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Ceann wrote:
Sorry Roknar I know you asked. I am trying to establish how the rules are read before discussing them. I won't forget about you though.

The best example is assault grenades that do not have a profile when assaulting iirc.

Rules are read by trolls by placing the small blast template on the rulebook and rolling 3 d6 scater. The rule the blast template lands on is the only one that matters and anyone else who reads the book is clearly wrong

When you move to the verbal assault phase tell your opponent they fail basic comprehension because they fail to understand that you don't read the whole rulebook.

Ceann wrote:
Sorry Roknar I know you asked. I am trying to establish how the rules are read before discussing them. I won't forget about you though.

The best example is assault grenades that do not have a profile when assaulting iirc.

We'rent you the one who wanted others to stop discussing rules and only discuss Rad Grenades?

Can't do that if everyone thinks they can decide what is and is not a special rule entirely on their own.


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Do you remember when you read the codex and did exactly what it said? That is what you are supposed to so.

But everyone wants to refer back to the BRB for various reasons ad infinitum.

Ceann wrote:So. The description, breaks or bends a rule, gives you permission to decide on your own, what is an is not a special rule. Is that what you are saying?

No. That definition is telling me what is and is not a special rule. If I am following that definition, is that deciding on my own? If I follow the directions provided by a Wargear, am I deciding what that Wargear does on my own?

At this point, you are projecting. You are deciding what is and is not a basic and special rule outside of the definitions provided.

Ceann wrote:Advanced rules apply to a SPECIFIC model.
If I take a death watch kill team, which includes one guy on a bike, one guy with terminator armor and the rest is vets we now have advanced rules. The SPECIFIC model with those items apply only to that model, THESE are situations that count as advanced rules.
The rules for that model DO not apply to the unit. The bike rider gains the special rule splitfire, because he has a bike. Do you understand what a special rule is now? What an advanced rule is? They apply to specific models, not units.
If I take an entire unit of bikes they ALL have splitfire but it is not an advanced rule because it is not being applied to a specific model.

Advanced rules are not unit types.
Advanced rules are when a special rule is applied to a MODEL.
Otherwise they apply to a UNIT.

And all those rules of unit types still apply to the models that have that unit type. Read up on Bikes, how often is the term "unit" used and how often is the term "model" used?

It doesn't matter if the unit is one model or 30, Bikes always have Relentless and can Turbo-Boost. If a Bike Captain joins a unit of Tactical Marines, it can still move 12". If the unit goes through Difficult Terrain, the Bike Captain can still go 12". If the Bike Captain goes through the Difficult Terrain, he rolls for Dangerous Terrain, even though the rest of the Infantry unit will not.

The basic rules are for Infantry and Infantry alone. If a unit is of another Type, it becomes an Advanced Rule. This is referenced throughout the rulebook, and you've even quoted some of the paragraphs which state as such, so I hope you read them, too.

master of ordinance wrote:Just as a note guys, Rad grenades do not specifically state that they do not stack, and in fact the way the rules are written (as per RAW as it where) the grenades do infact stack, but only when multiple units with a model possessing them charge/are charged
However, if multiple models possessing Rad Grenades are within the same unit and it charges/is charged then only one instance of Rad Grenading occurs.

And as a final note I should also mention that I have always run them as stacking, it is the generally accepted interpretation and finally of all watching a squad of Guardsmen beat a unit of T2/1 Marines to death is too funny not to watch.

The reason all this discussion about special rules is that special rules do not stack unless they specifically state they do. So, the default is that they do not stack and they need to say they stack in order to stack.

Ceann wrote:Everyone has lots of questions because none of you understand this correctly. I am trying to explain it to you. But you are more concerned about waiting to prove me wrong than trying to understand what I am telling you.

No, we understand what you are saying. But, we are also saying that you are wrong and ignoring key definitions and points in the rulebook. We have quoted from the rulebook and you have provided nothing that gainsays those definitions.

Ceann wrote:So the units type has the basic rules for those types of units.

But those are not the basic rules for the GAME. That is the key difference that seems to go over your head on this. It is basic rules for a bike model to have Relentless. Does this make Relentless a basic rule? That is absurd, but that is what you seem to saying the equivalent of in regards to Rad Grenades and Unit Types.

Ceann wrote:If you just look at the unit type section by itself, you will have no idea what those terms mean. The rules are in core rules.

Some are, some aren't. Some change those base rules, such as Cavalry, Bikes, Jump, and Beasts moving 12". Some add additional special rules that are unique to unit types, such as Thrust and Hard To Hit. Some also allow Characters to reallocate Wounds away from them or to move beyond their Charging Range or without a Pile In (see Challenges).

These are not basic rules. These are rules which bend or break the basic game's rules presented in the sections before them. This makes them special rules and this also makes Advanced Rules.

If you feel otherwise, please demonstrate how every single one of those Unit Type exceptions are explained between the pages which The Turn and Unit Types.

