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whembly wrote:At least Louis CK is facing the music honestly.

The last time his response to similar accusations was that it's just rumours (and he was general dismissive of the accusations). Now that it might hit him financially he's apologising.

Frazzled wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Make sure to remember these events the next time someone claims that rape and sexual abuse mainly is a problem among immigrants and that there's no "domestic" rape culture. This gak is everywhere. It permeates society from top to bottom. Wherever there is power there's gakbags ready to abuse that power to hurt others.

This must be a Sweden specific comment. I literally don't know what the feth you are talking about.

Are you sure? I don't want to drag politics into this but just watch the first 40 seconds of this video as a reminder:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Make sure to remember these events the next time someone claims that rape and sexual abuse mainly is a problem among immigrants and that there's no "domestic" rape culture. This gak is everywhere. It permeates society from top to bottom. Wherever there is power there's gakbags ready to abuse that power to hurt others.

Agreed, from #metoo it appears widespread in Europe as well as the US. Sadly just the term 'rape culture' only brings out the worst gak in certain parts of society, instead of leading to a constructive debate.

There is a wide divide between "widespread sexual harassment" and "rape culture" which makes the latter a non-productive label if your goal is constructive debate.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Make sure to remember these events the next time someone claims that rape and sexual abuse mainly is a problem among immigrants and that there's no "domestic" rape culture. This gak is everywhere. It permeates society from top to bottom. Wherever there is power there's gakbags ready to abuse that power to hurt others.

Agreed, from #metoo it appears widespread in Europe as well as the US. Sadly just the term 'rape culture' only brings out the worst gak in certain parts of society, instead of leading to a constructive debate.

There is a wide divide between "widespread sexual harassment" and "rape culture" which makes the latter a non-productive label if your goal is constructive debate.

Rape culture as a concept goes beyond plain rape, in that sense its perhaps an unlucky choice. It includes widespread sexual harassment, but also slut shaming, trivialization of sexual assault,, victim blaming, objectification and normalization of acts such as prison rape (you can even find people advocating for prison rape right here in off-topic). See how many of these cases include any of the above. Rape culture might be an unfortunate term to some, but there is no denying that Western society handles sexual assault relatively poorly.

The dad in the Brock Turner case really was a 'shining' example calling rape "20 minutes of action" his son shouldn't lose his future over. But several judges have also hit headlines in the past years with absolutely eyebrow raising comments.

Gal Gadot has announced that she will walk away from Wonder Woman 2 if Brett Ratner continues to have any involment with the DC Comics and the films.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Rape culture as a concept...

I mostly think you just proved my point by having to expound on the term. Rape is not the social norm, so the term "rape culture" can't stand on its own, if someone accuses a person of rape and the person says "yeah, I did, so what" they're going to become a social punching bag and go to jail. If "rape culture" is a more ethereal term rather than a direct one, instead describing background effects that might lead to a higher incidence of rape, then you're always going to have arguments about its existence and/or severity in society as a whole.

Few deny scumbags exist and are a widespread problem, but "rape culture" is a rather large leap from "scumbags exist".

 Compel wrote:
Gal Gadot has announced that she will walk away from Wonder Woman 2 if Brett Ratner continues to have any involment with the DC Comics and the films.

A hollow threat given WB already severed their partnership with Ratner.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Rape culture as a concept...

I mostly think you just proved my point by having to expound on the term. Rape is not the social norm, so the term "rape culture" can't stand on its own, if someone accuses a person of rape and the person says "yeah, I did, so what" they're going to become a social punching bag and go to jail. If "rape culture" is a more ethereal term rather than a direct one, instead describing background effects that might lead to a higher incidence of rape, then you're always going to have arguments about its existence and/or severity in society as a whole.

Few deny scumbags exist and are a widespread problem, but "rape culture" is a rather large leap from "scumbags exist".

So what? We call it 'sexual assault' culture? Why? The term has existed for decades and is an influential concept in feminism. The problem of sexual assault is widespread, only 20% gets reported. Thats hundreds of thousands of cases, maybe even millions in countries as large as the US. That goes beyond "scumbags exist". Plus the trivialization, victim blaming and people rooting for prison rape gets out on public forums. Its not just dark corners where people hide these opinions, they feel comfortable enough to out them socially. Hell, Moore's defenders are a great recent example of this.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
if someone accuses a person of rape and the person says "yeah, I did, so what" they're going to become a social punching bag and go to jail.

