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Ceann wrote:

If you are attempting to consult the BRB for any other reason, UNLESS EXPLICITY INSTRUCTED ON THE DATASHEET, then you are not allowed to do so.

This is the greatest sentence ever posted in YMDC.

I'm just gonna leave this here:

 kronk wrote:

Ceann wrote:

If you are attempting to consult the BRB for any other reason, UNLESS EXPLICITY INSTRUCTED ON THE DATASHEET, then you are not allowed to do so.

This is the greatest sentence ever posted in YMDC.

So if I am playing Tyranids I can just ignore my datasheet, go to the BRB and start equipping Las cannons on my gaunts?

No.

The army list entry tells you what rules to refer too in reference to that particular codex. You are not free to associate any rules you wish to an army list entry.

 kronk wrote:

Ceann wrote:

If you are attempting to consult the BRB for any other reason, UNLESS EXPLICITY INSTRUCTED ON THE DATASHEET, then you are not allowed to do so.

This is the greatest sentence ever posted in YMDC.

Never let this die.

And none of this has anything to do with actual topic of the thread.

Let's try this from another direction.

A criteria to be a special rule is that you are bending or breaking a basic rule, movement , shooting, assault or morale.

The melta rule breaks the rules because in the core rules you cannot roll 2 dice to pen.

Relentless breaks the rules because heavy weapons are supposed to snap shoot if you moved.

These are examples of basic rules being broken.

Please explain to me, the basic rule, being broken by rad grenades that would prompt them to be thought of as a special rule.

gungo wrote:Add ne to the list saying ceann is wrong rad grenades are fairly clearly a weapon as defined under special rules regardless of this one mans tirade.

No, they are not a Weapon, but they are Wargear, and Wargear do carry special rules.

Ceann wrote:
Advanced rules apply to specific MODELS.
Is unit type a model?
No. Models are models.

And the rules often are carried by the models of that unit type. Or are you saying that Bikes are only Relentless as a unit and not as individual models?

Ceann wrote:Are grenades a model?
No. Models are models.

No, but they are carried by models.

Ceann wrote:The other special rules you notated are located in their codex which is exactly what I already said. How can I claim the opposite of what I just said?
Garbage argument. Read my statement again.

Are rad grenades located in the special rules section of their army list entry? No.

Location means nothing. They fit the definition of special rules. Not all special rules will be found in a special rules section. In fact most Wargear Special Rules can only be found in the Armoury that they are provided in. Necron's Gauss for example.

Ceann wrote:I consider NOTHING a special rule unless I am told it is a special rule.

But you have been told it is a special rule. The definition has been provided. Location is never stated as part of that definition. Why do you cling to this as being the required definition?

Ceann wrote:Where are you told rad grenades are a special rule?
They are not in the special rules section of the brb.
They are not listed as having a special rule on their army list entry or codex.

Who said Rad Grenades are a special rule? They carry a special rule. They change how the interaction between models is performed. This has been stated ad nauseum. Much like Col_Ignored used to do with IC & Special Rules you are conflating the possession of something as being that something.

Ceann wrote:Why are rad grenades a special rule?
For what reason?

They carry a Special Rule because it is not a basic rule for a model's Toughness to be modified when in base contact with an enemy model. You have yet to demonstrate that this is a standard occurrence in the game system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
And none of this has anything to do with actual topic of the thread.

Let's try this from another direction.

A criteria to be a special rule is that you are bending or breaking a basic rule, movement , shooting, assault or morale.

The melta rule breaks the rules because in the core rules you cannot roll 2 dice to pen.

Relentless breaks the rules because heavy weapons are supposed to snap shoot if you moved.

These are examples of basic rules being broken.

Please explain to me, the basic rule, being broken by rad grenades that would prompt them to be thought of as a special rule.

Right above. It's only been stated at least every other page here.

Just as you are not allowed to roll 2 dice for Armour Penetration, you cannot lower your opponent's Toughness by being in Base Contact. If that is a standard rule, please provide for it. And do use the standards you noted above for doing so.

I'm curious what your take on the following is.

Page 40, Range. The first sentence.
"If the weapons's range contains a '-', it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon."