Ceann wrote:Just like if you looked at the weaponry section without having looked at core rules it would mean nothing to you.

You are being provided values that go into the basic templates provided in core rules.

Actually, as I pointed out, the Weaponry Section is technically IN the basic rules section...

And just because something fits within a template of the core rules does not mean it isn't an advanced/special rule. This is a construct that you have created which has no support in the rulebook. Beasts and Cavalry can move 12" but they still have to follow the rules of Unit Coherency, distance from Enemy models, and Terrain, but moving more than 12" is breaking the limit on 6" movement distance.


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Ceann wrote:
Do you remember when you read the codex and did exactly what it said? That is what you are supposed to so.

But everyone wants to refer back to the BRB for various reasons ad infinitum.

Because there are still interactions that you need to deal with that are provided by the BRB. How do you know when you've charged? What is considered base contact? How do you know if it is a special rule? What are the restrictions on special rules?

If the codex does not change anything about a rule, we are using the rulebook.

Otherwise, can you play a 40K game without ever referring to anything in the rulebook? You have to run the game 100% from the codex and supplement. Can you?

Again you are wrong.

Infantry is a unit type, it is in the unit section. Infantry unit types were used as the examples to explain the rules in the core rules section.

These are examples buddy.

What does it say, it says those are the rules that pertain to infantry and it also says "so far" that means they are not yet done telling you. It also states that unit types are an EXTENSION of the characteristics profile. That means an extension of that means they are basic rules. The core rules tell you HOW to use the values you get from types. Because infantry are the most common and least complicated unit type they used those while explaining the core rules.

You are still wrong about the bikes.
If I add an IC with a bike to the unit that unit may have those rules, if the IC leaves those rules leave with him, that is advanced.

Relentless is located under special rules in the unit type because it is a special rule, notice how the BRB never calls it a basic rule. All rules in a unit type that pertain to basic rules, are basic rules. Swooping and zooming are different kinds of movement rules, they are still movement rules nonetheless, making them basic moves.

If a rule included in the unit types is specific to a phase, it is a basic rule for that unit type for that phase as long as it is the movement, shooting , assault phase, or is a rule for morale.

Calvary and beasts do not modify any base rule, the movement rules for calvary and beasts are the basic movement rules for them, not an advanced rule.

Advanced rules apply to models, if I have 30 bikes what specific model has splitfire? None, they all do. That is a special rule. If there is a unit of 30 with one bike that is an advanced rule a specific model has the rule, not the unit.

If you have a bike unit and an IC joins he gains spitfire, if he leaves he loses it.

Two different scenarios, one with the advanced rules attached to a specific model and one with the special rules attached to the unit.

That is the only real difference between advanced rules and special rules, one is being applied via unit one is being applied via a model.

The difference. Is the SOURCE of how that rule is gained.

But you don't understand any of this, it's too hard for you.
You can't reverse analyze what you are saying and see how it doesn't work backwards.

Basic vs advanced tells us that the basic rules for movement apply to all models, that does not mean all modes move 6. It means all models move in inches, tells you how they interact with terrain all of the information that is not relevant to the values.

Is the infantry unit type in the core rules? No, its listed in the unit type with everyone else.

Ceann wrote:
Again you are wrong.

Infantry is a unit type, it is in the unit section. Infantry unit types were used as the examples to explain the rules in the core rules section.

These are examples buddy.

Where does it call them examples in any of these cases? Quote it, please.

Ceann wrote:
What does it say, it says those are the rules that pertain to infantry and it also says "so far" that means they are not yet done telling you. It also states that unit types are an EXTENSION of the characteristics profile. That means an extension of that means they are basic rules. The core rules tell you HOW to use the values you get from types. Because infantry are the most common and least complicated unit type they used those while explaining the core rules.

Just because they are listed in the Characteristics does not make them basic rules. Calling them something else is basic, but all else is Advanced. By extension of this concept, nothing is a special rule or advanced rule because they can all be tied back to the basic rules.

Good luck getting a game in with that philosophy.

Ceann wrote:
You are still wrong about the bikes.
If I add an IC with a bike to the unit that unit may have those rules, if the IC leaves those rules leave with him, that is advanced.

Quite wrong. An IC and the joined unit do not swap Special Rules. That is IC 101. A Bike Captain does not become Infantry just by joining a unit of Infantry. There are no rules or instructions to do so. He remains a Bike Unit Type.

Ceann wrote:
Relentless is located under special rules in the unit type because it is a special rule, notice how the BRB never calls it a basic rule. All rules in a unit type that pertain to basic rules, are basic rules. Swooping and zooming are different kinds of movement rules, they are still movement rules nonetheless, making them basic moves.

Your reasoning is flawed as they change many of the rules on how they interact, therefore they are Special Rules. Relentless also refers back to the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, and Assault Phase, that doesn't stop them from being a special rule.

You have yet to provide any single sentence that states that special rules are only found in the one place and its location is the only definition to go by. You have yet to provide any single sentence which states that the definition I have provided is not the definition the rulebook goes by.