Unless it turns into "look how short her skirt was" or "she just changed her mind" or "she slept with A/B/C/D and liked it, so clearly that slut wanted me too" or "we're married, of course sex happens" or any of the countless other arguments that it wasn't really rape.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Gal Gadot has announced that she will walk away from Wonder Woman 2 if Brett Ratner continues to have any involment with the DC Comics and the films.

A hollow threat given WB already severed their partnership with Ratner.

Apparently they still have a $450 million with the production company that... He owns.

 Peregrine wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
if someone accuses a person of rape and the person says "yeah, I did, so what" they're going to become a social punching bag and go to jail.

Unless it turns into "look how short her skirt was" or "she just changed her mind" or "she slept with A/B/C/D and liked it, so clearly that slut wanted me too" or "we're married, of course sex happens" or any of the countless other arguments that it wasn't really rape.

Then we have cases like Brock Turner, who was caught in the act and only had to serve three months. How many Turner cases don't make the news?

Mario wrote:

whembly wrote:At least Louis CK is facing the music honestly.

The last time his response to similar accusations was that it's just rumours (and he was general dismissive of the accusations). Now that it might hit him financially he's apologising.

Frazzled wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Make sure to remember these events the next time someone claims that rape and sexual abuse mainly is a problem among immigrants and that there's no "domestic" rape culture. This gak is everywhere. It permeates society from top to bottom. Wherever there is power there's gakbags ready to abuse that power to hurt others.

This must be a Sweden specific comment. I literally don't know what the feth you are talking about.

Are you sure? I don't want to drag politics into this but just watch the first 40 seconds of this video as a reminder:

You missed where he said some illegals. We just had an illegal open up with a rifle on drivers on I 35 in Austin the other day.

Honestly, "rape culture" as an academic concept is hardly that outrageous. People get hung up on the "rape" part for some reason and start arguing vehemently against it, but you don't see people arguing against political realism despite the theory's name having much more outrageous implications.

It's almost as if people don't want to accept that there's a massive problem with sexual assault... Y'know, like the concept of "rape culture" posits in the first place.

Its the tried and classic defense of semantics. You see the exact same thing in discussions about climate change, like when someone makes the oh so clever observation that "the weather is always changing." It's missing the forest through the trees.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Rape culture as a concept...

I mostly think you just proved my point by having to expound on the term. Rape is not the social norm, so the term "rape culture" can't stand on its own, if someone accuses a person of rape and the person says "yeah, I did, so what" they're going to become a social punching bag and go to jail. If "rape culture" is a more ethereal term rather than a direct one, instead describing background effects that might lead to a higher incidence of rape, then you're always going to have arguments about its existence and/or severity in society as a whole.

Few deny scumbags exist and are a widespread problem, but "rape culture" is a rather large leap from "scumbags exist".

So what? We call it 'sexual assault' culture? Why?

Because, IMO at least, the term "rape culture" should probably be reserved as a description of times where rape IS accepted and normalised. When you hear about comfort women in WW2 or sex slaves or women raped and murdered in honour killings, thank feth we don't live in a society that sort of crap is considered anything less than disgusting and abhorrent.

Maybe I'm just trying to be overly optimistic but I'm happy if nothing else that on the whole people do want to string up the scumbags who use their power to take advantage of others, to me that's encouraging because it shows we don't live in a culture that could be described as a "rape culture" other than as being hyperbole (and inflammatory hyperbole is rarely a great way to start a productive discussion).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:
Its the tried and classic defense of semantics. You see the exact same thing in discussions about climate change, like when someone makes the oh so clever observation that "the weather is always changing." It's missing the forest through the trees.

I'm not going to get in to your climate change analogy because, well, what's the point... but language is important. It is totally debatable that items one person considers as contributing to "rape culture" actually does increase likelihood or decrease perceived severity of rape, so if you want a meaningful discussion then discuss those items instead of using catch phrases that will only reinforce a person's stance (either for or against yours).

Anyone seeking to have a meaningful discussion about something should be able to see that language is important. If all you want to do is further ingrain existing divides, sure, use whatever language you like, but then don't cry about how meaningful discussion is quashed by it.

The argument about the legitimacy of the "rape culture" concept derives from a reluctance to admit that sexual discrimination, harassment and assault is much more widespread than many people believe.