Page 181, Melta bombs.
A Melta bomb has the following profile in assaults:
Range: '-', Strength: 8, AP: 1, Type: Armourbane, Unwieldy.

You went on, previously saying a melta bomb is a an unusual grenade as it doesn't have a melee profile.
I don't understand how that sentence on page 40 does not apply here according to you.
Never mind how unwieldy would work if that is not the profile of a melee weapon.

The melee type is not required for a weapon to be a melee weapon, but has additional restrictions in that such a weapon can only be used in close combat.
It just so happens that 99% of melee weapons in the game also have the melee type.

I'm curious, because, unusual grenades cannot be used as a melee weapon.
Therefor, if melta bombs are melee weapons when used in close combat, they can't possibly be unusual grenades right?

Page 8 of the brb permits wargear to modify stats.
Does is not?

There are power weapons located in the BRB, they modify your str value.

Power weapons are not located in the special rules section.

The special rules section has ALL special rules in the BRB presented in a single section. Please we are talking strictly BRB not to confuse any other documents. The exhaustive part is redundant because we are only in the BRB.

If all special rules located in the BRB are presented in the special rules section, and a power weapon that meets your criteria of modifying a stat while in base contact is not located in that section, then I feel this presents a scenario that I need for you to explain to me.

Ceann wrote:
Page 8 of the brb permits wargear to modify stats.
Does is not?

No. It just notes that it happens, permission is not being granted. In addition, this is not part of those parts that you noted above.

Where in the Assault Phase rules am I granted permission to lower a model's Toughness while in Base Contact?

Ceann wrote:
There are power weapons located in the BRB, they modify your str value.

Power weapons are not located in the special rules section.

This is not an accepted argument. You are trying to make an argument based on us accepting your standards. We have not accepted that all special rules are defined by location, so this argument means nothing to us. Besides, Weapons is between Shooting and Assault.

Ceann wrote:
The special rules section has ALL special rules in the BRB presented in a single section. Please not we are talking strictly BRB not to confuse any other documents.

No, it does not. That sentence is taken out of context, which has been explained before. Some special rules are not tied to anything specific, but can be attached to numerous things. It is also stated that this is not an exhaustive list.

Ceann wrote:
If all special rules located in the BRB are presented in the special rules section, and a power weapon that meets your criteria of modifying a stat while in base contact is not located in that sextion, then I feel this presents a scenario that I need for you to explain to me.

They are not all located in the BRB special rules section, though. This is a standard that you alone are applying and no one has accepted the context in which you presented the case. Hard To Hit is one such an example. Thrust is another. Stomp would be a third. These are all Unit Type special rules which cannot be found in the special rules section.

 Roknar wrote:
I'm curious what your take on the following is.

Page 40, Range. The first sentence.
"If the weapons's range contains a '-', it is (unless otherwise stated) a Melee weapon."

Page 181, Melta bombs.
A Melta bomb has the following profile in assaults:
Range: '-', Strength: 8, AP: 1, Type: Armourbane, Unwieldy.

You went on, previously saying a melta bomb is a an unusual grenade as it doesn't have a melee profile.
I don't understand how that sentence on page 40 does not apply here according to you.
Never mind how unwieldy would work if that is not the profile of a melee weapon.

The melee type is not required for a weapon to be a melee weapon, but has additional restrictions in that such a weapon can only be used in close combat.
It just so happens that 99% of melee weapons in the game also have the melee type.

I'm curious, because, unusual grenades cannot be used as a melee weapon.
Therefor, if melta bombs are melee weapons when used in close combat, they can't possibly be unusual grenades right?

I do t feel like discussing the grenades section was the right approach. The flaw here is that I feel many people have different ideas about what basic and special rules are. I do not ascribe to this idea that I can take the explanation of what a special rule is and run backwards and brand things as special rules as I see fit.

I only consider something a special rule exactly when I am told it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stomp is a basic rule for that unit, it is not breaking any rules it is following the rules for that unit type. Units are listed in the core rules and unit types are stated at the beginning of that section to be an extension of their profile, making them basic rules.

As for the special rules, go read the section, I am not making it up. It says that ALL special rules are presented there ALL. It then goes on to say the list is not exhaustive and the others can be found in codexs and army list entries. How you can not deduce that all special rules in the brb are in that section and all others are in codexs or data sheets is beyond me.