Ceann wrote:
If a rule included in the unit types is specific to a phase, it is a basic rule for that unit type for that phase as long as it is the movement, shooting , assault phase, or is a rule for morale.

For the unit type, not the game. Where does it state that I can ignore Terrain in the Movement Phase? Where does it state I can reroll the Charge Distance in the Assault Phase? Where does it state that a model treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain in the Movement or the Assault Phase?

Ceann wrote:
Calvary and beasts do not modify any base rule, the movement rules for calvary and beasts are the basic movement rules for them, not an advanced rule.

For them, not the game. Where does it state that Cavalry and Beasts can move 12" in the Movement Phase section? It's not in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook so it is not basic rules. The Movement Distance portion of the Movement Phase section does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type to determine the model's movement distance.

Ceann wrote:
Advanced rules apply to models, if I have 30 bikes what specific model has splitfire? None, they all do. That is a special rule. If there is a unit of 30 with one bike that is an advanced rule a specific model has the rule, not the unit.

Bikes do not come with Split Fire by default. Split Fire is a special rule that is added on elsewhere. If it is added on by their Army List Entry, those are "Special Rules which apply to the models in the unit listed there." (direct quote from datasheet legend, btw)

As it is, only one model in the unit needs to have Split Fire in order for any of the models to use it. This point is based on faulty presumptions, so I do not see where it is going.

Ceann wrote:
If you have a bike unit and an IC joins he gains spitfire, if he leaves he loses it.

No, he does not gain Split Fire. He can fire at a different target from the rest of the bike unit, because that's how Split Fire works.

Ceann wrote:
Two different scenarios, one with the advanced rules attached to a specific model and one with the special rules attached to the unit.

Special Rules are Advanced Rules. Advanced Rules are Special Rules. By their own definitions.

Ceann wrote:
That is the only real difference between advanced rules and special rules, one is being applied via unit one is being applied via a model.

Logic based on faulty premises is faulty. Those statements cannot be found in either rulebook or codex.

Ceann wrote:
The difference. Is the SOURCE of how that rule is gained.

But you don't understand any of this, it's too hard for you.
You can't reverse analyze what you are saying and see how it doesn't work backwards.

You have provided nothing to demonstrate these things without taking things out of context. I don't have to accept out of context interpretations.

Just because we don't accept what you are saying doesn't mean we don't understand what you are saying. We are saying you are wrong.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Again you are wrong.

Infantry is a unit type, it is in the unit section. Infantry unit types were used as the examples to explain the rules in the core rules section.

These are examples buddy.

Where does it call them examples in any of these cases? Quote it, please.

Ceann wrote:
What does it say, it says those are the rules that pertain to infantry and it also says "so far" that means they are not yet done telling you. It also states that unit types are an EXTENSION of the characteristics profile. That means an extension of that means they are basic rules. The core rules tell you HOW to use the values you get from types. Because infantry are the most common and least complicated unit type they used those while explaining the core rules.

Just because they are listed in the Characteristics does not make them basic rules. Calling them something else is basic, but all else is Advanced. By extension of this concept, nothing is a special rule or advanced rule because they can all be tied back to the basic rules.

Good luck getting a game in with that philosophy.

Ceann wrote:
You are still wrong about the bikes.
If I add an IC with a bike to the unit that unit may have those rules, if the IC leaves those rules leave with him, that is advanced.

Quite wrong. An IC and the joined unit do not swap Special Rules. That is IC 101. A Bike Captain does not become Infantry just by joining a unit of Infantry. There are no rules or instructions to do so. He remains a Bike Unit Type.

Ceann wrote:
Relentless is located under special rules in the unit type because it is a special rule, notice how the BRB never calls it a basic rule. All rules in a unit type that pertain to basic rules, are basic rules. Swooping and zooming are different kinds of movement rules, they are still movement rules nonetheless, making them basic moves.

Your reasoning is flawed as they change many of the rules on how they interact, therefore they are Special Rules. Relentless also refers back to the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, and Assault Phase, that doesn't stop them from being a special rule.

You have yet to provide any single sentence that states that special rules are only found in the one place and its location is the only definition to go by. You have yet to provide any single sentence which states that the definition I have provided is not the definition the rulebook goes by.

Ceann wrote:
If a rule included in the unit types is specific to a phase, it is a basic rule for that unit type for that phase as long as it is the movement, shooting , assault phase, or is a rule for morale.

For the unit type, not the game. Where does it state that I can ignore Terrain in the Movement Phase? Where does it state I can reroll the Charge Distance in the Assault Phase? Where does it state that a model treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain in the Movement or the Assault Phase?

Ceann wrote:
Calvary and beasts do not modify any base rule, the movement rules for calvary and beasts are the basic movement rules for them, not an advanced rule.