Therefore when such a case occurs various reasons are put forward to deny the existence of the overarching acceptance by society of predominantly male predation on women.

"It's just locker room talk."
"All I did was put my hand on her knee."
"She was asking for it, flaunting herself in that kind of dress."

And so on, and so on.

The fact is, these kind of attentions have never been acceptable to women, they are things that women have been forced to put up with due to the imbalance of power in society.

Things have changed a lot in the past 20 years, and there are a lot of older men around who may have done these and got away with it. Now it's no longer acceptable to do these things and the chickens are coming home to roost.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A hollow threat given WB already severed their partnership with Ratner.

WB and Ratner agreed Ratner would not be involved in any film as a director. But Ratner co-owns a financing company with Steve Mnuchin (Trump's Treasury Secretary) and James Packer (the Australian billionaire). They fund somewhere around 25% of most major WB films, including the original Wonder Woman and a whole bunch of other WB films outside the DC stable (like Gravity and the Lego Movies).

Gal Gadot is saying she won't sign for another WW unless WB stops its financing deal with Ratner RatPac-Dune entirely. For WB that's a massive demand, there RatPac-Dune can have several hundred million shuffling around in WB films at any one tme, you can't just find a replacement financing partner on that scale by putting an ad in the paper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
You missed where he said some illegals.

Don't do that. You know full well what Trump intended people to hear, and you know exactly what the audience heard. Sneaking weasel words in there doesn't change the message.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Rape culture as a concept...

I mostly think you just proved my point by having to expound on the term. Rape is not the social norm, so the term "rape culture" can't stand on its own, if someone accuses a person of rape and the person says "yeah, I did, so what" they're going to become a social punching bag and go to jail. If "rape culture" is a more ethereal term rather than a direct one, instead describing background effects that might lead to a higher incidence of rape, then you're always going to have arguments about its existence and/or severity in society as a whole.

Few deny scumbags exist and are a widespread problem, but "rape culture" is a rather large leap from "scumbags exist".

So what? We call it 'sexual assault' culture? Why?

Because, IMO at least, the term "rape culture" should probably be reserved as a description of times where rape IS accepted and normalised. When you hear about comfort women in WW2 or sex slaves or women raped and murdered in honour killings, thank feth we don't live in a society that sort of crap is considered anything less than disgusting and abhorrent.

Maybe I'm just trying to be overly optimistic but I'm happy if nothing else that on the whole people do want to string up the scumbags who use their power to take advantage of others, to me that's encouraging because it shows we don't live in a culture that could be described as a "rape culture" other than as being hyperbole (and inflammatory hyperbole is rarely a great way to start a productive discussion).

No, again the term wasn't made to cover those things. What you mention also falls under what we call war crimes and sex slavery/trafficking, which would/should be the terms used in those cases. You just take issue with the rape part, so you want to call it sexual assault culture because you're uncomfortable with using a strong expression of sexual assault (i.e. rape) as the name for the wider concept? It draws the attention, its a strong term that makes people uncomfortable, but that is the name chosen. Like AlmightyWalrus mentions, we use the term realism in a variety of acedemic concepts, that have no reflection on the actual underlying meaning, should we change all terms like that?

Hahaha wait what, string up the scumbags? This is a joke right? All they have suffered in most cases mentioned here is the loss of their careers and/or reputations, they are still rich and free. Hell, sexual assault won't stand in the way of gaining the presidency or election to the senate! Most rapists won't even get convicted or put on trial because victims don't want to come forward in this society. You take issue with the term rape culture, but then continue with a naive view of what happens to rapists. In most cases its he said, she said and guess who they will believe? Because as Peregrine points out, character assasination is still a pretty good way to get people to blame the victim.

PS: why only argue semantics, and not the millions of likely victims that show its not just a "scumbags exists", societal acceptance of prison rape as punishment, trivialization in politics and other parts of rape culture? Your argument seems to be that we don't live in a 'sexual assault' culture that we tend to turn a blind eye to?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Because, IMO at least, the term "rape culture" should probably be reserved as a description of times where rape IS accepted and normalised. When you hear about comfort women in WW2 or sex slaves or women raped and murdered in honour killings, thank feth we don't live in a society that sort of crap is considered anything less than disgusting and abhorrent.