You seem to have this strange impression of special rules that you are given permission to decide what is and what is not a special rule entirely at your own discretion that is fundamentally flawed.

The reason the brb has a special rules section is so that you know own what they are.

The reason the unit types have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.

The reason army list entry's have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.

Tell me the rules page giving players the permission to make this decision on their own?

I wasn't talking about special rules at all?

I gave you the RAW and an example on why the grenades presented in the BRB cannot possibly be unusual grenades.

I was trying to understand why you say that they:
1. do not have melee profiles,
2. are not melee weapons.

You completely switched the topic.

One of your initial arguments was that the phrase " as explained below" pertains to unusual grenades, due the the manner they are used in.
That is as a melee weapon.

That makes no sense either way.
If it does refer to the unusual grenades, then it makes no sense to then immediately say that unusual grenades cannot be used as a melee weapon when they just stated that they have to be used as a melee weapon.
On the other hand if all the grenades shown are unusual grenades as you also claimed, then the RAW I posted makes no sense. Either one would have to be wrong.
Either they have melee profiles and are thus not unusual grenades, or they aren't melee weapos, in which case, I have no idea what you think it says on page 40, because then that can't be true.

My main point being: The unusual grenades box stands on it's own and the preceding paragraph does not refer to it. That affects much of what you base your claims on.

Ceann wrote:
The splash page, page 7, for Core Rules states...

This SECTION contain ALL the BASIC rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40k battles.

ALL the BASIC rules
ALL BASIC RULES

Whats in the core rules section?
Everything that isn't in the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's.

The splash page, page 155 for Appendix
This section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

section contains ALL of the ADVANCED RULES
ALL ADVANCED RULES

Are any of the things you listed in the Appendix?
No?

Can we move on from word soup now?

Still several pages for me to wade through (this is from page 14), and this is all probably a horrible digression, but I do have to point out where you're wrong here.

Page 155 says "This section contains A COLLECTION O"F advanced rules, weapon ry and abilities that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles. It does not say "all" of the advanced rules. You misrepresent what the rulebook is saying. You've misrepresented things in this thread before (such as claiming something can't be an unusual grenade because it can't be used in melee, which is a contradiction to what is said in the unusual grenade section)

Also, the quote for page 7, "CORE RULES" - we can go buy the quote that it contains all the basic rules that you will need. This section, however, ends with page 59. Page 60 has a picture of a Space Marine and "In an Hour of Darknss a Blind Man is the Best Guide"., and page 61 starts a new section - UNIT TYPES. That means that everything starting with Unit Types are advanced rules if you take the statement about the Core Rules section containing all of the basic rules to be correct. So, technically, at this point you are wrong about things having to be in the appendix or a codex to be an advanced rule.

Ceann wrote:
I do t feel like discussing the grenades section was the right approach. The flaw here is that I feel many people have different ideas about what basic and special rules are. I do not ascribe to this idea that I can take the explanation of what a special rule is and run backwards and brand things as special rules as I see fit.

Why not? Why does a definition towards the end of the book not apply to everything else previous to it?

Ceann wrote:
I only consider something a special rule exactly when I am told it is.

And you have been told, and you have ignored it. You are only considering something a special rule when you find it in a special section called special rule. That is a different case all together.

Ceann wrote:
Stomp is a basic rule for that unit, it is not breaking any rules it is following the rules for that unit type. Units are listed in the core rules and unit types are stated at the beginning of that section to be an extension of their profile, making them basic rules.

Special Rules do not care if they are the basic rules for the unit. They care if they are not the basic rules for the game. How many units can Stomp? If the answer is, "only those that have it", it's a special rule. If the answer is, "everyone except those said without it", then it is a basic rule.

So, who has Stomp, everyone or just those who have it?

Ceann wrote:
As for the special rules, go read the section, I am not making it up. It says that ALL special rules are presented there ALL. It then goes on to say the list is not exhaustive and the others can be found in codexs and army list entries. How you can not deduce that all special rules in the brb are in that section and all others are in codexs or data sheets is beyond me.

Already explained ad nauseum. We are going by the definition provided by the book, not by a location.