For them, not the game. Where does it state that Cavalry and Beasts can move 12" in the Movement Phase section? It's not in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook so it is not basic rules. The Movement Distance portion of the Movement Phase section does not tell us to refer to the Unit Type to determine the model's movement distance.

Ceann wrote:
Advanced rules apply to models, if I have 30 bikes what specific model has splitfire? None, they all do. That is a special rule. If there is a unit of 30 with one bike that is an advanced rule a specific model has the rule, not the unit.

Bikes do not come with Split Fire by default. Split Fire is a special rule that is added on elsewhere. If it is added on by their Army List Entry, those are "Special Rules which apply to the models in the unit listed there." (direct quote from datasheet legend, btw)

As it is, only one model in the unit needs to have Split Fire in order for any of the models to use it. This point is based on faulty presumptions, so I do not see where it is going.

Ceann wrote:
If you have a bike unit and an IC joins he gains spitfire, if he leaves he loses it.

No, he does not gain Split Fire. He can fire at a different target from the rest of the bike unit, because that's how Split Fire works.

Ceann wrote:
Two different scenarios, one with the advanced rules attached to a specific model and one with the special rules attached to the unit.

Special Rules are Advanced Rules. Advanced Rules are Special Rules. By their own definitions.

Ceann wrote:
That is the only real difference between advanced rules and special rules, one is being applied via unit one is being applied via a model.

Logic based on faulty premises is faulty. Those statements cannot be found in either rulebook or codex.

Ceann wrote:
The difference. Is the SOURCE of how that rule is gained.

But you don't understand any of this, it's too hard for you.
You can't reverse analyze what you are saying and see how it doesn't work backwards.

You have provided nothing to demonstrate these things without taking things out of context. I don't have to accept out of context interpretations.

Just because we don't accept what you are saying doesn't mean we don't understand what you are saying. We are saying you are wrong.

This is not wrong you are being intentionally dense.
I am not trying to debate you I am trying to explain to you in what you are seeing differently and rather than analyze what I am saying and asking questions for clarification you are just attempting to shoot it all down without due consideration.
You want war, you got it.

Ceann wrote:

This is not wrong you are being intentionally dense.
I am not trying to debate you I am trying to explain to you in what you are seeing differently and rather than analyze what I am saying and asking questions for clarification you are just attempting to shoot it all down without due consideration.
You want war, you got it.

Instead of war, I am sure all of us just want you to start backing up your argument with actual rules.

1. Splash Page for the BRB Page 7
This section contains all the basic rules you will need in order to command your army and fight 40k battles.
Note - ALL.

2. BRB Page 8

Other Important Information & Vehicle Characteristics

In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.

Note - UNITS TYPES are located and accounted for in CORE RULES making them BASIC RULES. Page numbers are included in the physical BRB.

3. Page 18 BRB

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Note - Still the core rules section, all of these unit types are basic rules.

Need more? I can keep going.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It helps if you read the pages BEFORE making arguments rather than after I tell you the pages.

So are we done with this "unit types" are advanced rules nonsense? Only BASIC rules are in the core section and unit types are accounted for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Only Infantry rules are basic rules right?

After 18 pages has anyone agreed with you yet Ceann?

They might have too now, people have been saying unit types are advanced rules when clearly if you actually just read the core rules you will find out they are basic rules.

But people are more concerned with winning arguments than understanding the rules, or making snobby comments for no reason.
A couple have but did not feel inclined to stick around and educate the masses.

Ceann wrote:
1. Splash Page for the BRB Page 7
This section contains all the basic rules you will need in order to command your army and fight 40k battles.
Note - ALL.

2. BRB Page 8

Other Important Information & Vehicle Characteristics

In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.

Note - UNITS TYPES are located and accounted for in CORE RULES making them BASIC RULES. Page numbers are included in the physical BRB.

3. Page 18 BRB

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Note - Still the core rules section, all of these unit types are basic rules.

OK, so according to you, the CORE RULES section contains all the basic rules correct?

Ceann wrote:
They might have too now, people have been saying unit types are advanced rules when clearly if you actually just read the core rules you will find out they are basic rules.

But people are more concerned with winning arguments than understanding the rules, or making snobby comments for no reason.
A couple have but did not feel inclined to stick around and educate the masses.

Is the Unit Types section part of the Core Rules section?

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

If the Unit Types section is not in the Core Rules section then all the rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules and are therefore advanced rules.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
They might have too now, people have been saying unit types are advanced rules when clearly if you actually just read the core rules you will find out they are basic rules.

But people are more concerned with winning arguments than understanding the rules, or making snobby comments for no reason.
A couple have but did not feel inclined to stick around and educate the masses.

Is the Unit Types section part of the Core Rules section?

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

If the Unit Types section is not in the Core Rules section then all the rules in the Unit Types section are NOT basic rules and are therefore advanced rules.

Word soup.

Picking the words you want and ignoring the rest.
The physical BRB lists the page numbers, so yes those pages are in the core rules section.

Ceann wrote:


Word soup.

