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Ceann wrote:

No col "boltgun" is not an advanced rule.

The rules disagree with you.



'boltgun' is an advanced rule by virtue of the definition of advanced rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
I am glad that you understand that basic rules apply to all models in the game.

The Unit type rules, vehicle rules, character rules, ranged weapons rules, melee weapons rules, and grenades rules are not basic rules. They are advanced rules, correct?

Advanced rule is a term for a rule describing an ability or special kind of weapon on a specific model that is beyond the ability and rules of basic infantry.

Ceann wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Are there any grenades that say "see Unusual Grenades in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules"?

Not that I am aware of, but that point is moot. I don't need to show you that a condition exists for Rad Grenades to be referred to the Grenades section of the BRB. You need to show me that you have been directed to and have permission to do so with Rad Grenades. We do know that Frag, Krak, Melta, and Haywire require you to reference the BRB, however Rad Grenades do not.

In that case, the only grenades you have permission to use are those specifically found in the rulebook - meltabombs, haywire grenades, plasma grenades, krak grenades, defensive grenades, and frag grenades. Since no "unusual grenade" gives permission to use the rules for "unusual grenades" you are never able to use them.

Forrest gump time.

Happyjew why did you come to this conclusion so quickly?
Uh... because the rules told me too sarge?
Dammit happyjew, your a genius!

It's quite simple. I was told that since Rad Grenades do not direct me to use the Unusual Grenades rules, I do not have permission to use them. I asked for a grenade that does reference the Unusual Grenades rule. I was told there are not any, but it doesn't matter because it is on me to show permission to use those rules. If I need to show permission to use Unusual Grenades, and no unusual grenades specifically direct me the rulebook, the only logical conclusion is that I cannot use said grenades, because there is no permission to follow the rules associated with them. I didn't need to point this out to my sarge, just my chief.

Basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Are we done playing word soup yet?

Ceann wrote:
Basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Are we done playing word soup yet?

The Unit type rules, vehicle rules, character rules, ranged weapons rules, melee weapons rules, and grenades rules are not basic rules. They are advanced rules, correct?

Advanced rule is a term for a rule describing an ability or special kind of weapon on a specific model that is beyond the ability and rules of basic infantry.

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence

model has a special rule - advanced rule takes precedence

special rule - advanced rule

Ceann wrote:
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence

model has a special rule - advanced rule takes precedence

special rule - advanced rule

So when a Jet Pack unit type shows up on an Army List Entry, the Jet Pack unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to that model, correct?

So when a boltgun shows up on an Army List Entry, the boltgun rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to that model so equipped, correct?

And when 'tank' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'tank' rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to that model, correct?

And when 'bike' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'bike' unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to that model, correct?

No Col.
Advanced rules apply to a unit, a unit has fleet, a unit has relentless, a unit has hammer of wrath.

These are listed on an Army List Entry.

Basic rules apply to models.
They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

This is in the basic vs advanced section.

Ceann wrote:
No Col.
Advanced rules apply to a unit, a unit has fleet, a unit has relentless, a unit has hammer of wrath.

These are listed on an Army List Entry.

Basic rules apply to models.
They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

This is in the basic vs advanced section.

The rules disagree with you.

Can we talk about rad grenades now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
No Col.
Advanced rules apply to a unit, a unit has fleet, a unit has relentless, a unit has hammer of wrath.

These are listed on an Army List Entry.

Basic rules apply to models.
They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

This is in the basic vs advanced section.

The rules disagree with you.

Spoiler:

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

Let me help you.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

So when a Jet Pack unit
So when a Jet Pack unit
So when a Jet Pack unit

Unit - unit
Unit - unit
Unit - unit

So when a Jet Pack unit type shows up on an Army List Entry, the Jet Pack unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models in that unit, correct?

So when a boltgun shows up on an Army List Entry, the boltgun rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models so equipped in that unit, correct?

And when 'tank' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'tank' rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the model(s) in the unit, correct?

And when 'bike' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'bike' unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models in that unit, correct?

col_impact wrote:
So when a Jet Pack unit type shows up on an Army List Entry, the Jet Pack unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models in that unit, correct?

So when a boltgun shows up on an Army List Entry, the boltgun rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models so equipped in that unit, correct?

And when 'tank' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'tank' rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the model(s) in the unit, correct?

And when 'bike' shows up on an Army List Entry, the 'bike' unit type rules are advanced rules, since they are specific to the models in that unit, correct?

1. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
If you would like to see what special rules a Jump Pack Unit has check the special rules for jump pack units.

2 BRB Page 156.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

3. Are the tank rules used for movement, shooting, assault or morale? Then they are basic rules.

Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They
include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.

4. Are the bike rules used for movement, shooting, assault or morale? Then they are basic rules.

Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They
include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale.

Ceann wrote:


1. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.
If you would like to see what special rules a Jump Pack Unit has check the special rules for jump pack units.

2 BRB Page 156.
WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.
Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type.
That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using.

3. Are the tank rules used for movement, shooting, assault or morale? Then they are basic rules.

4. Are the bike rules used for movement, shooting, assault or morale? Then they are basic rules.

The rules don't agree with you.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

The BvA rule is clearly not referring to boltgun, character, bike, or tank as basic rules.

The BvA rule is clearly indicating that 'boltgun', 'bike', 'character', and 'tank' are advanced rules, correct?

Can we please talk about rad grenades now Col?
You are going to go through the entire 40k rulebook trying to find a way to link back to unusual grenades.