Ceann wrote:
You seem to have this strange impression of special rules that you are given permission to decide what is and what is not a special rule entirely at your own discretion that is fundamentally flawed.

Nope. Just going by the definition provided by the rulebook in the very section you keep touting. At no point is it ever stated that they are only listed in the Special Rules section, is it?

Ceann wrote:
The reason the brb has a special rules section is so that you know own what they are.

The reason the unit types have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.

Partly. And another reason is as the compendium puts it, they are, "presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule." These are the Universal Special Rules not tied down to any one thing like Thrust is. Many Weapons carry Melta and Blind. Many units and unit types carry Relentless and Fear.

Ceann wrote:
The reason army list entry's have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.

Tell me the rules page giving players the permission to make this decision on their own?

None of us are doing it on our own. We have given where to find it. You have refused to accept it for what it is. By refusing to accept that standard and by using another standard you are going from RAW to RAI.

Tom. Finish your research.

If you go to the index and look for advanced rules it takes you to page 13. Which is basic vs advanced.

Basic vs advanced states advanced rules apply to specific models.


The first section of unit types states that unit type is an extension of the profile, which is in basic rules. Being an extension makes all unit types and rules associated with those types as the basic rules for those units.

Are units, models?
No, models go IN units. So a unit type cannot be a model. A unit type tells you what rules apply to that model and the unit types tell you what special rules those units have. If unit types are extensions then only advanced rules can be special rules.

If unit types are basic rules then they cannot be special rules.

Or are we saying specific models are now units entirely on their own?

The splash page for the appendix states it contains advanced rules. Are unit types located in advanced rules? No. However the special rules located on unit types are, so special rules must be advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
Tom. Finish your research.

If you go to the index and look for advanced rules it takes you to page 13. Which is basic vs advanced.

Basic vs advanced states advanced rules apply to specific models.


The first section of unit types states that unit type is an extension of the profile, which is in basic rules. Being an extension makes all unit types and rules associated with those types as the basic rules for those units.

Are units, models?
No, models go IN units. So a unit type cannot be a model. A unit type tells you what rules apply to that model and the unit types tell you what special rules those units have.

Or are we saying specific models are now units entirely on their own?

The splash page for the appendix states it contains advanced rules. Are unit types located in advanced rules? No. However the special rules located on unit types are, so special rules must be advanced rules.

Units are built from models. Models carry the Wargear. The Wargear says to affect a unit. Are we not to follow the instructions of the rules?

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
I do t feel like discussing the grenades section was the right approach. The flaw here is that I feel many people have different ideas about what basic and special rules are. I do not ascribe to this idea that I can take the explanation of what a special rule is and run backwards and brand things as special rules as I see fit.

Why not? Why does a definition towards the end of the book not apply to everything else previous to it?

Ceann wrote:
I only consider something a special rule exactly when I am told it is.

And you have been told, and you have ignored it. You are only considering something a special rule when you find it in a special section called special rule. That is a different case all together.

Ceann wrote:
Stomp is a basic rule for that unit, it is not breaking any rules it is following the rules for that unit type. Units are listed in the core rules and unit types are stated at the beginning of that section to be an extension of their profile, making them basic rules.

Special Rules do not care if they are the basic rules for the unit. They care if they are not the basic rules for the game. How many units can Stomp? If the answer is, "only those that have it", it's a special rule. If the answer is, "everyone except those said without it", then it is a basic rule.

So, who has Stomp, everyone or just those who have it?

Ceann wrote:
As for the special rules, go read the section, I am not making it up. It says that ALL special rules are presented there ALL. It then goes on to say the list is not exhaustive and the others can be found in codexs and army list entries. How you can not deduce that all special rules in the brb are in that section and all others are in codexs or data sheets is beyond me.

Already explained ad nauseum. We are going by the definition provided by the book, not by a location.

Ceann wrote:
You seem to have this strange impression of special rules that you are given permission to decide what is and what is not a special rule entirely at your own discretion that is fundamentally flawed.

Nope. Just going by the definition provided by the rulebook in the very section you keep touting. At no point is it ever stated that they are only listed in the Special Rules section, is it?

Ceann wrote:
The reason the brb has a special rules section is so that you know own what they are.