Picking the words you want and ignoring the rest.
The physical BRB lists the page numbers, so yes those pages are in the core rules section.

The actual rules have to be in the Core Rules section for them to be basic rules.


The Unit Type section does not contain ANY basic rules. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

All the rules in the Unit Type section are Advanced Rules if the dichotomy Basic versus Advanced applies to all rules.


1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.

2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.

That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.

3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:
But people are more concerned with winning arguments than understanding the rules, or making snobby comments for no reason.
A couple have but did not feel inclined to stick around and educate the masses.

You really don't have any idea how funny that sounds coming from you, it's you that doesn't understand the rules and it's you that people aren't sticking around to educate. But hey one of these days you'll get something right, stopped clock being right and all that.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


Word soup.

Picking the words you want and ignoring the rest.
The physical BRB lists the page numbers, so yes those pages are in the core rules section.

The actual rules have to be in the Core Rules section for them to be basic rules.


The Unit Type section does not contain ANY basic rules. All the basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

All the rules in the Unit Type section are Advanced Rules if the dichotomy Basic versus Advanced applies to all rules.


1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.

2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.

That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.

3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.

The page numbers are located in the core rules, therefore I am permitted to access them.

1) Yes, they are.

2) Yes, that is correct.

""""Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale. """"
What page number states this?

""""Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.""""
What page number states this?

3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules
What page number states this?

Ceann wrote:


The page numbers are located in the core rules, therefore I am permitted to access them.

'40k publication' is mentioned in the Core Rules. So, is everything published in a 40k publication a basic rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


""""Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale. """"
What page number states this?
?

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Ceann wrote:

""""Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.""""
What page number states this?

Rules are either basic or advanced per the Basic Versus Advanced rule.



We know where all the basic rules are.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Therefore, any rule that is not in the Core Rules section in the BRB is an advanced rule.

Do they have page numbers referenced in the core rules?


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col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


The page numbers are located in the core rules, therefore I am permitted to access them.

'40k publication' is mentioned in the Core Rules. So, is everything published in a 40k publication a basic rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


""""Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale. """"
What page number states this?

""""Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.""""
What page number states this?
?

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

I understand what the quote from Basic vs Advanced states.

The other two lines are your own personal interpretation of what that actually means, is what I disagree with.
Hence your lack of page numbers when I asked for a reference of those statements.

Ceann wrote:
Do they have page numbers referenced in the core rules?

Where are the actual rules located? Are the actual rules contained in the Core Rules section?

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

If the actual rules are not contained in the Core Rules section then they are NOT basic rules. They are instead advanced rules.

Really?

The splash page for Unit Types does not say it contains ANY advanced rules at all.

Since the splash page is absolute as you have demonstrated, there are NO advanced rules in that section.
The spash page for the index however does say it contains Advanced Rules.

And since the Core Rules section specifys the pages of the Unit Types section, that makes them basic rules.
All advanced rules are located in the Appendix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Core Rules

Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.

Vehicle Characteristics
Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.


-----------------------------

Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

-----------------------------

Core Rules states that Unit Types are part of the profile in the basic rules.

Unit Types page references that it has only explained the rules as the pertain to infantry and now explains the rules as they pertain to the other basic Unit Types. Each section has a specific statement on each side stating the relationship.

Are you able to read?

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Unit Types - This section describes the different types of units that can wage war in the 41st Millenium and the rules you will need to use them.

So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. However, whilst the definition of Infantry is incredibly broad (it can cover anything from the most diminutive Gretchin to the mightiest Space Marine), it’s not enough to capture the full variety, scope and splendour of a war-torn galaxy teeming with all manner of alien beasts.

To do justice to the full pomp and panoply of xenos creatures (as well as some of the weirder beings in service to the Emperor of Mankind), we will now cover a series of unit types, each with their own abilities and special rules. Vehicles are distinct enough to
require their own section later on.

Appendix - This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Yep, I can read.

Core Rules

Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.

Vehicle Characteristics
Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.


-----------------------------

Unit Types
So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game. In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.

-----------------------------

Core Rules states that Unit Types are part of the profile in the basic rules.

Unit Types page references that it has only explained the rules as the pertain to infantry and now explains the rules as they pertain to the other basic Unit Types. Each section has a specific statement on each side stating the relationship.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about you start listing off some of the things that you believe to be "Advanced Rules" and I will let you know if I agree or disagree with you.

This will be the only way to we can accurately ensure we are coming to the same conclusion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we talk about rad grenades now?

Threads like these are the reason I browse YMDC.

Ceann wrote:This is not wrong you are being intentionally dense.

No, I am not being intentionally dense. I am taking the rulebook's rules as they are written in the context in which they are stated.

Ceann wrote:I am not trying to debate you I am trying to explain to you in what you are seeing differently and rather than analyze what I am saying and asking questions for clarification you are just attempting to shoot it all down without due consideration.

If you are not trying to debate, then you are not listening to what the other side is saying. You have made it a dogmatic stance to stick to this interpretation and refuse to listen to anyone else.