You have lost like 30 arguments trying to weasel your way into doing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

Ceann wrote:
Can we please talk about rad grenades now Col?
You are going to go through the entire 40k rulebook trying to find a way to link back to unusual grenades.

You have lost like 30 arguments trying to weasel your way into doing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.

The rules don't agree with you.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

The BvA rule is clearly not referring to boltgun, character, bike, or tank as basic rules.

The BvA rule is clearly indicating that 'boltgun', 'bike', 'character', and 'tank' are advanced rules, correct?

Bike rules and tank rules do not apply to all models in the game and so cannot be basic rules.

If you cannot adhere to the correct use of advanced rules then your entire argument is flawed.

No col.
What they are referring to is that certain unit types, listed in the units section.

Have set special rules that come with them.
Not that you get to pick and decide which ones you like.

Beasts have Fleet
Fleet is a special rule
Beasts have fleet because they are not normal infantry models.

Boltguns, there is no weapon called boltguns, there are weapons that are boltguns that have special rules.

Character, Coteaz, has special rules specific to Coteaz.

Basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are playing word soup now Col.
We have come all this way, back to word soup, because you have exhausted intelligent arguments.

Ceann wrote:
No col.
What they are referring to is that certain unit types, listed in the units section.

Have set special rules that come with them.
Not that you get to pick and decide which ones you like.

Beasts have Fleet
Fleet is a special rule
Beasts have fleet because they are not normal infantry models.

Boltguns, there is no weapon called boltguns, there are weapons that are boltguns that have special rules.

Character, Coteaz, has special rules specific to Coteaz.

Basic vs Advanced
The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are playing word soup now Col.
We have come all this way, back to word soup, because you have exhausted intelligent arguments.

The rules don't agree with you.

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

The BvA rule is clearly not referring to boltgun, character, bike, or tank as basic rules.

The BvA rule is clearly indicating that 'boltgun', 'bike', 'character', and 'tank' are advanced rules, correct?

Bike rules and tank rules do not apply to all models in the game and so cannot be basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model.

If you cannot adhere to the correct use of advanced rules then your entire argument is flawed.

Whats an advanced rule Col?
Where do I find them?

Ceann wrote:
Whats an advanced rule Col?
Where do I find them?

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB (with the exception of the Psychic Phase rules which are all Advanced Rules)

Actually you are wrong Col.

Ceann wrote:
Actually you are wrong Col.

The rules agree with me.



Until you adhere to the rules, your argument is invalid.

The splash page, page 7, for Core Rules states...

This SECTION contain ALL the BASIC rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40k battles.

ALL the BASIC rules
ALL BASIC RULES

Whats in the core rules section?
Everything that isn't in the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's.

The splash page, page 155 for Appendix
This section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

section contains ALL of the ADVANCED RULES
ALL ADVANCED RULES

Are any of the things you listed in the Appendix?
No?

Can we move on from word soup now?

Ceann wrote:
The splash page, page 7, for Core Rules states...

This SECTION contains ALL the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40k battles.

The splash page, page 155 for Appendix
This section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and abilitys that you can use to add varierty to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Is Chapter Tactics an Advanced Rule? What about Strength from Death or Power from Pain?

I just wanna talk about rad grenades.

Col wants to move 37 continents, align the stars, perform a cabal ritual sacrifice to make rad grenades into unusual grenades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Either that or I shattered his entire world by demonstrating the only rules in the rulebook that aren't special rules are the ones in the special rules section and he is busy collecting himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is he dead?

Ceann wrote:
The splash page, page 7, for Core Rules states...

This SECTION contain ALL the BASIC rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40k battles.

ALL the BASIC rules
ALL the BASIC rules

Whats in the core rules section?
Everything that isn't in the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's.

That's not correct. Unit Types and onward up to the Appendix are not part of the Core Rules section so they are not basic rules. Similarly, Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle are not part of the Core Rules and so are not basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
The splash page, page 155 for Appendix
This section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES, weaponry and ability's that you can use to add variety to your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES
section contains all of the ADVANCED RULES

Are any of the things you listed in the Appendix?
No?

Can we move on from word soup now?

Cool. So the rules in the Grenade section are advanced rules.

Col, do I still have an argument?
You there buddy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No col, grenades are not advanced rules.
They are weaponry.

Ceann wrote:
Col, do I still have an argument?
You there buddy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No col, grenades are not advanced rules.
They are weaponry.

Any rules in the Grenades section are advanced rules by virtue of being in the Appendix.

A grenade is a special kind of weapon and so it provides access to the grenade advanced rule when a model is equipped with it.

No Col,
There is a comma there.
Advanced rules are separate from weaponry, just like weaponry is separate from ability's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we talk about rad grenades now?

Ceann wrote:
No Col,
There is a comma there.
Advanced rules are separate from weaponry, just like weaponry is separate from ability's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we talk about rad grenades now?

Are the grenade rules in the Appendix or not?

Any rules in the Grenades section are advanced rules by virtue of being in the Appendix.

A grenade is a special kind of weapon and so it provides access to the grenade advanced rule when a model is equipped with it.




And further, what kind of rules are the rules in the Unit Type section? We know that they are not basic rules - they aren't in the Core Rules section.

What is a basic rule?
What is an advanced rule?
What is a special rule?

Where are the advanced rules located in the BRB?

Ceann wrote:
What is a basic rule?
What is an advanced rule?
What is a special rule?

1) Basic rules are in the Core Section.

2) "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)."

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

Advanced rules are found in the Unit Type section and all sections thereafter in the BRB.

That is where we find the rules for bikes, characters, tanks, boltguns, among other things.

3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.