Maybe I'm just trying to be overly optimistic but I'm happy if nothing else that on the whole people do want to string up the scumbags who use their power to take advantage of others, to me that's encouraging because it shows we don't live in a culture that could be described as a "rape culture" other than as being hyperbole (and inflammatory hyperbole is rarely a great way to start a productive discussion).

Right now there have been defenses of Moore that relations between a man over 30 and a 14 year old is biblically okay. Another Alabama official said the accusers should be prosecuted. Meanwhile on FOX News Hannity is trying to discredit the accuser by claiming most claims like this are lies.

Those sorts of attacks on the accuser are pretty common (well maybe not the biblical one, that was pretty amazing). So there is a culture that punishes people for speaking out, which allows abusers to offend again and again. You are right that the issue is nowhere near comfort women, but the difference is not one of type, but merely degrees.

 sebster wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Because, IMO at least, the term "rape culture" should probably be reserved as a description of times where rape IS accepted and normalised. When you hear about comfort women in WW2 or sex slaves or women raped and murdered in honour killings, thank feth we don't live in a society that sort of crap is considered anything less than disgusting and abhorrent.

Maybe I'm just trying to be overly optimistic but I'm happy if nothing else that on the whole people do want to string up the scumbags who use their power to take advantage of others, to me that's encouraging because it shows we don't live in a culture that could be described as a "rape culture" other than as being hyperbole (and inflammatory hyperbole is rarely a great way to start a productive discussion).

Right now there have been defenses of Moore that relations between a man over 30 and a 14 year old is biblically okay. Another Alabama official said the accusers should be prosecuted. Meanwhile on FOX News Hannity is trying to discredit the accuser by claiming most claims like this are lies.

Those sorts of attacks on the accuser are pretty common (well maybe not the biblical one, that was pretty amazing). So there is a culture that punishes people for speaking out, which allows abusers to offend again and again. You are right that the issue is nowhere near comfort women, but the difference is not one of type, but merely degrees.

Well put. I'd like to add that those sorts of attacks/opinions are held through sections of the public. A public that includes law enforcement and the judiciary system (just a part of course). Which has a significant impact as these are the institutions we turn to for justice. But then we get 'gems' like "why didn't you close your legs", "sometimes sex hurts" and "is it rape if you don't scream/struggle?". I kid people not, those have been some comments by judges over the years made to the victim. Even if those comments aren't rape they are part of the wider opinions around sexual assault, how are they not terribly problematic to hold in such positions? What will victims think reading about that if they haven't reported their own case yet? How many hold these views subconciously and don't voice them and subsequently get removed from their positions?

It is all part of rape culture. Not only to tacitly sanction sexual harassment against women, but also to discourage complaints when they occur.

 Frazzled wrote:


You missed where he said some illegals. We just had an illegal open up with a rifle on drivers on I 35 in Austin the other day.

You mean where he said "some are good people" the rest are rapists and criminals.

whats the difference when an 'illegal" shoots up a place as opposed to any other American? None at all I'd guess.
here's your thoughts & prayers.

anywho back on topic, I thought we were past the rape culture until trump got elected, weeiner got reelected, and moore gets defended. Also the war on women that the R's have been waging for decades now. It's pretty clear now that America has a problem with how women are treated.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is all part of rape culture. Not only to tacitly sanction sexual harassment against women, but also to discourage complaints when they occur.

Yes, its what people tend to forget when they focus too much on a single word instead of the concept.

sirlynchmob wrote:
anywho back on topic, I thought we were past the rape culture until trump got elected, weeiner got reelected, and moore gets defended. Also the war on women that the R's have been waging for decades now. It's pretty clear now that America has a problem with how women are treated.

While rights of women (mainly relating to birth control) are a politically contentious issue in the US, more so than most of Western Europe, the #metoo movement has shown that society wise Western Europe is pretty bad too. Its not enough that politics are progressive/liberal on this (although its a great start). Just accepting it happens on the political stage isn't enough to tackle it in society, let alone in other organizational structures and institutions such as media and business.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Its the tried and classic defense of semantics. You see the exact same thing in discussions about climate change, like when someone makes the oh so clever observation that "the weather is always changing." It's missing the forest through the trees.