I have analyzed what you have said and I have made every statement with due consideration. I have countered them with the rules themselves and taken those statements in context. If it seems that I respond quickly, it is because I am familiar with many of these rules and I have a digital copy of the rulebook that I can do a search on.

I even provided questions that would guide you through the paradigm of which I have presented. In those cases, you have failed to answer the challenge, either by deflecting, projecting, or simply ignoring them.

Ceann wrote:You want war, you got it.

You may want to rethink that. This statement could be construed as a personal attack, as could the first sentence.

Ceann wrote:1. Splash Page for the BRB Page 7
This section contains all the basic rules you will need in order to command your army and fight 40k battles.
Note - ALL.

2. BRB Page 8

Other Important Information & Vehicle Characteristics

In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.

Note - UNITS TYPES are located and accounted for in CORE RULES making them BASIC RULES. Page numbers are included in the physical BRB.

That is out of context. Noting that there is a Unit Type field and that they are there is all it does. What those unit types do are NOT basic rules nor core rules. I should note that the same splash page notes that Unit Types are NOT Core Rules, which could be translated as basic rules per the definition provided in Basic vs Advanced.

Again, this is like taking any special rule and calling it basic because it ties in to the basic rules of the game.

Ceann wrote:3. Page 18 BRB

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Note - Still the core rules section, all of these unit types are basic rules.

Need more? I can keep going.

Still no statement of Infantry being an example or telling us to refer to the Unit Type to see how far it goes. I have stated that several times now and you still have yet to provide and adequate defense.

Ceann wrote:It helps if you read the pages BEFORE making arguments rather than after I tell you the pages.

So are we done with this "unit types" are advanced rules nonsense? Only BASIC rules are in the core section and unit types are accounted for.

Special Rules are also mentioned in the same areas. Are they core rules, too?

Your standard is mockable as it follows double standards. You require Special Rules to be only in a special place, but the rules for modifying the movement of a Unit Type can be found all over the place as basic rules and not in the section which defines them.

Even if we go by your standard that Basic rules cover all Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault rules, that does not cover Modifiers, as Modifiers are not addressed in that statement. Modifiers are applied to models as units do not carry such stats. Which still makes what Rad Grenades do a special rule.

Ceann wrote:Only Infantry rules are basic rules right?

Any rule that applies generally are Infantry rules, yes. In fact, "As the bulk of the rules are concerned with them, there are no additional rules to present here." Anything that modifies or differentiates how a model acts from being Infantry is Advanced and Special Rules.

Infantry are located in the Unit Types section which per your terminology would also make them Advanced Rules.


My standard is not that basic rules "cover all Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault rules"

Basic vs Advanced.
"Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."

The unit types section provides rules that are used by those units for the purposes of movement, shooting close combat and morale. This says to me that all of those rules included in that section that pertain to those criteria, are also basic rules. Because basic rules apply to all models in the game.

A flyer cannot move like infantry unit.
Movement cannot be both a basic rule and an advanced rule.

We have to look at exactly what an advanced rule is asking for, not just grab a brush called "advanced rule" and paint it over the entire section.

We have not been given a statement such that the Core Rules has that it "contains all basic rules" or such that the special rules section has "presented all special rules".

If you read what Advanced Rules is asking for, those rules can really only be located in one place. The Army List Entry.

If the Unit Types section specifically contained Advanced Rules why does the index point us to page 13? That does not make sense. We should be pointed to Unit Types if that is where they were actually located.

This is why I have made the statement that only special rules are in the special rules section and everything else in the BRB is a basic rule. The only reference we have to the location of Advanced Rules is on page 13 and that tells us Army List Entrys.

The statement about Advanced rules applying to a specific model criteria are not tenable in the BRB. We description provided is extremely vauge and while you could maybe in your head try to imagine what it is referencing you are just guessing. The BRB actually discusses no specific models I am aware of, that only happens in an Army List Entry, such as buying a plasma pistol for a sergeant. Or a unit have "regeneration" IWND by purchasing some wargear and the other vaguely described terms.

If you analyze the entire Basic vs Advanced as a whole I think the following is quite a reasonable conclusion as it corolates the statement that Codex rules supersede BRB but are still supersede by special rules.

1. All basic rules are in the BRB
2. All USR's are located in the special rules sections.
3. All advanced rules are located on Army List Entry's or codex's.
4. Any special rules not in the BRB will be in their appropriate codex.

Ceann wrote:
Infantry are located in the Unit Types section which per your terminology would also make them Advanced Rules.

And what does the Infantry entry state?

Ceann wrote:
My standard is not that basic rules "cover all Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault rules"

Really? Because that is how you have presented it. Cavalry and Beast Unit Types can move 12". This is 6" more than the Movement Distance in the Basic Rules. You have stated that this is basic rules.