The reason the unit types have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.

Partly. And another reason is as the compendium puts it, they are, "presented them all in a single section to make your life easier when trying to track down the effect of a particular special rule." These are the Universal Special Rules not tied down to any one thing like Thrust is. Many Weapons carry Melta and Blind. Many units and unit types carry Relentless and Fear.

Ceann wrote:
The reason army list entry's have special rules sections is so that you know what they are.

Tell me the rules page giving players the permission to make this decision on their own?

None of us are doing it on our own. We have given where to find it. You have refused to accept it for what it is. By refusing to accept that standard and by using another standard you are going from RAW to RAI.

So. The description, breaks or bends a rule, gives you permission to decide on your own, what is an is not a special rule. Is that what you are saying?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Tom. Finish your research.

If you go to the index and look for advanced rules it takes you to page 13. Which is basic vs advanced.

Basic vs advanced states advanced rules apply to specific models.


The first section of unit types states that unit type is an extension of the profile, which is in basic rules. Being an extension makes all unit types and rules associated with those types as the basic rules for those units.

Are units, models?
No, models go IN units. So a unit type cannot be a model. A unit type tells you what rules apply to that model and the unit types tell you what special rules those units have.

Or are we saying specific models are now units entirely on their own?

The splash page for the appendix states it contains advanced rules. Are unit types located in advanced rules? No. However the special rules located on unit types are, so special rules must be advanced rules.

Units are built from models. Models carry the Wargear. The Wargear says to affect a unit. Are we not to follow the instructions of the rules?

Dude.

Advanced rules apply to a SPECIFIC model.
If I take a death watch kill team, which includes one guy on a bike, one guy with terminator armor and the rest is vets we now have advanced rules. The SPECIFIC model with those items apply only to that model, THESE are situations that count as advanced rules.
The rules for that model DO not apply to the unit. The bike rider gains the special rule splitfire, because he has a bike. Do you understand what a special rule is now? What an advanced rule is? They apply to specific models, not units.
If I take an entire unit of bikes they ALL have splitfire but it is not an advanced rule because it is not being applied to a specific model.

Advanced rules are not unit types.
Advanced rules are when a special rule is applied to a MODEL.
Otherwise they apply to a UNIT.

Ceann wrote:
Tom. Finish your research.

If you go to the index and look for advanced rules it takes you to page 13. Which is basic vs advanced.

Basic vs advanced states advanced rules apply to specific models.


The first section of unit types states that unit type is an extension of the profile, which is in basic rules. Being an extension makes all unit types and rules associated with those types as the basic rules for those units.

Are units, models?
No, models go IN units. So a unit type cannot be a model. A unit type tells you what rules apply to that model and the unit types tell you what special rules those units have. If unit types are extensions then only advanced rules can be special rules.

If unit types are basic rules then they cannot be special rules.

Or are we saying specific models are now units entirely on their own?

The splash page for the appendix states it contains advanced rules. Are unit types located in advanced rules? No. However the special rules located on unit types are, so special rules must be advanced rules.

You are trying to deliberately obfuscate things here.

The index referring to page 13 refers you to the basic vs advanced rules where it defines what a basic rule is, what an advanced rule is anddescribes what the relationship between them is. That does not mean it is an advanced rule on page 13. In fact, the rule for applying advanced rules over basic rules is itself a basic rule by being in the corre rule section.

Now, if I wanted to be as condescending as you, I could tell you to finish your own research. Consult the table of contents on page 2. See how the section headers are set in a larger font, and there's a space between one section and the next to tell you where the next section starts? This indicates what section is what. Backing this up is them taking two pages with artwork and a quote on them along with the title of the section in a large point type font. Now, on the table of contents, you can see the last thing listed in the "Core Rules" section is "MORALE" on page 56. That means it's the last thing in that section. "UNIT TYPES" is separated by spacing and in a larger, bolded font the same as for Core Rules, indicating this is a different section. Now, given that it has been established that it is a separate section and that page 7 for Core rules states "This section contains ALL the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles." You even quoted this rule yourself, so I assume you agree that it's a true statement. Since the statement is only for the Core Rules section, it means that any sections after the Core Rules section are not basic rules since they are not in the Core Rules section. So, if you are referencing rules outside of the core rules section, those are not core rules. I would think such a simple thing as being able to tell when a section in the rule book begins and ends would not be beyond your reading comprehension.

