

I concur on most of what is being said - although I think the Daemonic Assault change is a huge hit to experienced Daemon players. Most of the time you can get units where you want them with Deep Strike - I would much rather drop in a unit of Flamers (or two) turn 1 than deploy them and hope my opponent is stupid enough to be in range of them.

When they come in from reserve it influences how the entire army needs to deploy initially - the army spreads out to avoid a killer Alpha Strike. simultaneously spreading out diffused their firepower so the Daemon army had a perfect opportunity to refuse a flank and drop 1200-1300 points of dead killy units within a small area. It just was not possible for many armies to muster enough firepower to slow them down before they started tearing through the army.

One upside is that it looks like the entire Daemon army can deep strike, so there will be some significant strategic opportunities to really use deep strike. I foresee fast, durable toughness 5+ units being deployed on the field while the shootier elements come in from reserve. Maybe slower assault units will also deep strike - better to arrive Turn 2 and eat one turn of shooting and assault Turn 3 than to walk across the board.

Null zone is really the only other thing that daemons don't like.

They fear the codex.

 Niiai wrote:
They fear the codex.

Definately this. Judging from the WD battle report, the current Daemon flamer/screamer spam build just isn't going to cut it anymore. I personally like the new direction, enough to make me start building a Chaos Daemon army for 40K. Looking forward to painting something other than space marine armour.

Well, for at least one more week, I dont think Daemons are too fond of Tyranids. Yeah, Flamers kill one unit of gants, but then a bunch more assault, and you can only overwatch once. Screamers also hate getting assaulted by gants, and poison/mass fleshborer fire will ground and then swamp any MC.

Volume of fire or high initiative assaulting is the only thing which Daemons really need to fear at this moment.

A field of guardsmen FRFSRF, or a field or termagaunts, lootas with good rolls, etc. It's the only thing I've seen effective halt daemons that isn't Grey Knights.

However, all that will change in a week, to the crying of the flavour-of-the-month players, for which I will shed a single tear. Especially since the only full-time daemon player in my group is fething annoying and insufferable, complete TFG. For the rest of you, best of luck with the new codex, should be interesting.

I heard they are geting psykic power like the rest of us. So, if so, FEAR MY RUNES OF WARDING!

It depends on the Daemon. If it's a daemon of Nurgle it'll fear baths and personal hygene products. If it's Khorne it'll fear anger management therapy. If it's Slaanesh it'll fear public decency laws. And finally if it's Tzeentch it would fear a set in stone itinerary for vacation activities.

I'm pretty sure that with the new codex they are bringing back Daemonic Instability: something 5th ed version of fearless = take a number of wounds equal to the amount they lost by (with Armour saves). Therefore in combat, the best combat against daemons is getting a good assault unit that either beats them or hold them up for a while.

 Brotherjanus wrote:
It depends on the Daemon. If it's a daemon of Nurgle it'll fear baths and personal hygene products. If it's Khorne it'll fear anger management therapy. If it's Slaanesh it'll fear public decency laws. And finally if it's Tzeentch it would fear a set in stone itinerary for vacation activities.

+1 /thread

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
I'm pretty sure that with the new codex they are bringing back Daemonic Instability: something 5th ed version of fearless = take a number of wounds equal to the amount they lost by (with Armour saves). Therefore in combat, the best combat against daemons is getting a good assault unit that either beats them or hold them up for a while.

It could be worse than fearless. Read current crumble/demonic instability in WHFB

I have to agree with Niiai. As a Daemon player, I am not looking forward to the new codex.
Sure, rebalancing Flamers is good. I can handle that. They need to cost more points.

But taking away Eternal Warrior on all my Monstrous Creatures??? That's just mean. GK is good enough right now at killing me. Having a 2000-pt list where basically every single model can snuff my Lord of Change makes me really sad. On the other hand, since I also play GK......

Nope, still not happy about Daemons losing EW. Invuln saves, EW, and Deep Strike are what make Daemons daemons. Remove those and you've completely changed the flavour of the codex. And I like my flavour how it is!

I think a new codex would be good though. :-) One that fits more with 6th edition. Currently there are many builds that only use a couple of units. Diveresety should be the name of the game in 6th edition.

I know they don't like me huddling up in one corner around some conveniently placed terrain so that they can deep strike and mishap. Unfortunately, the campers can't claim objectives either.

I really want to see the new codex give some sort of reason to take setups besides the Flamer/Screamer combo. I want to see someone actually use Bloodletters and a Khorne themed army. Then get a Bloodthirster, name him Boethiah, then get a Chaos Marine army together and call them the Cult of Boethiah.

Demons dont like nids at all. Simply too many units to remove all of them. Nids can bubble wrap very, very well and keep flamers off tervigons with some good placement. Also, the gaunts absorb flamer overwatch meaning units can get into CC with them which is not normally the case. Flying tyrants can ground Fatweaver pretty easily with vector+BLD and gaunts poking at the fatweaver can knock it down with enough tries. Nids are also VERY good at putting a LOT of wounds on models rather than quality of wounds. High T doesnt matter vs flamers, but it does vs everything else.

Daemons, like everything else, probably fear torrents of wounds. Especially with null zone in effect.