So, either you saying that 12" Movement is basic rules despite what is written in the Movement Distance in the Movement Phase section, and thus all such modifications are basic rules, OR your concept is falling flat on its own face and 12" Movement is not basic rules, but advanced rules as its out of that range and special rules because it breaks the 6" Movement Distance.

So, which is it?

Ceann wrote:
Basic vs Advanced.
"Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale."

The unit types section provides rules that are used by those units for the purposes of movement, shooting close combat and morale. This says to me that all of those rules included in that section that pertain to those criteria, are also basic rules. Because basic rules apply to all models in the game.

Which is what I said you were saying.

Ceann wrote:
A flyer cannot move like infantry unit.
Movement cannot be both a basic rule and an advanced rule.

Why not?
What makes Flyers so different that it cannot be applied in the same concept form for other Vehicles, Beasts, Cavalry, and Jumpers?

When it follows the Infantry standard, it is basic rules. Monstrous Creatures and Walkers move like Infantry, so no Advanced rules there. However, other Vehicles, Beasts, Cavalry, and Jumpers can move more than the Infantry's 6". This change makes it an Advanced Rule.

Ceann wrote:
We have to look at exactly what an advanced rule is asking for, not just grab a brush called "advanced rule" and paint it over the entire section.

Agreed. And I should point out that Advanced rules do consider these things, but I guess you didn't read that part did you?

Here you go:

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.

So, yeah, not being an Infantry model is Advanced Rules.

Ceann wrote:
We have not been given a statement such that the Core Rules has that it "contains all basic rules" or such that the special rules section has "presented all special rules".

Well, actually we have. You have ignored it and not accepted it. There is a difference in that.

Ceann wrote:
If you read what Advanced Rules is asking for, those rules can really only be located in one place. The Army List Entry.

If the Unit Types section specifically contained Advanced Rules why does the index point us to page 13? That does not make sense. We should be pointed to Unit Types if that is where they were actually located.

I do not have the dead-tree version, so I don't know why it doesn't send you to that section. Does it really on show page 13? Or is it because it is mentioned on page 13, without actually defining much of any of the rules for that?

Ceann wrote:
This is why I have made the statement that only special rules are in the special rules section and everything else in the BRB is a basic rule. The only reference we have to the location of Advanced Rules is on page 13 and that tells us Army List Entrys.

So, you do believe that everything that links back to Movement, Shooting, Morale, and Assault are basic rules, despite denying it just a few short paragraphs before.

To put it bluntly, you are being far too close-minded. You are adding things to the situation that it does not state, while ignoring many of the things that are said.

Ceann wrote:
The statement about Advanced rules applying to a specific model criteria are not tenable in the BRB. We description provided is extremely vauge and while you could maybe in your head try to imagine what it is referencing you are just guessing. The BRB actually discusses no specific models I am aware of, that only happens in an Army List Entry, such as buying a plasma pistol for a sergeant. Or a unit have "regeneration" IWND by purchasing some wargear and the other vaguely described terms.

If you think that the BRB never discusses specific models, then you need to reread the entire rulebook with a paradigm shift. There are plenty of occasions where it talks about models specifically. Look up Who gets to Shoot. Look up Move Initial Charger. Look up Characters.

Ceann wrote:
If you analyze the entire Basic vs Advanced as a whole I think the following is quite a reasonable conclusion as it corolates the statement that Codex rules supersede BRB but are still supersede by special rules.

1. All basic rules are in the BRB
2. All USR's are located in the special rules sections.

All true and never in argument, but we haven't been talking about Universal Special Rules here. The Universals are all you will find in the Special Rules section of the BRB. For things more specific, we have to drill down in other places like the Unit Types or the Army List Entries.

Ceann wrote:
3. All advanced rules are located on Army List Entry's or codex's.

Well, sure, if you want to pick and choose what you want to work with in the definition of Advanced Rules. We can do all sorts of things in evaluating the rules if we do that. I already pointed out to you a couple things you missed.

While you can find a unit's Advanced Rules on its Army List Entry, they are often not defined there. In most cases, you have to either refer back to the BRB for Unit Type, USRs, and some Wargear. While most new codex rules will be found in the codex's Appendix (depending on the age of the codex), with some unique special rules and Wargear being detailed in the Army List Entry (like Hunters From Hyperspace).

Ceann wrote:
4. Any special rules not in the BRB will be in their appropriate codex.

True. But that doesn't mean they won't be found in Wargear, either.

Ceann wrote:
1. Splash Page for the BRB Page 7
This section contains all the basic rules you will need in order to command your army and fight 40k battles.

Note - ALL.

Here is your flaw, this is no different than claiming as example all the space marines you own are those who come with a starter box, but also refusing to aknowledge not everything in that starter box is a marine model ( since some orks or chaos marines comes too )

You believe everything in the rulebook aside the final "special rules" are basic, when most of those are advanced versions of it.