Wow, I think we have Charisoph, col impact and I all agreeing on something. It's the Apocalypse!

 doctortom wrote:
Wow, I think we have Charisoph, col impact and I all agreeing on something. It's the Apocalypse!

I think it's safe to throw fragile and me in that mix as well.

Fair enough, Happyjew. I wouldn't accuse you or fragile of helping trigger the Apocalypse, though.

Wrong again dude.

Per basic vs advanced the basic rules for movement, assault shooting morale apply to all models.

The unit types section is telling the movement, shooting, assault and morale, rules for unit types. It states unit type is an extension of the unit profile, which is located in the core rules section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How am I obfuscating anything?

I WENT to the appendix to try to find advanced rules and it tells me page 13 and the only thing page 13 states is that advanced rules are on army list entries and, that they apply to specific models and then provide some convoluted explanation.

Tell.me how YOU are concluding what is and isn't an advanced rupe.

Just as a note guys, Rad grenades do not specifically state that they do not stack, and in fact the way the rules are written (as per RAW as it where) the grenades do infact stack, but only when multiple units with a model possessing them charge/are charged
However, if multiple models possessing Rad Grenades are within the same unit and it charges/is charged then only one instance of Rad Grenading occurs.

And as a final note I should also mention that I have always run them as stacking, it is the generally accepted interpretation and finally of all watching a squad of Guardsmen beat a unit of T2/1 Marines to death is too funny not to watch.

Ceann wrote:
Wrong again dude.

Per basic vs advanced the basic rules for movement, assault shooting morale apply to all models.

The unit types section is telling the movement, shooting, assault and morale, rules for unit types. It states unit type is an extension of the unit profile, which is located in the core rules section.

Funny, because the very first sentence of Unit Types disagrees with you.

"So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game."

This is found immediately after the core rules section.

Keep reading.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Notice is says so far, and, as they pertain to infantry.

You are now being told how they pertain to not infantry.
Also you are told they are an extension of the main profile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not crazy guys.

Ceann wrote:
Wrong again dude.

Per basic vs advanced the basic rules for movement, assault shooting morale apply to all models.

The unit types section is telling the movement, shooting, assault and morale, rules for unit types. It states unit type is an extension of the unit profile, which is located in the core rules section.

Wrong.

Do you agree that page 7, on the title page for the Core Rules section, states "This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles."

What pages have the core rules? According to the table of contents, the section goes until we hit the Unit Types section on page 61. This is also indicated by the section header on pages 60 and 61. Do you agree that "Unit Types" is a separate section? Remember, this is also how Battlefield Terrain, Preparing for Battle, and the Appendix are separated, so if you don't agree that Unit Types is is different section then you also deny that any of the other sections are different sections and therefore the Appendix also contains core rules.

Everything else you typed is worthless jibber jabber since you are ignoring that the core rules section tells you which section applies. You are ignoring what is on page 13 that you have not quoted - "Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless otherwise stated" "Adanced rules apply to specific types of models,whether...(snip)...or because they are not normal infantry models. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry." The Army List Entry includes unit type. Each unit type does not apply to all models - not all models are infantry, or jetbikes, or artillery. Therefore, they are advanced rules. This is in addtion to being outside the section that we are told contains ALL the basic rules we need. Having A unit type may be a basic rule. WHAT unit type you have is an advanced rule. That should be obvious, since it is not in the core rules section, which is what we are told contains all the basic rules we need. Your saying that it's there by extension would be like saying that since Other Important Information on page 9 mentions that models might have shooting or Melee weapons, or special rules, that shooting weapons, and special rules are all basic rules, or that that since advanced rules are mentioned on page 13, by extension all advanced rules are basic rules, . Your logic has failed there. Go back, look at the quote on page 7, look at the table of contents to see what the section encompasses, then don't bother trying to drag other stuff into that section that's not there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Wrong again dude.

Per basic vs advanced the basic rules for movement, assault shooting morale apply to all models.