I'm not going to get in to your climate change analogy because, well, what's the point... but language is important. It is totally debatable that items one person considers as contributing to "rape culture" actually does increase likelihood or decrease perceived severity of rape, so if you want a meaningful discussion then discuss those items instead of using catch phrases that will only reinforce a person's stance (either for or against yours).

Anyone seeking to have a meaningful discussion about something should be able to see that language is important. If all you want to do is further ingrain existing divides, sure, use whatever language you like, but then don't cry about how meaningful discussion is quashed by it.

Thanks for providing an excellent example of what I'm talking about

Anyone seeking to have a meaningful discussion would have the intellectual maturity to push past the semantic to explore underlying conception, not just argue a banal and purposefully dismissive position about hwo "language is important." Meaning is important, and language is merely a tool to convey it. Turning language into an arbitrarily rigid rock with which to beat ideas you dislike isn't insightful or clever, but it is a great way to quash meaningful discussion while claiming a intellectual high ground that hasn't been earned.

So good job. You claim that high ground


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sebster wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A hollow threat given WB already severed their partnership with Ratner.

WB and Ratner agreed Ratner would not be involved in any film as a director. But Ratner co-owns a financing company with Steve Mnuchin (Trump's Treasury Secretary) and James Packer (the Australian billionaire). They fund somewhere around 25% of most major WB films, including the original Wonder Woman and a whole bunch of other WB films outside the DC stable (like Gravity and the Lego Movies).

Gal Gadot is saying she won't sign for another WW unless WB stops its financing deal with Ratner RatPac-Dune entirely. For WB that's a massive demand, there RatPac-Dune can have several hundred million shuffling around in WB films at any one tme, you can't just find a replacement financing partner on that scale by putting an ad in the paper.

Points for being ballsy I guess, but I'm not so sure that one will pan out.

Is because rape culture that we see things like this:



And we make hundreds of excuses to convince ourselves that it was totally normal, you know! And we saw that kind of thing all the time. Go to a park, take look in the bus, or in the subway. You'll see cases of sexual harassment everywhere. Some minor, others worse, but all carefully subtle so people aroud it don't notice.

I spend two weeks counting that when I was in Madrid (The capital of spain, many people, and nobody pay attention to other people) and my media at the end was 6.5 sexual harassments a day. Most of those where in the morning, on the Subway. The amount of people randomly touching the ass of a woman, just to see how the woman tensed, without even trying to see who had touched her, was disgusting.
I stoped paying attention to that kind of things, really. It was depressing.

Probably worth ignoring anyone arguing that we should avoid 'catchphrases' like rape culture. They might as well be saying 'male gaze? What you talking about? Women have eyes, too!'.

 djones520 wrote:
Looks like George Takei has been added to the list now.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/george-takei-accused-sexually-assaulting-model-1981-1056698

A pretty detailed story, with accusations of being drugged as well.

It's so hard to tell with stuff like this. It's really just one word versus another.

Oh, my!

Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is all part of rape culture. Not only to tacitly sanction sexual harassment against women, but also to discourage complaints when they occur.

Yes, its what people tend to forget when they focus too much on a single word instead of the concept.

One could also think of rape culture as shorthand for "a culture that makes life easier for (would be) rapists and sexual harassers and enables them even if that culture is superficially/technically against it and that culture often lets them get away with it". Rape culture is just a bit shorter and easier to handle and more of a technical term that's not commonly used in general small talk.

Relapse wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Looks like George Takei has been added to the list now.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/george-takei-accused-sexually-assaulting-model-1981-1056698

A pretty detailed story, with accusations of being drugged as well.

It's so hard to tell with stuff like this. It's really just one word versus another.

Oh, my!

Hey we can do better than that!

I think this is the first one I've been kind of less believing of. - But then, that's part of the whole thing, isn't it?

It's worth saying that this is the first of the recent ones that someone has come out saying, "no this is horse****" Not just a, "oh, I was drunk, I don't remember" or "the bible says it's ok" but a very strenuous denial of anything of the sort.

The other thing is, Takei is, some would say, a very easy target for such a thing. Being non-white, gay, an opponent to the current establishment...

Overall, I honestly don't know what to think of this one...


Well, I guess there's the "Allison Mack" allegations too, which I'm kinda surprised hasn't gotten more traction over all. But that whole thing is just firmly in the area of 'completely bizarre to comprehend' to me.

I could swear though that I've heard about people making accusations of George Takei before. Am I imagining that?