Special unit types, special wargear and advanced rules that allow to bend normal ones. ( so concentrated wichtfire being resolved differently than normal shooting attacks as example)

Charistoph

My standard cannot be exactly as you stated it, the reason why my statement is different is I would like for you to look at the verbiage. It might surprise you that things you say don't always appear to make sense either, so ask for clarification not claim I am contradicting myself.

Maybe I mistook the way you placed it but it seemed that you were saying, that I was saying, the basic rules consisted of ONLY those things. I wanted to clarify that other things were also basic rules as well.


Core rules does tell you ALL of the basic rules. The basic rules consist of everything about HOW to play the game. Whatever unit type, weapon, psychic power you use, those are not new rules, they are basic rules and they plug into phases described within the core rules.

A simplified example a gave earlier....
The core rules tell you how to wear hats, shirts, pants, shoes etc. This is so that you know how to wear all of those things correctly.

Besides the special rules, all of the other sections only tell you about different kinds of hats, shirts,pants and shoes. They do not tell you any new rules, they only tell you about different options based upon their types. The core rules section repeatedly references the different unit types and states it will explain them later in order to present the most simplified example of HOW the rules function. All the other things tell you is how different things fit into the rules that were described.

If I show you how to put on green pants and someone else shows up wearing blue pants, he doesn't have something new, he has different color pants, they are still pants.

We are not being told in a different section about how gloves work, or earrings. Everything we are told in the rest of the book afterwards are simply the options available WITHIN the phases of the game that were explained. We are not told NEW kinds of rules outside of the core section.

I missed you asked, yes the physical BRB index tells you page 13 if you go to it and look for "Advanced Rules" it has pg 13. Nothing else.

In Basic vs Advanced we are told...
.""""""Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.""""""

As I said before, a flyer cannot move 6, it must move 18".
Movement is a basic rule. Hence any movement cannot be an advanced rule. It cannot be a basic rule and an advanced rule, at the same time. The only rules in the unit types section that are not used as the "include" four types are the special rules and those are located in the special rules section. Doesn't matter if its tap dancing or whatever.

We are also told these things...

""""""Advanced rules apply to specific types of models....""""""
(the examples they provide are just as I mentioned vague examples)

""""""The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.""""""

""""""For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence..""""""

It doesn't say it, but this is clearly an example of fearless.

Advanced rules include things, such as the options on a data sheet to purchase gear.

In my GK codex, for Brother-Captain Stern. The ability Strands of Fate, is an advanced rule and Zone of Banishment.

The champions have, Heroic Sacrifice, The Perfect Warrior, these are not listed as special rules on the army list entry, making them advanced rules.

Blessing of the Omnissiah and Bolster Defenses are advanced rules for a Techmarine.

Purchasing a relic is an advanced rule.

These seem to fit your definition of Advanced rules that include "special kind of weapon, unusual skills, because they are different to their fellows, because they are not normal infantry models" a lot better than saying all of the unit rules in the codex are advanced rules. These things are also indicated on their Army List Entry and not located under the special rules section.

Your interpretation of the above is extremely disingenuous you are basing what is a basic rule off a statement that doesn't even make sense when you apply it.

What is a "non-normal" infantry model? That would be a sergeant in a squad, or a Justicar, or an Ch, these are all non-normal infantry models. It doesn't say NON INFANTRY model, it says non NORMAL infantry. It is also referring to for example that beast has the special rule FLEET by virtue of being a beast, not because it moves 12". Infantry have no default special rules. A chariot might have Hammer of Wrath, a bike or a tank might have Relentless, by virtue of the unit type. Not because the basic rules they used are advanced rules. The vague way they worded this creates an impression that non-advanced rules are advanced rules. Again movement cannot be an advanced rule, because it is already a basic rule.

BRB Page 17.

2. Movement phase. Here, you MOVE any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.

BRB Page 18.

Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that MOVE at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency.

Jetpack Units

MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can MOVE as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).

SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can MOVE

Thrust move - A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can MOVE...

SPECIAL RULES
Jet Pack units have the Bulky, Deep Strike and Relentless special rules.

By what I was saying, the above are all basic movement rules, or special rules. Where do we get a conclusion that there is an advanced rule here?


1. Glad we agree
2. Glad we agree

3. A place of contention - Can you give me a specific example that you feel contradicts how I stated these work?

4. It does actually. See the Datasheet guide for the units.
10. Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed in either the Appendix of this book or in the special rules section of Warhammer 40k: The Rules.

This means that unless you are TOLD it is a special rule, such as the case for Rad Grenades not being listed under the special rules section of an Inquistors Army List Entry, then it is not a special rule. Notice that the Army List Entry only points us back to the SPECIAL RULES section of the BRB. This also coincides with my statements that ALL special rules found within the BRB are in the special rules section.

Unusual grenades are not in the special rules section.
Rad Grenades are an list option, making them advanced rules.
Advanced rules supersede the basic rules.
We use the verbatim statement of rad grenades in Codex: IA.

Does that entry say they have a special rule?
Does the Codex IA appendix say they have a special rule?

we're more than done here.