The unit types section is telling the movement, shooting, assault and morale, rules for unit types. It states unit type is an extension of the unit profile, which is located in the core rules section.

Funny, because the very first sentence of Unit Types disagrees with you.

"So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game."

This is found immediately after the core rules section.

Good find, thank you! More proof that the core rules section has ended.

Sigh.... or because they are not infantry models. Are you even trying to be intelligent here?

Some until types have fleet, or hammer of wrath, or relentless, or other rules included in their type that are not basic rules. Not because the unit types have NO basic rules.

So if a space marine moves 6 it is a basic rule but if a beast moves 6 it isn't a movement?

Movement is always a basic rule.
Assaults are always a basic rule.
Shooting is always a basic rule.
Morale is always a basic rule.
Being a unit is always a basic rule.

These thing all apply to a beast and all apply to a space marine. The advanced rule notation is to note that some unit types come with baked in special rules without having gotten them from wargear, or a character such as a sergeant purchases an item so he has a rule no one else in the unit has, or some IC with FNP or IWND. You are narrowly reading a couple lines instead of tying things together, the rules are cohesive. It disregards infantry because they have no default special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I have a librarian in terminator armor that joins a group of space marines in PA this is an example of an advanced rule. We have a specific model that advanced rules are being applied too. All of the models still retain all of the basic rules. The librarian will have relentless, the rest of the unit will not, this is an advanced rule scenario.

While I'm enjoying the back and forth about how to read the BRB, I'm still waiting for an answer btw.
I'd really appreciate one. And as just a reminder, I don't care about what a special rule is or isn't. That's beside the point as far as my post is concerned.

I don't like repeating myself but since it's been a while and this is a hot thread I'll re-quote myself here for your convencience.

 Roknar wrote:

Spoiler:

I wasn't talking about special rules at all?

I gave you the RAW and an example on why the grenades presented in the BRB cannot possibly be unusual grenades.

I was trying to understand why you say that they:
1. do not have melee profiles,
2. are not melee weapons.

You completely switched the topic.

One of your initial arguments was that the phrase " as explained below" pertains to unusual grenades, due the the manner they are used in.
That is as a melee weapon.

That makes no sense either way.
If it does refer to the unusual grenades, then it makes no sense to then immediately say that unusual grenades cannot be used as a melee weapon when they just stated that they have to be used as a melee weapon.
On the other hand if all the grenades shown are unusual grenades as you also claimed, then the RAW I posted makes no sense. Either one would have to be wrong.
Either they have melee profiles and are thus not unusual grenades, or they aren't melee weapos, in which case, I have no idea what you think it says on page 40, because then that can't be true.

My main point being: The unusual grenades box stands on it's own and the preceding paragraph does not refer to it. That affects much of what you base your claims on.

I don't often post on DAKKADAKKA - but when I do its to say thanks for the read

Sorry Roknar I know you asked. I am trying to establish how the rules are read before discussing them. I won't forget about you though.

The best example is assault grenades that do not have a profile when assaulting iirc.

Ceann wrote:
Sigh.... or because they are not infantry models. Are you even trying to be intelligent here?

Intelligent enough to know that when they state that all the basic rules you need are in one specific section, you don't go looking in other sections for basic rules You seem to fail the basic comprehension, especially since you apparently didn't comprehend I had a couple of questions for you that you should answer.

Everyone has lots of questions because none of you understand this correctly. I am trying to explain it to you. But you are more concerned about waiting to prove me wrong than trying to understand what I am telling you.

I would hope you would try too.
If you have questions then ask them.

Let me try and simplify this.
Let's say the basic rules are hats shoes shirts and pants.

The basic rules tell you how to wear these so you do not end up with shoes in your hands.

Unit types is telling you about different kinds of hats shoes shirts and pants. You are not being told new basic rules you have already been told all of them. You are being told how these units operate using the the rules.

Just like the weapons used in the core rules are to explain weapon HOW to use weapons, not what all weapons do.

Weapons have types, units have types.

So the units type has the basic rules for those types of units.

If you just look at the unit type section by itself, you will have no idea what those terms mean. The rules are in core rules.

Just like if you looked at the weaponry section without having looked at core rules it would mean nothing to you.

You are being provided values that go into the basic templates provided in core rules.